Saint Seiya - Practically Everyone Is 2-A Addition (well not really lol)

[TheUnshakableOne]

I made this cosmology blog to link to profiles to help with the justification of the 2-A rating.

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Who would scale to this? Practically all the Gods, and God Cloths, and those whom currently scale to them (so its not literally everyone lol)

There is also some other stuff that scales detailed out in this section below

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This strictly only applies to the manga profiles.

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Also, this canoncity blog was accepted in a past thread. It needs to become an official wiki page.

TheUnshakableOne/sandbox

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Edit:

we also have new scaling from a recent Time Odyssey chapter (which is canon as laid out in my Canon blog), and is the same Chronos listed in the profiles linked below.

Chronos and Cronus whom are currently rated at 2-A on their profiles is weaker than gods of Olympus (their the same being technically at different lifestages/time periods in the world of Saint Seiya, and that will be something overhauled later)


)

 

[Firestorm808]

Will read when available.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Will read when available.

A lot shorter than the last one. Could be some spelling errors and grammar errors though. There shouldn't be any tier 1 stuff other than what is already accepted in past CRTs. No infinite recursions here to discuss

Only Infinite universes and scaling characters to it

 

[Xxiaa]

Will read when available.

Mind tagging @Executor_N0? He’s helped in previous Saint Seiya related threads

 

[Hiryu-Z]

AGREED

2-A Seiya is so Based

 

[Linkbtw93]

Agreed definitely

 

[StekFence]

Agreed

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

May take a look later.

 

[Reiner04]

Dis
Agree.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I made this cosmology blog to link to profiles to help with the justification of the 2-A rating.

sandbox

vsbattles.fandom.com

Who would scale to this? Practically all the Gods, and God Cloths, and those whom currently scale to them

There is also some other stuff that scales detailed out in this section below

sandbox

vsbattles.fandom.com

This strictly only applies to the manga profiles.

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Also, this canoncity blog was accepted in a past thread. It needs to become an official wiki page.

TheUnshakableOne/sandbox

vsbattles.fandom.com

Neutral, trying to disagree on the scale of the Gods and the divine armor

As far as I remember, this mention of the universe being destroyed is a kind of domino effect, caused by Athena when going back to the past, mess with the timeline and will cause the destruction of the Universe or erase a certain timeline (example: Flash doing this when going back to the past and preventing his mother from dying)

Oh yes!(By the way, Chronos himself warns Athena about changes in the past)

In addition, it is mentioned by Pandora that Athena's return to the past changed the flow of time in the past. (for those who don't understand about these things). A light explanation, you go back in time prevent your father from meeting your mother, you will cease to exist or it will cause a severe change in the timeline (maybe even your own destruction with changes in history)

All events during the ND series show the knights and Athena changing the stories with mere events, such as the case of Odysseus who was not supposed to be resurrected during the series (all of this was caused by Athena and her bronze boys),

I also forgot to mention that because of Athena going back to the past, it prevented Sasha from awakening as Athena, drastically changing the past of the timeline.

In addition to delaying Hades' arrival in Alone's body


Odysseus mentioned that strange things can occur with two Athena in the same amount of time (which makes perfect sense with my argument I cited above).

Anyway, here is the definitive proof that Athena, when going back in the past, is causing this, it is said by Asclepius that she is breaking a law (making the entire universe collapse completely or timeline)

Summary of what I want to say to Op, this is not being caused by Athena's power to destroy the Universe, but rather by the severe changes that are happening when going to the past of another past

Well... That's all I have to give here about the scan mentioned in the blog about the Gods ( like Athena destroying the universe, by the way, this scan that is in the manga of the link )



I strongly disagree with any classic Gods climbing through this, they don't have the ability to affect all timelines at once.

 

[Hasty12345]

Irrespective of what's causing the events of ND, the Pope does imply any Olympian god can sdistort natural order to destroy the universe, it just say happens this was caused by Athena time travelling.

This is important as gods can't time travel, so the Pope was speaking to the power of the Olympian gods.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

In regards to third timelines it seems to make a lot of sense to me, although I've seen others besides ND and TLC

 

[StekFence]

As far as I remember, this mention of the universe being destroyed is a kind of domino effect, caused by Athena when going back to the past, mess with the timeline and will cause the destruction of the Universe or erase a certain timeline

This is true. However, the pope says that this level is something any Olympian could just straight up do. So she’d scale to it anyways.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Nothing here indicates 2-A.

