Saitama vs Ogre (1-7-0) GRACE

[DavidTPPM]

The strongest human takes on the strongest dragon.

Battle Info:

• Post balding Saitama is used
• Both are 4-A
• Speed is equalized
• Saitama starts bloodlusted
• SBA

AP:

• Saitamas AP: 50.4 ExaFoe
• Ogres AP: 66.4 Exafoe
• The difference is 1.11x in Ogres favor

LS:

• Saitamas LS: 1.5169548e+26 kg
• Ogres LS: 6.076e32 kg

Who wins?

Saitama: Phoenks
Ogre: Yeolban, DavidTPPM, Epiccheev, Mndks, Spectra_Schiffer, Averagepunn, Halkum145
Inconclusive:

 

[Bernkastelll]

The strongest human takes on the strongest dragon.

Battle Info:

• Post balding Saitama is used
• Both are 4-A
• Speed is equalized
• SBA

AP:

• Saitamas AP: 50.4 ExaFoe
• Ogres AP: 66.4 Exafoe
• The difference is 1.11x in Ogres favor

Who wins?

Saitama:
Ogre:
Inconclusive:

So... it seems that Ogre has Incorporeality and Invisibility (Exists as a mind[6]).

Santana can interact with mind/spiritual stuff since he could interact with Phoenix Man's dimension, but i'm not rlly sure about how it will works here tho.

the AP gap is really small and Sanfona can quickly surpass it with his Reactive Evolution, so, according to what I can see, the main problem is the Incorporeality stuff cuz i don't know if it will work or not.

 

[DavidTPPM]

So... it seems that Ogre hasIncorporeality and Invisibility (Exists as a mind[6]).

Incorporeality and NPI are weird but I assumed Saitama can see and interact with her based on his Phoenixman stuff. (I specifically picked him over Garou because Garou doesn't have NPI)

the AP gap is really small and Sanfona can quickly surpass it with his Reactive Evolution, so, according to what I can see, the main problem is the Incorporeality stuff cuz i don't know if it will work or not.

Ogres RE should scale from Ryong who could jump by perception blitz tiers instantly, and could keep up with Mori who was actively growing during their fight, even tho Mori can jump anywhere from 8 to 250,000x stronger almost instantly so they should probably be capable of keeping up with each others RE.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Ogres RE should scale from Ryong who could jump by perception blitz tiers instantly, and could keep up with Mori who was actively growing during their fight, even tho Mori can jump anywhere from 8 to 250,000x stronger almost instantly so they should probably be capable of keeping up with each others RE.

Interesting, I should get into TGOH since i didnt got past the first arc

 

[MrTayman616]

So... it seems that Ogre hasIncorporeality and Invisibility (Exists as a mind[6]).

Santana can interact with mind/spiritual stuff since he could interact with Phoenix Man's dimension, but i'm not rlly sure about how it will works here tho.

the AP gap is really small and Sanfona can quickly surpass it with his Reactive Evolution, so, according to what I can see, the main problem is the Incorporeality stuff cuz i don't know if it will work or not.

saitama should be capable of interacting with her inside the mind(spiritual realm and etc). otherwise i cant see a reason why phoenix man is scared of him there and closes the realm later. also NPI and stuff.

Ogres RE should scale from Ryong who could jump by perception blitz tiers instantly, and could keep up with Mori who was actively growing during their fight, even tho Mori can jump anywhere from 8 to 250,000x stronger almost instantly so they should probably be capable of keeping up with each others RE

i dont know anything about the verse but so pls tell me if im wrong. also 250,000x part seems to comes an ability and doesnt seem to be something mori can use constantly to multiply foverer?

8x seems legit for their accelerated growth. if so saitama should win

 

[DavidTPPM]

saitama should be capable of interacting with her inside the mind(spiritual realm and etc). otherwise i cant see a reason why phoenix man is scared of him there and closes the realm later. also NPI and stuff.

Yeah that's what I was thinking as well.

i dont know anything about the verse but so pls tell me if im wrong. also 250,000x part seems to comes an ability and doesnt seem to be something mori can use constantly to multiply foverer?

