Saint Seiya revision

[Leonida85]

But the only difference between the bronzes and the golds is the 7' sense, and not the atomic destruction

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

So it's just this specific feat and the calculation of this.

Your problem is the energy obtained in the calculation of this specific feat and not the description of the powers of the series.

I wouldn't say that specific calculation - any calc that involves total atomic destruction when it isn't supported by evidence shouldn't be used.

But generally that's the idea, yes. I'm not rejecting what's specifically stated in the scans but how it's used to extrapolate feats in the series.

 

[SupremeGilgamesh]

Alright what do we need

Just tell us some thing,some scan we need to prove it once and for all that atomization exists in Saint Seiya

 

[Rocker1189]

@SupremeGilgamesh

....you are really still not getting it?

Atomization does exist that is a fact it is stated over and over.

Atomization of the entirety of the crater is what is required for the calc to be correct.

 

[SupremeGilgamesh]

And that the thing

Atomization exists

Atomization comes from Cosmo

Cosmo was used in that crater

Besides how do they want that in something that has NO MOTION and ONLY STATEMENTS we have to trust or bust it

 

[Xulrev]

I'm still rather enjoying the fact that the argument evolved into "We can't trust the author to draw accurate atomic vaporization, he doesn't know physics, but also we should trust the author to know what he's talking about when he implies total atomic vaporization and just ignore what he draws".

The doublethink required is immense. And still not a single person has even bothered to engage, with evidence, the issue of debris consistently existing as collateral to Saints' attacks. It's all superfluous rhetoric that tries to avoid having an evidenced point.

At this juncture, Kep's OP truly is just unassailable, or else somebody would have been able to disprove it by now instead of repeating the same tired talking points that miss the point.

 

[Rocker1189]

And that the thing
Atomization exists

Atomization comes from Cosmo

Cosmo was used in that crater

Besides how do they want that in something that has NO MOTION and ONLY STATEMENTS we have to trust or bust it

Then we can either calc what we see or disregard the calc altogether because if we cant trust the visuals then we cant trust the crater's size either.

And nothing you said goes against the point that the entire crater was not atomized.

 

[SupremeGilgamesh]

I'm still rather enjoying the fact that the argument evolved into "We can't trust the author to draw accurate atomic vaporization, he doesn't know physics, but also we should trust the author to know what he's talking about when he implies total atomic vaporization and just ignore what he draws".
The doublethink required is immense. And still not a single person has even bothered to engage, with evidence, the issue of debris consistently existing as collateral to Saints' attacks. It's all superfluous rhetoric that tries to avoid having an evidenced point.

At this juncture, Kep's OP truly is just unassailable, or else somebody would have been able to disprove it by now instead of repeating the same tired talking points that miss the point.

Can...can you repeat the second paragraph in a slower and detailed talk

 

[Xulrev]

Can...can you repeat the second paragraph in a slower and detailed talk

I actually don't know if this is sarcasm, but sure!

Nobody can disprove the OP of the thread and give scans to explain away the fact that the attack, and others like it, have debris occur as a side-effect of their happening. Attack happens ---> there's debris left over. This leaves us to infer that complete atomic vaporization is not happening within the full range of the attack, and that the actual potency/range of their atomization is extremely limited

 

[SupremeGilgamesh]

Can...can you repeat the second paragraph in a slower and detailed talk

I actually don't know if this is sarcasm, but sure!
Nobody can disprove the OP of the thread and give scans to explain away the fact that the attack, and others like it, have debris occur as a side-effect of their happening. Attack happens ---> there's debris left over. This leaves us to infer that complete atomic vaporization is not happening within the full range of the attack, and that the actual potency/range of their atomization is extremely limited

....Can the OP give the scans of the size of debris

 

[Rocker1189]

The OP has already done that, several times in fact.

 

[Schnee_One]

@Supreme

I mean no disrespect here, but please fully read what the thread is talking about and what it details and the scans it's provided, you seem extremely confused on the meaning of the thread

We are detailing that this calc, this calc specifically, wasn't fully atomized because we see debris along with a ton of other signs that show it wasn't atomization for this specific feat

That's literally it, we aren't disproving atomization in SS because we know it exists.