The Olympians in Saint Seiya: Next Dimension are stated to be capable of “Destroying All Universes.”[24]

1. How did you come to this translation? In this sentence: 宇宙全ての摂理を狂わせるような大きな力が!, 全ての clearly connects to 摂理, not 宇宙. 全ての modifies what comes after it. You can see an example for the difference in wording of this in literally your own blog with the Saintia Sho scans. 全て also can mean entire and depends on context, for which there is zero to indicate all universes whatsoever.

ウフ･･･ ここはね、すべての宇宙のどの時空にも通じるところね

This is the place where all of the spacetime for all of the universes can be found.

A more accurate translation of this phrase would be "all the order in the universe", or for something adapted better to the respective languages, the natural order of the entire universe, such as in Shady's translation.


There's also the problem that this destruction was a chain reaction systematic collapse of the universe piece by piece caused by an attempt to change history, not a 3-A (let alone 2-A) explosion.

全宇宙の崩壊 "collapse of the entire universe"

In Saint Seiya: Dark Wing the antagonist, Demiurge, is stated to be capable of Threatening "All worlds."[25]

No, that only says that he plans take over the entire/all worlds. As I said 全ての can be either or, and for an extraordinary claim making the highest possible interpretation, there should be some extraordinary evidence, which there's none of in the story.

But in the end, it's not even relevant either way, since taking over the the world does not equate to any AP rating or the power to destroy it.

In Saint Seiya: Saintia Sho, it is implied by Dysmonia that only Gods can interfere with the many worlds that exist in "The Multiverse."[26] The Gods are also stated to have their fights extend across "time-spaces."[27]

No, they literally only talk about the power to interfere with living beings, this has absolutely nothing to do with affecting any structure of the cosmology.

But I know what you're thinking. Unfortunately, although we can make observations from here, we can't interfere with sentient beings. If we could, wouldn't that make us gods?

And the other scan just straight up isn't anything 2-A by any standard.

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[AerrowStorm1]

Agree.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I will have counter arguments shortly

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

2-A Saint Seiya is most definitely a thing, but the main concern is applying that to pretty much everyone.

 

[StekFence]

“Everyone” in this case literally refers only to the god tiers, so it should be ok

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

As far as I remember, this mention of the universe being destroyed is a kind of domino effect, caused by Athena when going back to the past, mess with the timeline and will cause the destruction of the Universe or erase a certain timeline (example: Flash doing this when going back to the past and preventing his mother from dying)

As Hasty, and Stek pointed out, the Pope specifically mentions "All Univeseses" with the Kanji 宇宙全 where 全 can mean "All" or a "Complete (set) of"

This group of Kanji appeared so often i had to get it translated multiple times.

Oh yes!(By the way, Chronos himself warns Athena about changes in the past)

In addition, it is mentioned by Pandora that Athena's return to the past changed the flow of time in the past. (for those who don't understand about these things). A light explanation, you go back in time prevent your father from meeting your mother, you will cease to exist or it will cause a severe change in the timeline (maybe even your own destruction with changes in history)

All events during the ND series show the knights and Athena changing the stories with mere events, such as the case of Odysseus who was not supposed to be resurrected during the series (all of this was caused by Athena and her bronze boys),

Oh yes!(By the way, Chronos himself warns Athena about changes in the past)

In addition, it is mentioned by Pandora that Athena's return to the past changed the flow of time in the past. (for those who don't understand about these things). A light explanation, you go back in time prevent your father from meeting your mother, you will cease to exist or it will cause a severe change in the timeline (maybe even your own destruction with changes in history)

All events during the ND series show the knights and Athena changing the stories with mere events, such as the case of Odysseus who was not supposed to be resurrected during the series (all of this was caused by Athena and her bronze boys),

I also forgot to mention that because of Athena going back to the past, it prevented Sasha from awakening as Athena, drastically changing the past of the timeline.