The 250,000x value I'm referring to is not Moris multiplier but Moris feat of overcoming the multiplier.
Basically Mori with a 250,000x multiplier lost said multiplier, depowered back to base, and then instantly outgrew his multiplied level in a single kick.

There is also another feat where Mujin (who's RE is basically equal to Moris) is relative to Satan, Satan uses a 250,000x multiplier, and Mujins RE let's him instantly catch up and outgrow him in a single attack.

8x seems legit for their accelerated growth. if so saitama should win

Would simply punching harder be enough? Ogre has an enormous skill and LS advantage.

(I should also note that RE here is purely reactive so it's not like Ogre is going to grow gazillion times stronger each time she punches Saitama but rather in order to catch up)

 

[MrTayman616]

Yeah that's what I was thinking as well.

The 250,000x value I'm referring to is not Moris multiplier but Moris feat of overcoming the multiplier.
Basically Mori with a 250,000x multiplier lost said multiplier, depowered back to base, and then instantly outgrew his multiplied level in a single kick.

There is also another feat where Mujin (who's RE is basically equal to Moris) is relative to Satan, Satan uses a 250,000x multiplier, and Mujins RE let's him instantly catch up and outgrow him in a single attack.

Would simply punching harder be enough? Ogre has an enormous skill and LS advantage.

(I should also note that RE here is purely reactive so it's not like Ogre is going to grow gazillion times stronger each time she punches Saitama but rather in order to catch up)

even if they have relative speed. saitama should be able to copy his hand to hand fighting skills and surpass them. but lifting strength advantage is definitely true. saitama's 59x accepted growth cant reach it.

considering the wiki doesnt seem to give her 250,000x rated AD but 8x. saitama should outgrow her, both stats and skill wise (except LS). even if there is a difference between LS like that. the AP difference after should let saitama one shot.

 

[DavidTPPM]

even if they have relative speed. saitama should be able to copy his hand to hand fighting skills and surpass them. but lifting strength advantage is definitely true. saitama's 59x accepted growth cant reach it.

See, that's the interesting thing about the match up. Ogre doesn't fight with martial arts but with Bo staffs. She EXCLUSIVELY fights using her various staffs, meaning power mimicry doesn't exactly work here.

considering the wiki doesnt seem to give her 250,000x rated AD but 8x. saitama should outgrow her, both stats and skill wise (except LS).

Her profile doesn't give her a value but links her RE to Mori.

Accelerated Development (Could keep up with Mori Dan despite him constantly growing throughout the fight

Who directly fought and scales to Mujin, who's 250,000x RE is mentioned in his profile.

Multi-Solar System level (Stronger than Mori Jin was back when he was the Supreme God), up to Multi-Galaxy level with Reactive Evolution (Outgrew Satan after he multiplied his power by 250,000x)

Also even if you're not convinced that she can keep up with his RE, wouldn't this still give her plenty time before Saitamas starts jumping by ridiculous amounts?

even if there is a difference between LS like that. the AP difference after should let saitama one shot.

Couldn't Ogre still like, crush Saitama using her LS even if he outgrew her AP? Crushing people is one of her in character opening moves.

 

[MrTayman616]

See, that's the interesting thing about the match up. Ogre doesn't fight with martial arts but with Bo staffs. She EXCLUSIVELY fights using her various staffs, meaning power mimicry doesn't exactly work here.

Her profile doesn't give her a value but links her RE to Mori.

Who directly fought and scales to Mujin, who's 250,000x RE is mentioned in his profile.

Also even if you're not convinced that she can keep up with his RE, wouldn't this still give her plenty time before Saitamas starts jumping by ridiculous amounts?

Couldn't Ogre still like, crush Saitama using her LS even if he outgrew her AP? Crushing people is one of her in character opening moves.

like i said. didnt read it. if its good, i might start though.