 

[SupremeGilgamesh]

Yeah but i want to analyze all of them in one post

 

[Deleted member 2530]

There is a smaller crater inside the crater which seemed to have been completely atomized. Why not calc the atomization of that part and like add or something with pulverization of the larger crater?

 

[Schnee_One]

That's impossible. You can't take the lazy way out when trying to analyze the arguments of a thread and what it details on both sides.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What's happening here is that we have a wide range of people who are not fans of Saint Seiya suddenly taking interest in the verse and supporting a downgrade based entirely on visuals.

I know this is not what you meant to say, but this sounds like you're implying only fans of a series can comment on a revision thread. That mentality has led to quite a few series being misrepresented, getting far higher/lower than they deserve.

 

[Leonida85]

What's happening here is that we have a wide range of people who are not fans of Saint Seiya suddenly taking interest in the verse and supporting a downgrade based entirely on visuals.

I know this is not what you meant to say, but this sounds like you're implying only fans of a series can comment on a revision thread. That mentality has led to quite a few series being misrepresented, getting far higher/lower than they deserve.

Hoping that the other franchises will also have the same treatment.

Out of curiosity to how many "manga" has atomic destruction been questioned for the presence of "debris" before Saint Seiya?

 

[Rocker1189]

Hoping that the other franchises will also have the same treatment.

Out of curiosity to how many "manga" has atomic destruction been questioned for the presence of "debris" before Saint Seiya?

Literally every verse already goes through this.

 

[Leonida85]

Hoping that the other franchises will also have the same treatment.

Out of curiosity to how many "manga" has atomic destruction been questioned for the presence of "debris" before Saint Seiya?

Literally every verse already goes through this.

This comforts me, and this being the situation, as the Romans said: Nulla Questio

 

[SupremeGilgamesh]

Okay

After some time of thinking,i finally cracked the code

And the answer may be...

Mastery and Learning of Cosmos

 

[SupremeGilgamesh]

Let me explain

Marin is teaching Seiya how to use the Cosmos so she doens't need to atomize the whole thing

The debris we see are the result of Seiya unmastered Cosmos atomizing,let's say,15% of the rock compared to the rest

The crater we see is Seiya still unmastered but now learned use of Cosmos If we saw a Mastered Cosmo user fight a normal being or thing,they would be disintegrated

Isn't that right Matt?

 

[SinsofMan]

After reading this thread, I have come to the conclusion we are seriously splitting hairs on a massive tangent.

I technically agree with Kep with his 8-B/8-A assumption but can I just go out on a limb and say Cosmo is being massively scruntized.

Cosmo literally has references of atomic assembly and destruction as it is a CRUCIAL aspect to its power system. So yeah, Matt is also correct. I think,

Idk I stopped reading after like, 50 chapters.

Tbh, Saint Seiya is one of THOSE power systems that seem soft and just random. But I cant deny that at least the core reasoning is most correct for this verse. Its core tenant is matter, I can make a case for it being atomic annihilation.

Obviously science blah blah blah but its a creative medium. Yeah, Matt is correct in pretty much contexts if we ran a test on Saint Seiya and we were being quized on Cosmo,

Actually, I think Kep is being generous since he hasnt dropped a tier in the OP, but I could have sworn there was a dark time in the wiki when Ch 1 SS was 8-C. But 8-A is...fine?

I still am neutral. I think if I had to pick, Id rather take Kep /Dargoo's side but that is more so like, I cant disagree with how science and math works lol.

 

[Schnee_One]

I do agree with Kep and Dargoo myself here as well

 

[Leonida85]

Since Kurumada has recognized both Omega and Saintia Sho, you should also recognize Sho and Omega Feats, especially when Koga atomizes several meters of earth in the first episode

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

This doesn't seem to be concluded yet.

Bump.

 

[Leonida85]

this is Koga from ep1 of Saint Seiya Omega


Is this good enough for atomization ?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

> Is this good enough for atomization ?

In of itself, no.