In addition to delaying Hades' arrival in Alone's body

This doesn't exist in Saint Seiya as i pointed out in this section

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we had 3 other examples of time travel before ND in Saint Seiya, and the changes caused by it never affected the "present"

Also, even with all that, its explicitly stated that the "Past" and "Future/Present" are completely and separate Univeses. As i detailed out in this section

"The Multiverse" has several very detailed elaborations on this structure within the series. The first is from Saint Seiya: Next Dimension. It is The Lake of Time on Olympus with Kronos, also known as Chronos, Khronos, Cronus, Cronos. From there the characters can see "All the galaxies that exist in The Universe."[12] The kanji used is 星雲 which can also mean Galaxy, and given the portrayal on manga it likely does mean Galaxy rather than a Nebula. If Athena, or Shun were too "put even one foot into another galaxy they would find themselves in a different future or a different past."[12] Now, this may sound like normal time travel for a single Universe, but it is not time travel. In more recently released chapters, we learned that Athena was stated to be "Coming from a far away spacetime."[10] We also learned in the far more recent chapter, far later into the story, that the Timeline of "The Past," "The Present," and "The Future" are different timelines. Thus, the story of Saint Seiya: Next Dimension is the story of two different, and separate Universes, and is not time travel.[13]

Anyway, here is the definitive proof that Athena, when going back in the past, is causing this, it is said by Asclepius that she is breaking a law (making the entire universe collapse completely or timeline)

Summary of what I want to say to Op, this is not being caused by Athena's power to destroy the Universe, but rather by the severe changes that are happening when going to the past of another past

Well... That's all I have to give here about the scan mentioned in the blog about the Gods ( like Athena destroying the universe, by the way, this scan that is in the manga of the link )

Id like to point out that that Luffys intentions on the verse are questionable, he was recently called out earlier this week for having beef with Saint Seiya Fandom.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-super-discussion-thread-100.107592/post-5940827

Read down from this comment.

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How did you come to this translation? In this sentence: 宇宙全ての摂理を狂わせるような大きな力が!, 全ての clearly connects to 摂理, not 宇宙. 全ての modifies what comes after it. You can see an example for the difference in wording of this in literally your own blog with the Saintia Sho scans. 全て also can mean entire and depends on context, for which there is zero to indicate all universes whatsoever.

宇宙 (uchuu): This remains the same, meaning "universe" in Japanese. However, it's important to note that "宇宙" (uchuu) can also be used in the plural sense to refer to multiple universes or a vast number of cosmic realms.

全て (subete): This word still means "all" or "everything," emphasizing the inclusiveness of what follows, now applied to multiple universes.

の (no): This possessive particle connects "universe" (宇宙) and "all" (全て) in the plural sense, indicating that it applies to all universes.

摂理 (setsuri): As before, this term refers to the natural order or principles that govern each and every universe.

を (wo): The direct object marker, as explained earlier, marks "摂理" (setsuri) as the direct object of the sentence.

狂わせる (kuruwaseru): This verb form still means "to cause to go mad" or "to disturb," but now it signifies that the force in question is capable of affecting and disrupting the natural order of all universes.

ような (you na): This phrase continues to indicate similarity or likeness. The force is "like" or "similar to" something that can disrupt the natural order of all universes.

大きな (ookina): This adjective, meaning "big" or "large," describes the magnitude or intensity of the force that can affect multiple universes.

力 (chikara): This word remains the same, referring to "power" or "force" capable of exerting its effect on all universes.

And i have already proven, contextually in this section that it is 2 separate and Universes in ND the story

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and I have proven in this section that time travel doesn't work in any way in the Saint Seiya Verse

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There's also the problem that this destruction was a chain reaction systematic collapse of the universe piece by piece caused by an attempt to change history, not a 3-A (let alone 2-A) explosion.

As Hasty, and Stek pointed out, this is a power all Olympians have

全宇宙の崩壊 "collapse of the entire universe"

全宇宙 appears which in the Context of the Story, as i have proven in this section of my blog;

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it means "All Universes."

No, that only says that he plans take over the entire/all worlds. As I said 全ての can be either or, and for an extraordinary claim making the highest possible interpretation, there should be some extraordinary evidence, which there's none of in the story.

But in the end, it's not even relevant either way, since taking over the the world does not equate to any AP rating or the power to destroy it.

I think you misunderstood here, him being able to be a threat to all worlds is also because he take over all worlds. This is range feat at but still shows the Gods are capable of 2-A Feats.

No, they literally only talk about the power to interfere with living beings, this has absolutely nothing to do with affecting any structure of the cosmology.

And the other scan just straight up isn't anything 2-A by any standard.

