Sans' dodging ability

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I've been wondering how does Sans' dodging works in VS Debating terms?

I mean, here its considered that Sans is just much faster than Chara. However, given the fact that Chara can still dodges Sans' attacks despite the supposed speed difference, which makes it seems unlikely that it is only speed.

Morseo that Chara couldn't hit Sans at all, even while the later was sleeping.

In in-game terms, Sans is dodging while its your turn, so you can't do anything about it. Also in in-game terms, you can't hit Sans unless you break not one, but TWO game rules. Namely, you attack while it is HIS turn, but you attack twice in a turn.

The problem is that it can't really be translated into a real battle. I mean, we do know that Sans couldn't be hit by someone taking him off guard even while breaking a game rules (Basically reality warping), they had to break two of them.

 

[DontTalk]

Its nothing special to have a battle in which both characters can dodge each others attacks reliably.

Furthermore Sans uses projectiles to attack but obviously dodges using his own body. The skills are just different.

I actually don't think that canon wise chara necessarily is even capable of keeping up with sans attacks, but just learns them over time btw. That is one of the problems with such mechanics, you don't know which is the canon amount of repeats chara needed to defeat sans.

Sans dodging while sleeping is questionable I believe he could very well just be acting to fool chara, you know he is the type of guy to do that. If not it is still just the ability to be observent while asleep.


So yeah, in vs terms nothing special happens here, just normal dodging.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

But it's something special when the character in question has an ability that makes them essentially untouchable by in-game standards.

Fooling Chara at this point wouldn't really gives him anything much tho, except just for fun. He was also legit tired at this point.

 

[DontTalk]

Na, making someone untouchable by ingame standards is no ability.

There are a bunch of RPG's out there that have something like the final boss fighting you at some point very early in the game, when you can just not do anything since the boss keeps dodging the whole time (or you do no damage).

This case is pretty much the same, especially given that the only attacking once in a turn game mechanic plays in sans favour here, which it wouldn't in a real battle.

So sans is good in dodging (or actually is the only character that actively tries to) and that is all.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well yeah I know that Sans isn't the only one doing that, but Sans is the only one in the whole game that ever does this, dodging in the other person's turn.

In the case of a character using game mechanics in battle, shouldn't it be "translated" into a real fight situation? I mean it's very unlikely Undertale characters follows Turn by Turn stuff in actual battle, yet Sans can still dodges in one's turn.

 

[DontTalk]

Sans whole battle (or actually the whole of undertale at times) is meta-fictional.

It might very well be that that he actually just moves out of the way of the attack that goes exactly in the center of the screen, as that is the only thing possible per game mechanics (in a 1 on 1 battle) and can in game mechanics dodge everything like that.

But that really doesn't account for anything outside game mechanics. (this interpretation wouldn't even give good dodging abilities).

The interpretation that they are actually not fighting like this would make the whole turn based system with sans simply waiting something that could not occure. Undertale at this point is just that meta fictional, no way around that.


And game mechanics not translating into real fight situations is the whole point of distinguishing them as game mechanics. Else the fact that no one else in undertale dodges would also have to be translated into a actual fight situation, which would mean that they actually can not dodge attacks and, I think, also always move second. So yeah, that is just not how you can do things.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Game mechanics are not usually translated because they are what they are, and thus not canon.

However, here the whole reasons why Sans' fight is so long is because he is dodging attacks, something that doesn't happen usaully.

It's clear that the real fights in Undertale aren't turn by turn (Proven by Undyng attacking you repeadtly in the overworld) however, Sans is able to win a fight he shouldn't be able to normally by doing something he shouldn't be able to normally. Despite the fact that yes game mechanics are mentioned directly by Sans, they clearly do not happen "normally". Sans just knows how this world works and how to bypass its rule. Very few people knows how to do it (Flowey, Gerson, Sans etc,)

 

[DontTalk]

With which we can conclude that sans fight is even game mechanics in-game. So even in an actual in-game battle it wouldn't happen like that, but just in sans meta-fiction battle.

So again, in a real battle it translates to nothing.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

So, what? Sans is only able to fight correctly in a meta-fiction battle? The whole game is meta-fictional, yet only a few characters knows that fact and can exploit it, with Sans being one of them. Undyne, Papyrus, Mad Dummy, or any other characters doesn't knows about save or game mechanics, thus fights "normally", while Sans knows what's going on due to Science and can exploit it.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Just my two cents on the matter.

When Sans does nothing in his turn the player is completely unable in moving to the far sides of the box due to Sans warping them back into the center to stop them from escaping. When Sans is tired he is legitematly sleeping and would explain why he no longer warps the player back to the center again while they are pushing the box onto the fight button.

But yeah I don't see how San's dodging really applies to anything but reaction speeds etc. Which would only be Relat-ftl from Chara powerscaling.

 

[DontTalk]

-Stuff-

Yeah, but the whole center of the argument is the fact that you are trying to somehow give him some special ability because of that.

