Sakura CRT

[KaydeeX]

VHD crt when?

Imma touch you

 

[Tdjwo]

I never said SoHS scales to Naruto and Sasuke's peak forms
I said she only she scales to the forms of Naruto and Sasuke shown in the databook but that doesn't mean her peak (Byakugo Enhanced) caps at that

Her peak (Byakugo Enhanced) doesn't have any concrete placement. Sure, she might not cap at the forms of Naruto and Sasuke shown in the databook, but she also doesn't have any concrete feat that puts her to any other stronger form of Nard and Sasuke. She only has plethora of anti-feats which some of it has been addressed by US69 and I. At best, she has an unquantifiable superiority over her SoHS version.

I'm not really sure about your point here

I believe I made it clear. Your entire point regarding the AP of Might Guy's Sekizo and the durability of Madara's horn in order to determine the durability of Kaguya's horn to upgrade Sakura's AP falls entirely flat based on my point below which I addressed earlier

Firstly, if you look closely at Madara's horns, you will realize that the broken horn looks like a "Quickhorn" compared to the other. In other words, the horn that broke looks deformed compared to Madara's other horn. Hence, the deformed horn being the weaker one, broke. This is most likely Kishimoto emphasizing the fact that despite Madara being very close to resembling an actual Otsutsuki, he still lacks some "perfect" qualities compared to them. All other Otsutsukis have perfectly shaped and identical-looking horns. Only Madara is different. Also, in Boruto, Boruto is able to break Momoshiki's horn with his hand when he regains his consciousness. But it should be obvious to us that Boruto wouldn't have been able to break Momoshiki's actual horn if he wasn't in a human vessel.

The difference between both cases is that Sakura wasn't Kaguya's only threat at that point. There were 3 other characters around her who are capable of harming her. There's no reason for her to just reduce her durability in that exchange. Unlike Madara with Guy

Kaguya never ever for once considered Sakura a "threat." She was solely focused on Narusasu+Kakashi. She tried escaping these threee guys by flying upwards without even considering the existence of Sakura up there. So yes, this is a blatant offguard feat. The moment Kaguya realized Sakura was up there, it was already too late for her to even adjust or raise her guard (unless you think Sakura falling from Kakashi's Susanoo is MFTL+++ to blitz Kaguya in one panel before Kaguya could even process what happened right above her head).

She doesn't need to be equal to them. She just need to be strong enough to not hold them back. Of course she couldn't contribute to the fight. All the main players were flying around. Which she can't do even if she's strong enough. When she eventually gets close to Kaguya, she dealt damage to her.

She's not strong enough to battle opponents Naruto and Sasuke battle. She was scared shitless when she looked at juubidara and proceeded to contribute absolutely nothing when she got "Mental Amped/Determination Amp" upon releasing her seal. She almost passed out just by sensing Kaguya's presence. Even Kakashi explicitly claimed Sakura perform anywhere close to those two against Kaguya. And mind you, the Sakura that trembled against Juubidara and Kaguya is supposed to be in a far better condition but physically and stamina-wise than in the last battle with her team against Kaguya. Especially against Juubidara since she just released her seal then, and was also "determined amp" like you put it.

No
Good thing "determination" is not all I'm using here

That's the main point you're basing this entire upgrade on though. You show some offguard feats alomg with an innacurate durability flaw of Madara's horn, then wrap everything up with the exagerrated determination stuff. I could get kid Konohamaru to Pain Arc SM Naruto's level using the same logic you used.