Same as the above, 2-A range feat with hax at the very least. Still shows gods have 2-A feats

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Id also like to point out that the opposition missed a section on Dunamis which has scaling implications

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

2-A Saint Seiya is most definitely a thing, but the main concern is applying that to pretty much everyone.

it actually won't scale to literally everyone lol.

it iwll only scale Olympians, and then whoever scales to them.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks alright to me in that case.

 

[Danny33wise]

This seem fine to me. I was honestly waiting for a 1c/1b ss but I guess that could wait.

I obviously agree with this.

 

[Hiryu-Z]

it actually won't scale to literally everyone lol.

it iwll only scale Olympians, and then whoever scales to them.

Would Thanatos and Hypnos also scale?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Would Thanatos and Hypnos also scale?

Currently, I'm not seeing a way, but that could change. Though, it likely could happen with God Cloths.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Id like to point out that that Luffys intentions on the verse are questionable, he was recently called out earlier this week for having beef with Saint Seiya Fandom.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-super-discussion-thread-100.107592/post-5940827

No need to get nervous, we're just joking between friends, but if you want to denounce me go ahead, I don't see what this has to do with my argument here, this is so unnecessary...

 

[StekFence]

Currently, I'm not seeing a way, but that could change. Though, it likely could happen with God Cloths.

I’m thinking of adding a second key to god cloths that is more comparable to Olympians, but it also happens to be like, infinitely stronger then base god cloths so thanatos and Hypnos might not

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I’m thinking of adding a second key to god cloths that is more comparable to Olympians, but it also happens to be like, infinitely stronger then base god cloths so thanatos and Hypnos might not

Bro, the golden ones like Shaka would climb for this?

 

[StekFence]

Don’t see how a gold saint would scale to it

 

[Hasty12345]

Don’t see how a gold saint would scale to it

Does Shura still count as a gold Saint?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Does Shura still count as a gold Saint?

I believe so, man

 

[StekFence]

Does Shura still count as a gold Saint?

He transcended humanity so he’s an exception, I meant “normal strength” golds like the hades arc ones

 

[Hasty12345]

I believe so, man

Idk Shura do be doing things

 

[Hasty12345]

He transcended humanity so he’s an exception, I meant “normal strength” golds like the hades arc ones

Yeah none of them scale, not at all

EDIT: sorry for double post, on mobile

 

[Xxiaa]

Agree

 

[AlexZiggy]

Late to the party, but I agree.

 

[Lynieryz]

Agree FRA

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

As Hasty, and Stek pointed out, the Pope specifically mentions "All Univeseses" with the Kanji 宇宙全 where 全 can mean "All" or a "Complete (set) of"

This group of Kanji appeared so often i had to get it translated multiple times.

全 means the entirety just as often. Literally if you just look into it, 全宇宙, 90% of the time means entire universe.

This doesn't exist in Saint Seiya as i pointed out in this section

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we had 3 other examples of time travel before ND in Saint Seiya, and the changes caused by it never affected the "present"

What you posted is from other series not written by Kurumada, that as it stands contradicts what Next Dimension says (where even Chronos acknowledges that history can be changed). Even if changing the past weren't possible (the important change of making Hades lose his sword hasn't even happened in the story yet if it does), this only means that Athena will fail to change the past, not that she literally went to a different universe in an attempt change to the past, which makes no sense whatsoever.

This idea of past present future being different universes is an oxymoron in itself that goes against every single character motive and dialogue and the very plot. Though even if they somehow actually were, this wouldn't change how universe is being used here and just confirm the destruction of the past universe.

And i have already proven, contextually in this section that it is 2 separate and Universes in ND the story

sandbox

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and I have proven in this section that time travel doesn't work in any way in the Saint Seiya Verse

sandbox

vsbattles.fandom.com

As Hasty, and Stek pointed out, this is a power all Olympians have

Where does it show that time travel doesn't work? Future seemingly didn't change (in that series)=/= time travel itself doesn't work, if anything what you posted from GA shows that time travel itself is still possible. This is what Athena did in Next Dimension as well, and it remains to be seen whether she'll succeed, as the story isn't over.

That doesn't really matter, because he nonetheless only describes the power to distort the order of the universe and create a chain reaction where the universe corrodes overtime.

全宇宙 appears which in the Context of the Story, as i have proven in this section of my blog;

sandbox

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it means "All Universes."