So I much agree with Austrian-Man-Meat that it doesn't apply to anything except sans being comparable to chara in speed.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

But that's what it is in the game's canon: A special ability. No one without special knowledge/power can uses game mechanics to their own advantage. His knowledge of the 4th Wall and him abusing it is the only reasons he stands a chance against Chara will no one else can.

 

[DontTalk]

4th wall awareness doesn't have any use in a vs battle, since it is assumed to play in a world that doesn't follow the laws of either one of the fictions involved (else main characters would always win due to law of narrative causality and RPG characters could only attack once per turn).

So it is an ability that is only useful if you say in a vs battle that the game mechanics of undertale are used.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

But as you said yourself, Undertale is meta fictional. The 4th Wall practically doesn't exists. Save and Load is an actual ability, The Player is an actual character and general 4th Wall breaking is an important and constant plot point there.

Unlike a game where a character breaking the 4th wall isn't taken as nothing more than a big joke

 

[DontTalk]

And what does that matter?

Which ability do you even intent to give sans exactly?

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

And what does that matter?
Which ability do you even intent to give sans exactly?

Yea. Where is this whole thing going?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Simply put: No characters in the game perceives the game like a game (instead perceiving it normally like us) except a few characters who then exploit the heck outta it.

Well the whole point of that thread was to discuss how it would translate in an actual fight. Basically, Sans dodges everything thrown at him, even when blatantly taken off guard. Only breaking the game's rules twice in a row was useful in hitting him. Again, a normal character wouldn't see the game as a game, and things like breaking the rules of the game would be like breaking the rules of reality AKA reality warping.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Simply put: No characters in the game perceives the game like a game (instead perceiving it normally like us) except a few characters who then exploit the heck outta it.
Well the whole point of that thread was to discuss how it would translate in an actual fight. Basically, Sans dodges everything thrown at him, even when blatantly taken off guard. Only breaking the game's rules twice in a row was useful in hitting him. Again, a normal character wouldn't see the game as a game, and things like breaking the rules of the game would be like breaking the rules of reality AKA reality warping.

So from this. You're trying to say that the only way to truly land a hit on Sans is to use reality warping?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Not the only way, but trying to be simply faster than him wouldn't really work. For example spatial hax would most likely do the trick. But again, "translating" it is hard

 

[DontTalk]

So the ability to always be faster than your opponent?


Edit: Either way the answer is no. Just because something is scripted in such a way it isn't an official ability. Bring proof of that being a stated ability and not just sans being fast or this won't go anywhere.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well given that Sans dodges while its your turn, it seems more like time hax (Dodging whitin a time not physically possible). Again, it seems to work even when he shouldn't be able to react, so I don't think it would affect his actual reaction time.

 

[DontTalk]

Solid proof for any of this or it won't fly.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well I could say that Sans has shown actual space-time related hax before but I guess it won't work.

The thing is that trying to "translate" what is pretty much canon gameplay mechanic exploitation is hard without basically some assumption.

 

[DontTalk]

Sans demonstrated teleportation, no proof for any of that.

So really, as long as the characters aren't mentioned to have anything so noteworthy it is useless to argue that, at the very least against me.

 

[SomebodyData]

Well I could say that Sans has shown actual space-time related hax before but I guess it won't work.
The thing is that trying to "translate" what is pretty much canon gameplay mechanic exploitation is hard without basically some assumption.

If I may place my two cents in the matter, "assumation" would be an underestimation of the stretching of the situation. When I first fought Sans, I thought he was just abusing standard rpg gameplay mechanics (i.e. minimum of one damage per attack) and considering how Undertale works, I originally thought that San's unique ability to actually dodge was a sort of refrence to how in most rpgs the monsters dont actually move. Here however, is an entirely different guess, with Karmic Retruibution's affects and etc...

What I'm trying to say is that the use of guesses and interpertations of the series are all we have, but that doesn't qualify to the standards set by VsBattles.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The thing is, again, we have a character fully capable of abusing game mechanics in a world without such things usually (And with game mechanics being partially canon in said verse). We can't really ignore a huge part of that character's ability.

 

[DontTalk]

It is not a world without such a thing usually. The world usually has such a thing just that most people in the world are not aware of it.

And it is not "a huge part of that character's ability" since it isn't an ability he has, it is a piece of meta-comedy. If the author would have intended it differently he maybe would have given you proper proof for your points instead of speculations which need a bunch of assumptions.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It's not just a piece of meta-comedy. It's most of the reasons why Sans even stands a chance against Chara. If he didn't abuse invincibility time, dodging mechanics or turn mechanics, the fight will have ended in a single turn. And it's not like he was the first to do this.

 

[DontTalk]

Get solid proof of anything of that working in the exact way you claim in a enviroment that doesn't have the game mechanics of undertale or drop it.

I am rather tired of discussing this speculation.