What assumptions exactly?
Given the fact that they were in dire straits and have a limited timeframe for execution, it makes no sense for him not to be completely sure on what they were attempting.
To your main point
He doesn't actually see the seal unleashed version of Sakura. He only knows that it'll be more than what she's currently exuding. Unlike Naruto where he could actually see what he's got.
Probably why he didn't ask Sakura from the onset.
And it's not as if it's an isolated event. Given that Sakura can refill Naruto's chakra to a point on the moon

Exactly, Obito wasn't sure on what he was saying which is why he was wrong on his assessment of Sakura's and most likely Naruto's chakra reserves.
If he didnt see the unleashed seal of Sakura, how exactly can he be certain that she has more chakra than clone Naruto? He simply made an assumption.
As for that last part, Sakura literally passed out after 3 WHOLE DAYS of refilling Naruto's chakra. It's not like she had any sweet time and comfortability refilling those reserves. She struggled till she lost consciousness just to refill them. Even if we half the chakra Naruto needed to become conscious since that was not longer a clone, it would stilltake her a lot of time to refill those reserves. She simply doesn't have anywhere close to half of Nard's reserves.

This was effective because they didn't know what hit them. Literally
And what other stuffs in his arsenal would be just as effective as that?

Nobody except Nard and Rinnegan Sasuke knows what hit them when Madara uses limbo.
Madara would have physically stomped the tailed beasts if he wanted to. Limbos are just as physically strong as the user. Did you forget that?

He used limbo to CATCH EMS Sasuke.
And what other stuffs in his arsenal would be just as effective as that?

Ok? He could have used limbo to KILL Sasuke if he wanted to lol.
Anything Madara had could have killed that version of Sasuke easily.

As much as he was trying to enjoy the fight, he was also keen on defending himself from attacks as shown.
And him flexing is a non point given that he jetted out of there in like the next panel
Besides, why would he be flexing on the only people who were capable of killing him in the first place.

He was keen on defending himself, but he didn't fight back. My point was that Madara chose to not use limbo agains Guy because that would have ruined the fun out of his battle. Even guy activated Night Guy, Madara still refused to use Limbo to defend or support himself. Rather, he used TSO.
Also, Madara didn't jet away. He simply was done flecing on the team. Hell, he literally considered it a "sideshow"
None of them at that point were anywhere close to Perfect Juubidara's level. That's why he was casually flexing on them.

That's Un-Madaralike

Do you mean the opposite? Night Guy could have killed 1 eyed Juubidara, but guess what? He laughed at that bastard.

Noted
What about the first phase?

I don't really see the point of the first phase considering that version of Sakura is just unquantifiable.

 

[Golden_Void]

..

Your links don't work for me

 

[Tdjwo]

Your links don't work for me

Mhhhhmm. They work perfectly fine over here.

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

I. Agree.

 

[Testarossa002]

He surpassed Itachi, but that doesn't mean he's physically stronger than his Susano'o...
We saw, very explicitly during the Kabuto fight, that he was still relative to Edo Itachi. And Edo Itachi's Susano'o is where the 15 Gigatons value comes from in the first place.
As for the Rasenshuriken feats, that was achieved via Amaterasu, which far upscales the Susano'o anyway, and again, has absolutely no bearing on his physical abilities.

Wouldn't want to drag this longer since this is likely your last post on the topic so I'll mention something else.
Don't you find it intriguing that the databook scan comparing the trio was taken right after Sasuke and Naruto unleashed their ninjutsu attacks?

The point was that the protrusions would logically be less durable. I still don't see a connection between Kaguya's horn and Madara's cap.

The point of my point was that it doesn't matter if the pointed ends of the horns were what broke off.
Madara's horn was still hit by sekizo. Not just the base part of it.
Madara's left horn breaking off is a non point at this point because it doesn't scale to the sekizo and it's noticeably less developed compared to the right horn.

Ermmmm, nah, it definitely came up a few times.

It's Naruto. It doesn't count
There's a nice quote in these scans actually (Gallery 2)

When people are protecting someone truly precious to them, they truly can become as strong as they must be

This lends credence to Arc's point that mental amps do not follow any defined logic.
They grow in strength to match whatever threat is in front of them or what they're protecting.
In other words, there isn't a thing as too high for mental amps

Madara choosing not to eat an attack isn't really grounds for the attack to scale to him, like at all.