Although we prioritize manga scans over anime scans in either case.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

This about Seiya not Koga.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Even if there is a downgrade, 8-C / 8-A for Bronze Saints still feels too low. Since there's a statement in the novels that no man-made weapon can compare to the power of a Saint.

Also, in the anime version of the Black Saints' arc (Which is canon for Omega since that's basically Saint Seya GT), the fight between Shiryu and Black Dragon causes volcanic eruptions to occur.

 

[Schnee_One]

@Matt

There was a feat I remember long ago, that someone who was deemed unworthy of being a saint caused a hole through the earth

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Matt
There was a feat I remember long ago, that someone who was deemed unworthy of being a saint caused a hole through the earth

That feat is a bit out of context.

That guy was deemed unworthy of being a Saint because he lacked the morals and strength of character necessary to be a Saint of Athena and cared for nothing but senseless destruction and his own selfish growth of power (Lol, say that to Deathmask).

He planned to get revenge on the Sanctuary by doing serious damage to the Earth. To do that he hijacked a Nuclear Power Plant and planned to use his Cosmos to supercharge the plant, making it go haywire and causing a massive explosion that would blow a hole through the United States that would break through the other side of the planet on China.

It's indeed a ridiculously impressive feat... But it shouldn't scale to any Bronze Saint or Silver Saint (Save the absolute strongest silvers arguably) due to the simple fact that the Sanctuary sent a Gold Saint to stop him. By contrast, in the original series the Sanctuary didn't bother to send a Gold Saint against the Main Bronzes until they had defeated 10 Silver Saints already.

So them sending a Gold Saint against this guy shows that they did see him as a threat. Even if said Gold Saint was the then unexperienced Leo Aiolia who still effortlessly curbstomped him.

 

[AstralKing7]

Even if there is a downgrade, 8-C / 8-A for Bronze Saints still feels too low. Since there's a statement in the novels that no man-made weapon can compare to the power of a Saint.

Also, in the anime version of the Black Saints' arc (Which is canon for Omega since that's basically Saint Seya GT), the fight between Shiryu and Black Dragon causes volcanic eruptions to occur.

I do agree with this

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

So what are we gonna do?

Find a new feat for normal Bronze Saint level people, or just let the downgrade happen?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Even if there is a downgrade, 8-C / 8-A for Bronze Saints still feels too low. Since there's a statement in the novels that no man-made weapon can compare to the power of a Saint.

We'd of course need a large amount of context regarding that statement considering how broad and vague it is. Depending on the speaker, when this was said, and the exact wording, it might not mean anything, or it might be rather impressive.

Regardless though. A singular, vague statement does not make a consistent tier. Supporting, objective feats would be paramount, otherwise it's an inconsistency or an outlier.

As such, providing the statement in both the original language and translated language, and the source novel, would be needed to draw any meaningful conclusions.

Also, in the anime version of the Black Saints' arc (Which is canon for Omega since that's basically Saint Seya GT), the fight between Shiryu and Black Dragon causes volcanic eruptions to occur.

Again I need a lot more context here. Their fight causing a volcanic eruption doesn't, in of itself, have timeframe considered, doesn't have the fact that the volcano may have been already active or semi-active, et cetera, which would drastically change how we'd rate the feat.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

if you know whaat novel it is. i know someone who can probably get the japanese raw scans for it

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

That would be helpful, thank you.

 

[Kepekley23]

Just noticed something. If the non-Saint who was considered enough of a threat for a Gold Saint to be dispatched to deal with him needed to channel his cosmos through a normal Nuke to supercharge it into a weapon capable of causing that much damage, that goes against the "stronger than any man-made weapon" claim for normal Bronze Saints.

 

[Schnee_One]

Nitpick but It's the other way around he charged the nuclear power plant using his cosmos.

 

[SupremeGilgamesh]

And i was unnoticed by the looks of it

 

[Crateris_Aeson]

IBy contrast, in the original series the Sanctuary didn't bother to send a Gold Saint against the Main Bronzes until they had defeated 10 Silver Saints already.

Well, Shaka was sent by the Sanctuary to kill Jango and the Black Saints, but this does not indicate that they are a great threat or stronger that the Silver and Bronze Saints.