Anyway, is Mori's growth comparable to Mujan Park's at that time in the series? if its not, there can be detabes, if it is, what wincons saitama has? considering he doesnt have a weapon, saitama wont gain much hand to hand skill(he saw bang's technique and stuff before. but i dont know if the wiki accepts post-balding saitama as being capable of using it, though he should be considering he copied moves monster garou used "not cosmic fear") shouldnt matter if she can grow that much.

saitama gets outscaled and loses if its comparable at that time in the series. at the very least i dont see a wincon? she doesnt seem to have a type of weakness saitama can use either.

 

[DavidTPPM]

like i said. didnt read it. if its good, i might start though.

I would 100% recommend, especially if you like martial art fights.

Anyway, is Mori's growth comparable to Mujan Park's at that time in the series?

It should be. Although you could argue his RE gets better the stronger he gets (since he doesn't just instantly jump above everyone he ever fights), I don't exactly see why that would be the case here as Mori goes to fight Mujin right after his fight with Ogre

if its not, there can be detabes, if it is, what wincons saitama has?

Well as I said, the growth is only reactive so Saitama would be capable of fighting on par with Ogre and when his exponential growth reaches a certain level Ogre won't be able to catch up regardless of whether we use the 8x or 250,000x RE value.

considering he doesnt have a weapon, saitama wont gain much hand to hand skill(he saw bang's technique and stuff before. but i dont know if the wiki accepts post-balding saitama as being capable of using it, though he should be considering he copied moves monster garou used "not cosmic fear") shouldnt matter if she can grow that much.

I can make Saitama bloodlusted so his growth is faster and his BIQ/skill is higher from the start, or switch to parallel timeline Saitama (or both) if that makes it more fair.

 

[Farfetchedx]

• Saitamas AP: 50.4 ExaFoe

Saitama is 488.18 ExaFoe, scaling from Blast.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Saitama is 488.18 ExaFoe, scaling from Blast.

Huh? Blasts scaling comes from tanking the SP² which gets him to 7.5670264e+61J. That's 756 PettaFoe. Where did 6 get 488.18 ExaFoe?

 

[Farfetchedx]

Huh? Blasts scaling comes from tanking the SP² which gets him to 7.5670264e+61J. That's 756 PettaFoe. Where did 6 get 488.18 ExaFoe?

• Blast's durability to withstand Serious Punch² attacks - 756.70264 PetaFoe, possibly 488.18486 ExaFoe - (Multi-Solar System level)

 

[Bernkastelll]

i'm confused

 

[DavidTPPM]

• Blast's durability to withstand Serious Punch² attacks - 756.70264 PetaFoe, possibly 488.18486 ExaFoe - (Multi-Solar System level)

If this is true I’m voting saitama

Oh that. That doesn't work here. The possibly 488 ExaFoe value comes from the 3-C version of the SP² calc. In other words, if we use that to scale Saitama, he would be 3-C while this thread uses his 4-A value.

 

[DavidTPPM]

i'm confused

Ah, basically Blast tanked like 1% of the serious punch². That's what's used to scale him. SP² has 2 official values. A solid 4-A rating (50.4 ExaFoe) and a "likely" 3-C rating (36.3 ZettaFoe). Therefore Blast tanking it also has 2 versions. Using the higher end for Blast therefore means you are using the 3-C version of the SP² calc which, therefore means Saitama is 3-C.

So Saitama is not 488.18 ExaFoe under any circumstances in this wiki.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I'll list out Ogres main advantages and win cons since she's not exactly the most known character ever.

Ogre is an extremely skilled with fighting style so complex even combat geniuses with billions of years of experience consider it so complicated it's unfair.
Her opening moves are to try to catch her opponent off guard with her staff size manipulation (aiming to either cut out their eyes or stab their organs), or to crush them with her LS. She has such a massive LS advantage this should be a win con that Saitama can't just outgrow.
If all else fails, she can evolve in both speed and strength and use paralysis inducement with Moonshadow.

 

[Yeolban]

I believe Ogre takes this, so I'm voting for her

 

[Phoenks]

Saitama requires emotion to grow. Maybe use a bloodlusted Saitama or Parallel Timeline.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Saitama requires emotion to grow. Maybe use a bloodlusted Saitama or Parallel Timeline.