Not to him. At least not directly.
I mentioned this in the OP

2. Madara didn't think he needed limbo to defend against Sekizo. (Yes, he was trying to defend himself. Just didn't use limbo which is nigh invulnerable to physical hits)
Yet, when Sakura came charging at him, he opted to intercept her attack with limbo.

Also Limbo isn't invulnerable to damage. It's just impossible to physically interact with unless Madara chooses for it to interact with something, or you have Six Paths chakra.

I disagree with this but since it's currently accepted on the profile, it'll need it's own CRT. Which I don't plan on doing

Are you trying to tell me that it doesn’t makes sense that the Sakura that should’ve been able to just one-shot Spiral Zetsu's Mokuton just sat there until she and the rest of the Alliance just wasted their reserves? I believe you're being unreasonable here, mate /s

Man....
The entire point of this section of the OP

"But you said earlier that SoHS Sakura is on par with Tsunade. Doesn't that result in a circular scaling? Besides, why was Sakura not at the forefront of the Juubito fight if she's orders of magnitude stronger than the main fighters then?"

is to separate her feat against kaguya from whatever else happened during the war. Due to the mental amp whatnot.
It doesn't really matter even if Ramen guy defeated her prior to that point

VHD crt when?

Take your mid out of here guy

Her peak (Byakugo Enhanced) doesn't have any concrete placement. Sure, she might not cap at the forms of Naruto and Sasuke shown in the databook, but she also doesn't have any concrete feat that puts her to any other stronger form of Nard and Sasuke. She only has plethora of anti-feats which some of it has been addressed by US69 and I. At best, she has an unquantifiable superiority over her SoHS version.

Which is what I said

I believe I made it clear. Your entire point regarding the AP of Might Guy's Sekizo and the durability of Madara's horn in order to determine the durability of Kaguya's horn to upgrade Sakura's AP falls entirely flat based on my point below which I addressed earlier

Which is why I'm not scaling her to the broken horn

Kaguya never ever for once considered Sakura a "threat." She was solely focused on Narusasu+Kakashi. She tried escaping these threee guys by flying upwards without even considering the existence of Sakura up there. So yes, this is a blatant offguard feat. The moment Kaguya realized Sakura was up there, it was already too late for her to even adjust or raise her guard (unless you think Sakura falling from Kakashi's Susanoo is MFTL+++ to blitz Kaguya in one panel before Kaguya could even process what happened right above her head).

It's like you didn't read my original response.
Yes. she wasn't aware of Sakura
No. she had no reason to lower her durability as she was still in combat and withing striking range of her main threats

Exactly, Obito wasn't sure on what he was saying which is why he was wrong on his assessment of Sakura's and most likely Naruto's chakra reserves.
If he didnt see the unleashed seal of Sakura, how exactly can he be certain that she has more chakra than clone Naruto? He simply made an assumption.

I never said he claimed Sakura had more chakra than Naruto. He didn't even imply anything of the sort

As for that last part, Sakura literally passed out after 3 WHOLE DAYS of refilling Naruto's chakra. It's not like she had any sweet time and comfortability refilling those reserves. She struggled till she lost consciousness just to refill them. Even if we half the chakra Naruto needed to become conscious since that was not longer a clone, it would stilltake her a lot of time to refill those reserves. She simply doesn't have anywhere close to half of Nard's reserves.

Naruto had a whole half of Kurama added to him after the war. Plus his own naturally increasing reserves. Even if sakura's chakra reserves grew at the same pace as that of Naruto normally, she'll still fall short due to the addition of light kurama. Her taking 3 days is not a defeater when you take this into consideration

Madara would have physically stomped the tailed beasts if he wanted to. Limbos are just as physically strong as the user. Did you forget that?

