Sanji's COO upgrade

[Lgamer099_99]

I've always said that Sanji had to be capable of seeing in the future to dodge Katakuri's attack, but now it is officialy confirmed by Vivrecard that Sanji can see in the future even more than Katakuri.

According to One Piece " data book _ Viver Card-Index", it seems that Sanji can also use the power of Observation haki to "see the future."
The image is seen in Moore Haki and Sanji dodges the attack of Charlotte Katakur (who can see several directions from the future). And Sanji seems to see the future more than Katakuri.

Translation of the last sentence:
"Some may see a more distant future through focus."

 

[KingTempest]

Oh

WOW

 

[Damage3245]

That doesn't seem to be a full translation of the whole quote there.

 

[KingTempest]

気配や感情の動きを読み取
る事で、周囲の状況を把握
したり危険を回避できる。
並々ならぬ鍛錬により少し
先の未来を見る者もいる。

 

[Lgamer099_99]

If this can help, the page of general COO is another one, so that page is literally the confirmation of Sanji having future sight, it was a battle of COO between Katakuri and the cook, and Sanji won it. About the translation, it is not mine, the source is One Piece family.

 

[Damage3245]

That just seems like confirmation that Sanji has future sight; not that he has a higher level of future sight than Katakuri.

 

[Axxtentacle]

That’s still an upgrade to what he currently has right? I’m fine with the upgrade itself, even if it being > Katakuri’s is questionable.

 

[XDragnoir]

That’s still an upgrade to what he currently has right? I’m fine with the upgrade itself, even if it being > Katakuri’s is questionable.

I agree it is a bit questionable, but Sanji still won the "prediction battle", so it isn't wrong to say he outpredicted Katakuri (i.e > Katakuri).

 

[KingTempest]

I agree it is a bit questionable, but Sanji still won the "prediction battle", so it isn't wrong to say he outpredicted Katakuri (i.e > Katakuri).

Question.

How do we count "prediction battles" in the wiki?

 

[Axxtentacle]

If people are questioning whether or not his future sight is better than Katakuri’s we could just call them comparable/near-equals and call it a day, since the statement is a bit vague.

 

[XDragnoir]

Question.

How do we count "prediction battles" in the wiki?

I don't think they work out of verse at all, someone may be able to see further ahead and that's it.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Any objections to my suggestion? I’m most curious to see if Damage has anything to say about it.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

If people are questioning whether or not his future sight is better than Katakuri’s we could just call them comparable/near-equals and call it a day, since the statement is a bit vague.

Reasonable.

 

[Damage3245]

I think we should just list Sanji as an Advanced User of Observation Haki. I don't think we need to mention him being comparable to Katakuri, especially since it is just one feat so far.

EDIT: Although we do list that Proficient users can see glimpses into the future.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I don’t really understand the line of thinking that gets you to that. The feat blatantly puts him as comparable, why shouldn’t it be mentioned?

 

[XDragnoir]

Yeah, i really doubt Sanji would be able to do that with Katakuri if he was worse than him at it. And i really doubt we can call "hax" things as outliers (and thus not use them for scaling), it isn't like Sanji never used COO before and suddenly "blitzed" Kata

 

[LordGinSama]

Honestly fine with Sanji having better Kenbunshoku Haki.


Post Katakuri Luffy has Kenbunshoku comparable to Katakuri himself and Luffy himself regards Sanji as having the better Kenbunshoku.



Luffy and Kata matched one another, Sanji would have needed to seen further into the future in order to dodge his attack.

 

[Eminiteable]

Honestly fine with Sanji having better Kenbunshoku Haki.

Post Katakuri Luffy has Kenbunshoku comparable to Katakuri himself and Luffy himself regards Sanji as having the better Kenbunshoku.

Luffy and Kata matched one another, Sanji would have needed to seen further into the future in order to dodge his attack.

I agree with Advanced Observation + it being greater than Katakuri's.

 

[KingTempest]

Felt hella skeptical about it, but he has the feats to prove it, so I say that he should get it if it says it.

I'm curious about the Kenbun counter, I'll research that, but for now I think this is good to apply.

 

[Damage3245]

Felt hella skeptical about it, but he has the feats to prove it, so I say that he should get it if it says it.

He has one feat of evading Katakuri's attack.

But Luffy could also dodge Katakuri's attack before he unlocked future sight comparable to Katakuri's.

 

[KingTempest]

He has one feat of evading Katakuri's attack.

He was also implied to have better Kenbun than Luffy in Wano

But Luffy could also dodge Katakuri's attack before he unlocked future sight comparable to Katakuri's.

The difference is that Katakuri foresaw Sanji not getting hit, and Sanji negated (I don't' know the word) that future. The only time Katakuri emphasizes it with Luffy is when Luffy starts using future sight.

 

[joshpiece]

Wow kinda hard to believe, but the proof is right there so 100% agree and Sanji’s should be comparable or better than Kat’s

 

[Damage3245]

Wow kinda hard to believe, but the proof is right there so 100% agree and Sanji’s should be comparable or better than Kat’s

Better than Katakuri is still a stretch, though I accept that Sanji should have future sight.

Katakuri fights consistently with future sight, but Sanji's usage of future sight has been rarely brought up and not even directly commented on in the series itself. Luffy could also fight Katakuri before he developed his Observation Haki to be equal to his.

For Sanji to have superior Haki to Katakuri requires more evidence.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I'm just pushing for comparable, not superior. I thought that was better.

 

[KingTempest]

Let's be fair.

We don't even measure the levels of haki outside of "Inept, Rudimentary, Proficient, and Advanced".

It doesn't matter if it's better, comparable, or worse, because we don't have a place to say "well he can see 1.2345678987654321 seconds into the future", we just say "Advanced", simple.