Okay I switched Saitama to bloodlusted

 

[Phoenks]

Okay, Saitama should probably win now via Reactive Evolution and copying her skills/abilities.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Okay, Saitama should probably win now via Reactive Evolution and copying her skills/abilities.

How is he going to copy her skills and abilities if they're solely reliant on her staffs?

Can Saitama do anything to avoid getting crushed to death?

 

[DavidTPPM]

I should also note that Mori actually did copy Ogres skills and abilities but still couldn't touch Ogre for most of the fight and ended up losing.

 

[Phoenks]

If the durability of her staffs are the same as her, then Saitama could break them.

 

[DavidTPPM]

If the durability of her staffs are the same as her, then Saitama could break them.

After he outgrows her enough maybe, assuming he gets a direct hit, but couldn't she just crush him to death long before he gets that big of an AP advantage?

She has her own ridiculous RE so she should be able to keep up for a decent while before Saitamas growth becomes too quick.

 

[Yeolban]

but couldn't she just crush him to death long before he gets that big of an AP advantage?

Was what I was thinking. Yeah he might exponentially grow during the fight, but it's useless if she just drops a Yeoui on him...

 

[DavidTPPM]

Was what I was thinking. Yeah he might exponentially grow during the fight, but it's useless if she just drops a Yeoui on him...

Yeah exactly. And given that the difference in LS is over 4 million times meaning he's not closing that fast enough at all.
Meaning she probably just outskills and crushes him.

 

[Phoenks]

After he outgrows her enough maybe, assuming he gets a direct hit, but couldn't she just crush him to death long before he gets that big of an AP advantage?

Are you saying she will crush him with the LS? Restrain, maybe, but crush, no. He can still use his attack potency to generate enough impact force to move the objects out of the way and potentially even break them.

Meaning she probably just outskills and crushes him.

I don't think she can outskill him. Bloodlusted Saitama is quite skilled.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Are you saying she will crush him with the LS? Restrain, maybe, but crush, no. He can still use his attack potency to generate enough impact force to move the objects out of the way and potentially even break them.

Why not? Why wouldn't Ogre instantly applying weight 4 million times higher than Saitamas LS crush him?

I don't think she can outskill him. Bloodlusted Saitama is quite skilled.

Ogres skill was considered so insanely complicated that even Mori considered it "unfair" and "almost like cheating". Even Moris insane info analysis couldn't see a weakness, and even him copying her wasn't enough to land solid blows without suffering more damage.
And that's without her spamming things like speed amps, Paralysis, danmaku, etc.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I'll just compose the main arguments for both here.

Spoiler: Ogre

Ogre not only starts with an AP advantage but has her own RE which would allow her to keep up with Saitama for some time. This allows her to abuse her skill to kill him before he can start outgrowing her.

Ogre would also try to crush Saitama very soon which would result in a 1 shot due to her massive LS advantage.

Besides that she still has paralysis inducement which Saitama doesn't resist, meaning she could just paralyze Saitama as a win con.


Defensively, Ogres fighting style revolves around redirecting her opponents attacks meaning she should be capable of avoiding Saitamas attacks even in case he outgrows her AP.

To add to this, Ogre also has regen that allows her to almost instantly regenerate after being cut in half, making her very hard to kill.

Spoiler: Saitama

Saitamas main advantage is his exponential growth. His power will keep jumping by higher and higher amounts until he gets to a point where he can just one tap Ogre.

His attacks also have an extremely wide range, meaning once he gets to a point where he can one shot her, no amount of redirecting or dodging will save her.

Defensively, Saitama resists most of Ogres hax like sleep inducement, electricity manip, and ice manip. Thanks to this, once he outgrows her AP Ogre will be left with very limit possible win cons.

All things considered, Ogre has more win cons which she can pull off from the beginning while Saitama is limited to a single win con that takes a long time to prepare. So I'm voting Ogre until/unless some new argument for Saitama appear.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Bump

 

[Phoenks]

Ogres skill was considered so insanely complicated that even Mori considered it "unfair" and "almost like cheating". Even Moris insane info analysis couldn't see a weakness, and even him copying her wasn't enough to land solid blows without suffering more damage.