That's not the point
I'm saying limbo was the most effective thing in his arsenal at that point. Not necessrily the strongest

He was keen on defending himself, but he didn't fight back. My point was that Madara chose to not use limbo agains Guy because that would have ruined the fun out of his battle. Even guy activated Night Guy, Madara still refused to use Limbo to defend or support himself. Rather, he used TSO.
Also, Madara didn't jet away. He simply was done flecing on the team. Hell, he literally considered it a "sideshow"
None of them at that point were anywhere close to Perfect Juubidara's level. That's why he was casually flexing on them.

I never said he wanted to fight back....
You know what? Nevermind on that

I don't really see the point of the first phase considering that version of Sakura is just unquantifiable.

It's a more that 3x upgrade though

---

Anyways
Thank you for taking the time to respond @UchihaSlayer96 and @Tdjwo
You don't need to respond if you feel you've already addressed that point.
Unless I mentioned something new.
I don't want this to be too bulky for the mods I would invite to look at this

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I don't really plan to argue on this thread. I have other things that demand my time, and I can't really put them off. I'm gonna drop my thoughts and dip. Just wanted to make that clear.

I know I said I wouldn't comment again, and this will likely be my last comment fr fr. I just wanted to clear some stuff up.

Okay, okay, this will be my final, final, final post....
I promise.

Wouldn't want to drag this longer since this is likely your last post on the topic so I'll mention something else.
Don't you find it intriguing that the databook scan comparing the trio was taken right after Sasuke and Naruto unleashed their ninjutsu attacks?

Not, uh, not quite, no lol. It's simply because that was the moment they stood shoulder to shoulder together as "equals". It makes sense for the Databook to use that particular image. I don't really think it's meant to indicate that Sakura can punch harder than Naruto's Rasenshuriken or Sasuke's Susano'o.

Now, to be clear, I do have her scaling to around the level of their stronger moves, just not in base SoHS.

The point of my point was that it doesn't matter if the pointed ends of the horns were what broke off.
Madara's horn was still hit by sekizo. Not just the base part of it.
Madara's left horn breaking off is a non point at this point because it doesn't scale to the sekizo and it's noticeably less developed compared to the right horn.

I mean, I agree that the right horn is probably more durable than the left. I just think the rest of the argument is a bit of a stretch imo.
My thing with this is:

• It's possible that Madara's horn took damage due to being off-guarded in that moment. In which case, we can assume that the durability of these horns may be affected based on whether the head they're attached to is on-guard or not. That would affect the Kaguya situation, since she was also caught off-guard by Sakura. I'd rather not debate the semantics of these people with Six Paths Senjutsu and Amped Dojutsu being caught off-guard, since it'll just lead us to the conclusion that it's dumb, but I digress. It is what it is.
• Another thing, which I've already alluded to, is that I think a cap resting horizontally on someone's will logically be harder to break off than, say, a vertical horn that's got no support. That just makes sense to me.

But honestly, I feel like we're getting to the point where we're arguing semantics, which I generally don't like. I think we've both said our piece on this particular point, so I think I'll just leave it up to the others to decide on it. I'm fine with any decision that's reached here.

It's Naruto. It doesn't count
There's a nice quote in these scans actually (Gallery 2)
This lends credence to Arc's point that mental amps do not follow any defined logic.
They grow in strength to match whatever threat is in front of them or what they're protecting.
In other words, there isn't a thing as too high for mental amps

See, that's just it. I'm not a huge fan of the kind of precedent we might be setting here. I don't feel comfortable with the implications of it all.

If we accept this logic with no scrutiny, then when can we ever draw the line? If nothing can ever be considered too high or inconsistent, then do we just completely do away with any sense of coherence or consistency? Like, should we just give Minato 5-C durability because he might have been mentally amped in that moment? I've already outlined numerous issues with Sakura being on this level, both narratively and feats-wise. If that's not enough, then literally nothing ever will be for any other case. People will just use this precedent to do away with outliers completely.
Like, idk, this might just be a me issue, but I dread the possibilities this opens up ngl.