 

[joshpiece]

Katakuri fights consistently with future sight, but Sanji's usage of future sight has been rarely brought up and not even directly commented on in the series itself.

For Sanji to have superior Haki to Katakuri requires more evidence.

Fair, Although the vivre card is specifically for what Oda doesn’t have time for in the manga.

Wanna clarify I’m fine with just placing them on the same level as Advanced, just taking the statement literal as Sanji can see more into the future than Kat.

 

[XDragnoir]

I think we should just list Sanji as an Advanced User of Observation Haki. I don't think we need to mention him being comparable to Katakuri, especially since it is just one feat so far.

EDIT: Although we do list that Proficient users can see glimpses into the future.

I am nearly sure we have Proficient as "can see glimpses" exactly because Sanji was accepted to do that but we never had proof of his level being Advanced, Luffy couldn't do that until he got to the level of Katakuri.

 

[joshpiece]

Luffy’s page says he matched Kat in the field of observation. With Luffy implying that Sanji has better observation haki than him and the Vivre card stating that he sees the future more than Kat. I think it’s pretty justified to have Sanji’s observation over Kat’s.

 

[Damage3245]

I am nearly sure we have Proficient as "can see glimpses" exactly because Sanji was accepted to do that but we never had proof of his level being Advanced, Luffy couldn't do that until he got to the level of Katakuri.

It's implied Luffy could get a glimpse of the future in Marineford when fighting Mihawk.

Though he was untrained at that point.

 

[CinCameron20]

(I thought we already had FS for Sanji) I briefly skimmed the thread after reading the OP, so I may have missed some discussion.

Sanji dodging Katakuri's jelly-bean does not suggest he has comparable/superior Haki to him.

1) We are led to believe Kenbun's FS mechanic can only see a linear time-line to events currently transpiring:

Katakuri: Sees Sanji evade the Priest's shot.
Katakuri interrupts this future via prior knowledge by shooting the jelly bean.
Sanji: Sees a future of himself being shot by Katakuri as a result of the interruption.
Katakuri is surprised.

We can't say Sanji's Future-sight is superior to Katakuri's based on this.

2) Sanji avoided a projectile which needed to travel a distance of dozens of meters to reach him, and all he had to do was move literal centimeters to avoid being touched.

2.5) LUFFY DOES THE SAME TYPE OF EVASION VS KATAKURI'S SPEAR WAY BEFORE HE DECIDED TO DEVELOP HIS KENBUNSHOKU TO MATCH KATAKURI'S. Point is, Sanji has no business somehow being *somehow Katakuri's superior in FS (edit: idk why i blanked this out in the initial post).

Conclusion: Sanji has some level of future-sight, yes. There's no reason to scale him to Katakuri just by narrowly dodging a projectile shot from like 80x the distance he needed to move his body.

 

[CinCameron20]

Luffy’s page says he matched Kat in the field of observation. With Luffy implying that Sanji has better observation haki than him and the Vivre card stating that he sees the future more than Kat. I think it’s pretty justified to have Sanji’s observation over Kat’s.

This is clearly false since Sanji only reacted to a woman in danger. Not a strong opponent in the direction he went. Jinbe and Luffy misunderstood his intentions.

Also, even if this rang true, it would only apply to Sanji's sensory abilities being > Luffy's--not applying to Future-sight (Katakuri's sensory powers suck hard feat-wise).

 

[joshpiece]

(I thought we already had FS for Sanji) I briefly skimmed the thread after reading the OP, so I may have missed some discussion.

Sanji dodging Katakuri's jelly-bean does not suggest he has comparable/superior Haki to him.

Conclusion: Sanji has some level of future-sight, yes. There's no reason to scale him to Katakuri just by narrowly dodging a projectile shot from like 80x the distance he needed to move his body.

This is what the wiki has for Sanji “see briefly into the future on a whim”

I agree that the Jelly-bean feat isn’t evidence to prove Sanji’s FS is better than Kat’s

This is clearly false since Sanji only reacted to a woman in danger. Not a strong opponent in the direction he went. Jinbe and Luffy misunderstood his intentions.

Also, even if this rang true, it would only apply to Sanji's sensory abilities being > Luffy's--not applying to Future-sight (Katakuri's sensory powers suck hard feat-wise).

Fair.

My question/problem with not having Sanji’s FS comparable/better than Kat’s is what was Oda’s point in name dropping and saying he sees the future more than him. What other evidence would we need to prove said claim. it’s not like Kat and Sanji are going to have a showdown on panel and try to see who can see more of the future.

 

[KingTempest]

Since Databook says Sanji had Advanced CoO, someone can apply it I'm assuming.

Arguing who has better CoO is a topic for the general threads. So until we start measuring how many seconds into the future each user can see, then this topic should be closed and applied to Sanji (then the Haki page should remove him from the proficient rating to the advanced).

 

[CinCameron20]

Since Databook says Sanji had Advanced CoO, someone can apply it I'm assuming.

Arguing who has better CoO is a topic for the general threads. So until we start measuring how many seconds into the future each user can see, then this topic should be closed and applied to Sanji (then the Haki page should remove him from the proficient rating to the advanced).

I am unsure if FS alone is an advanced application of Kenbunshoku, rather a different category under the ability.

Katakuri's application was considered advanced because he could consistently see several seconds into the future after training the ability so much (yet, as I've pointed out, his sensory feats are PRETTY BAD in comparison).

But if we have FS listed as an advanced ability, it should be fine to give that to Sanji. But keep in mind other Haki users have some feats of FS despite being way below Katakuri in application.

 

[KingTempest]

No one applied this? Mannnnn