I mean Garou considered Saitama to be unfair too. Also, similarly, not even Garou copying Saitama could keep pace with him and Saitama could even see through his portal usages and copy him.

Saitama also has better feats of copying than Mori Jin. Considering he could copy time travel and has the potential to copy god abilities, which are 4th dimensional.

Besides that she still has paralysis inducement which Saitama doesn't resist, meaning she could just paralyze Saitama as a win con.

How does it work.

Defensively, Ogres fighting style revolves around redirecting her opponents attacks meaning she should be capable of avoiding Saitamas attacks even in case he outgrows her AP.

Can she redirect intergalactic shock waves?

Ogre would also try to crush Saitama very soon which would result in a 1 shot due to her massive LS advantage.

Unless she has some non-physical way of doing this Saitama can still just punch away her weapons to avoid getting crushed. Impacts carry force capable of moving stuff away from you.

 

[Yeolban]

How does it work.

She has a Yeoui that can manipulate shadows, making the targets unable to move. It's on her profile.

I mean Garou considered Saitama to be unfair too.

The difference is that the skill in Martial Arts between the 2 verses is pretty massive. Of course, you can refute me, as I don't really know the OPM verse well, maybe I'm wrong... This is just going off match-ups I've seen in the past.

Saitama also has better feats of copying than Mori Jin.

That wasn't really the argument, Mori had already copied Ogre. The argument was that copying her wasn't enough to land blows on her.

Can she redirect intergalactic shock waves?

That's... oddly specific... Maybe David can give you more imput on this idfk

 

[Phoenks]

The difference is that the skill in Martial Arts between the 2 verses is pretty massive. Of course, you can refute me, as I don't really know the OPM verse well, maybe I'm wrong... This is just going off match-ups I've seen in the past.

Prove it.

That wasn't really the argument, Mori had already copied Ogre. The argument was that copying her wasn't enough to land blows on her.

Okay? Then that's a limit for Jin's copying ability. Otherwise, it's simply illogical and unquantifiable because if I perfectly copy a person I should be just as competent as them. And again Saitama's copy is better since he can copy more complicated things.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I mean Garou considered Saitama to be unfair too.

Saitama was "unfairly strong". Moris statements were specifically referring to the complexity of Ogres fighting style. Even a much less experienced Mori could instantly analyze and counter complex abilities like sound based ignition point manipulation with a single glance and counter them, but Ogres fighting style was so complicated it felt like cheating to him.

Also, similarly, not even Garou copying Saitama could keep pace with him and Saitama could even see through his portal usages and copy him.

That was mainly due to Saitama outgrowing his power wasn't it?

Saitama also has better feats of copying than Mori Jin. Considering he could copy time travel and has the potential to copy god abilities, which are 4th dimensional.

Uhm, I wouldn't really say so. Saitama copied Garou moving his subatomic particles which resulted in time travel not the act of time travel itself. I don't really see why would copying the technique be extraordinarily difficult as long as you're physically capable of moving your anti particles and whatnot.

How does it work.

Like Yeolban said, Ogre has a Yeoui that can manipulate your shadow to paralyze her targets. The Yeoui itself is a large scale danmaku.

Can she redirect intergalactic shock waves?

Ogre would redirect Saitamas fists so that the shockwave itself doesn't actually go in her direction.

Unless she has some non-physical way of doing this Saitama can still just punch away her weapons to avoid getting crushed. Impacts carry force capable of moving stuff away from you.

Uhm no? He would first need to outgrow her enough which will take time given Saitamas RE starts slow and that Ogre has her own RE.
And even if he were to destroy her Yeoui she can just pop a bone out of her body and make multiple new ones.

She can also just manipulate like 20 of them via TK at once so even if Saitama was strong enough to destroy one, she could just swarm him before he can outgrow their durability.

Prove it.

Uhm, this is Mori Dan who has already reached the very apex of his techniques. A single one of Moris basic kicks is so insanely complicated that people who can copy everything just by seeing it once took 3 million attempts to barely pull it off once.