Not to him. At least not directly.
I mentioned this in the OP

So, you're saying something alone the lines of "Madara used Limbo as a shield against Sakura, but not Guy, so he deemed Sakura a bigger threat than Guy". I got that right?
That makes no sense, though. Madara had already established that he has no interest in getting directly hit by Guy again. So, using Limbo, which has the same physical stats as Madara himself, as a meat shield makes absolutely no sense in this situation. All he'd be achieving is getting his Limbo hurt for no real reason or benefit. Using the TSO as a shield is far more prudent, as it can erase/deconstruct Guy on contact, so it'd actually function well as far as protecting him goes.

This just feels like a reach to equate two cases that have nothing to do with each other, IMO.

I disagree with this but since it's currently accepted on the profile, it'll need it's own CRT. Which I don't plan on doing

Cool, that's fair.

 

[Nightshade]

Imma touch you

Bro what?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Bro what?

Did he stutter?

 

[karo_senpaii]

Okay, okay, this will be my final, final, final post....
I promise.

Not, uh, not quite, no lol. It's simply because that was the moment they stood shoulder to shoulder together as "equals". It makes sense for the Databook to use that particular image. I don't really think it's meant to indicate that Sakura can punch harder than Naruto's Rasenshuriken or Sasuke's Susano'o.

Now, to be clear, I do have her scaling to around the level of their stronger moves, just not in base SoHS.

I mean, I agree that the right horn is probably more durable than the left. I just think the rest of the argument is a bit of a stretch imo.
My thing with this is:

• It's possible that Madara's horn took damage due to being off-guarded in that moment. In which case, we can assume that the durability of these horns may be affected based on whether the head they're attached to is on-guard or not. That would affect the Kaguya situation, since she was also caught off-guard by Sakura. I'd rather not debate the semantics of these people with Six Paths Senjutsu and Amped Dojutsu being caught off-guard, since it'll just lead us to the conclusion that it's dumb, but I digress. It is what it is.
• Another thing, which I've already alluded to, is that I think a cap resting horizontally on someone's will logically be harder to break off than, say, a vertical horn that's got no support. That just makes sense to me.

But honestly, I feel like we're getting to the point where we're arguing semantics, which I generally don't like. I think we've both said our piece on this particular point, so I think I'll just leave it up to the others to decide on it. I'm fine with any decision that's reached here.

See, that's just it. I'm not a huge fan of the kind of precedent we might be setting here. I don't feel comfortable with the implications of it all.

If we accept this logic with no scrutiny, then when can we ever draw the line? If nothing can ever be considered too high or inconsistent, then do we just completely do away with any sense of coherence or consistency? Like, should we just give Minato 5-C durability because he might have been mentally amped in that moment? I've already outlined numerous issues with Sakura being on this level, both narratively and feats-wise. If that's not enough, then literally nothing ever will be for any other case. People will just use this precedent to do away with outliers completely.
Like, idk, this might just be a me issue, but I dread the possibilities this opens up ngl.

So, you're saying something alone the lines of "Madara used Limbo as a shield against Sakura, but not Guy, so he deemed Sakura a bigger threat than Guy". I got that right?
That makes no sense, though. Madara had already established that he has no interest in getting directly hit by Guy again. So, using Limbo, which has the same physical stats as Madara himself, as a meat shield makes absolutely no sense in this situation. All he'd be achieving is getting his Limbo hurt for no real reason or benefit. Using the TSO as a shield is far more prudent, as it can erase/deconstruct Guy on contact, so it'd actually function well as far as protecting him goes.

This just feels like a reach to equate two cases that have nothing to do with each other, IMO.

Cool, that's fair.

Can normal attacks harm limbo?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Can normal attacks harm limbo?

If Madara allows physical interaction, then yes. Or else Sakura's punch would've just went through the thing.

 

[karo_senpaii]

If Madara allows physical interaction, then yes. Or else Sakura's punch would've just went through the thing.

Ah I see

 

[Ragazz]

Can normal attacks harm limbo?

only sage6 type of attacks/jutsus can harm it.