Okay? Then that's a limit for Jin's copying ability. Otherwise, it's simply illogical and unquantifiable because if I perfectly copy a person I should be just as competent as them.

No? Not exactly how martial arts work. Just because you have the same moveset as your opponent doesn't mean you can utilize it to the same level.

And again Saitama's copy is better since he can copy more complicated things.

That's very debatable.

 

[Yeolban]

Otherwise, it's simply illogical and unquantifiable because if I perfectly copy a person I should be just as competent as them

You're talking about Jin Mori, who has proven since the early chapters that not only can he immediately perfectly copy and counter a technique after only seeing it once, but also improve it several times over simply from concept. This is not a debate. It's in his profile.

Ogre's style is so complex, it's above that. Take it up with the author on it being "illogical" or whatever.

Prove it.

Okay! But you need to wait for the essay.

 

[Phoenks]

You're talking about Jin Mori, who has proven since the early chapters that not only can he immediately perfectly copy and counter a technique after only seeing it once, but also improve it several times over simply from concept. This is not a debate. It's in his profile.

Then it's simply an anti feat for him to not be as good as Ogre after copying her.

If you perfect copy someone you shouldn't still be worse than them. It's either perfect or it isn't.

Uhm, I wouldn't really say so. Saitama copied Garou moving his subatomic particles which resulted in time travel not the act of time travel itself. I don't really see why would copying the technique be extraordinarily difficult as long as you're physically capable of moving your anti particles and whatnot.

I'm referring to Garou's statement of Saitama being able to copy all of God's powers, which come from a higher dimension which ignores distance size and energy.

Saitama was "unfairly strong".

It wasn't just being unfairly strong he was going toe to toe with Garou in martial arts and purposefully copying his movements.

Uhm, this is Mori Dan who has already reached the very apex of his techniques.

Garou did that too and then exceeded it.

No? Not exactly how martial arts work. Just because you have the same moveset as your opponent doesn't mean you can utilize it to the same level.

Then it isn't perfect copying and you are agreeing with my point here.

 

[Yeolban]

Then it's simply an anti feat for him to not be as good as Ogre after copying her.

If you perfect copy someone you shouldn't still be worse than them. It's either perfect or it isn't.

This is about Ogre's martial arts. Copying her martial arts perfectly wasn't enough for her to take any actual hits because of the complex nature of her martial arts.

Ignored the argument where another character who could perfectly and easily copy techniques had to practice one of Mori's kicks 3 million times over just to barely do it. And was later completely incapable of copying it as Mori even further progressed in Martial Arts.

The kind of Martial Arts that allowed Mori to fight in a half-dead, power deprived state against Park Mujin's 3-B key AND score good hits on him.

 

[Phoenks]

This is about Ogre's martial arts. Copying her martial arts perfectly wasn't enough for her to take any actual hits because of the complex nature of her martial arts.

Then you are not using the term perfectly correctly. A perfect copy would come equipped with the skill of the target as well as the technique, which Garou can do, because his copied techniques immediately surpass the originals.

Ignored the argument where another character who could perfectly and easily copy techniques had to practice one of Mori's kicks 3 million times over just to barely do it. And was later completely incapable of copying it as Mori even further progressed in Martial Art

This still doesn't really mean much in the scope of Saitama's copying though. Again, he can copy shit way beyond that. Like macro-quantum particle movements and 4th dimensional stuff. Yes, I am legitimately saying Saitama has 4-D copying. It is stated by Garou that he can copy God's powers and God's powers are confirmed by blast to come from a higher dimension..

 

[Yeolban]

Then you are not using the term perfectly correctly. A perfect copy would come equipped with the skill of the target as well as the technique, which Garou can do, because his copied techniques immediately surpass the originals.



This still doesn't really mean much in the scope of Saitama's copying though. Again, he can copy shit way beyond that. Like macro-quantum particle movements and 4th dimensional stuff. Yes, I am legitimately saying Saitama has 4-D copying. It is stated by Garou that he can copy God's powers and God's powers are confirmed by blast to come from a higher dimension..

Ain't that shit hax and not MA feats...