There is no other context that indicates 全宇宙 refers to all universes here and not entire universe.

Even Shady translated this scene as "entire universe."


Also if you check the Japanese version of chapter 74, it literally confirms that it only refers to the entire universe.

Literally says 宇宙全体 which is entire universe and only that (全体 only means entire in any case), confirming that, unsurprisingly, as almost always, 全宇宙 here simply means entire universe.

Along with this, consider the context told and shown in the story before trying to interpret a phrase to it's highest possible and uncommon meaning.

-The distortion of the universe is being caused because Athena tried to mess with the space-time of a timeline to change future events. There is zero reason to think anomalies inside one timeline would affect other completely separate independent timelines

-When it's actually visually depicted by the author (scan above), it shows a 3-A range overtime systematic destruction of the celestial bodies of one universe.

-They literally even temporarily go to other nearby universes after the distortion of the order of the universe has already happened and is in effect, and said places are completely unaffected whatsoever, Shiryu even spends decades in one and it's completely peaceful.

On the other hand, even if the past and future being universes idea were true, there's 0 context indicating it refers to the entire multiverse. You have to reach for the sky and ignore everything shown in the story to think anything about all universes was mentioned here.

Edit: What's the thing about Dunamis, I don't see how this warrants a 2-A rating ether.

 

[Veronica]

全 means the entirety just as often. Literally if you just look into it, 全宇宙, 90% of the time means entire universe.

What you posted is from other series not written by Kurumada, that as it stands contradicts what Next Dimension says (where even Chronos acknowledges that history can be changed). Even if changing the past weren't possible (the important change of making Hades lose his sword hasn't even happened in the story yet if it does), this only means that Athena will fail to change the past, not that she literally went to a different universe in an attempt change to the past, which makes no sense whatsoever.

This idea of past present future being different universes is an oxymoron in itself that goes against every single character motive and dialogue and the very plot. Though even if they somehow actually were, this wouldn't change how universe is being used here and just confirm the destruction of the past universe.

Where does it show that time travel doesn't work? Future seemingly didn't change (in that series)=/= time travel itself doesn't work, if anything what you posted from GA shows that time travel itself is still possible. This is what Athena did in Next Dimension as well, and it remains to be seen whether she'll succeed, as the story isn't over.

That doesn't really matter, because he nonetheless only describes the power to distort the order of the universe and create a chain reaction where the universe corrodes overtime.

There is no other context that indicates 全宇宙 refers to all universes here and not entire universe.

Even Shady translated this scene as "entire universe."


Also if you check the Japanese version of chapter 74, it literally confirms that it only refers to the entire universe.

Literally says 宇宙全体 which is entire universe and only that (全体 only means entire in any case), confirming that, unsurprisingly, as almost always, 全宇宙 here simply means entire universe.

Along with this, consider the context told and shown in the story before trying to interpret a phrase to it's highest possible and uncommon meaning.

-The distortion of the universe is being caused because Athena tried to mess with the space-time of a timeline to change future events. There is zero reason to think anomalies inside one timeline would affect other completely separate independent timelines

-When it's actually visually depicted by the author (scan above), it shows a 3-A range overtime systematic destruction of the celestial bodies of one universe.

-They literally even temporarily go to other nearby universes after the distortion of the order of the universe has already happened and is in effect, and said places are completely unaffected whatsoever, Shiryu even spends decades in one and it's completely peaceful.

On the other hand, even if the past and future being universes idea were true, there's 0 context indicating it refers to the entire multiverse. You have to reach for the sky and ignore everything shown in the story to think anything about all universes was mentioned here.

Edit: What's the thing about Dunamis, I don't see how this warrants a 2-A rating ether.

A universe contains multiple parallel worlds, actually? Infinite of them, with even their own time axis, and guess what? The big bang, created the whole infinitely existing multi parallel worlds into one, universe.

Confirmed here, by the description of Photon Burst, the whole space and time was created by the big bang.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

全 means the entirety just as often. Literally if you just look into it, 全宇宙, 90% of the time means entire universe.

What you posted is from other series not written by Kurumada, that as it stands contradicts what Next Dimension says (where even Chronos acknowledges that history can be changed). Even if changing the past weren't possible (the important change of making Hades lose his sword hasn't even happened in the story yet if it does), this only means that Athena will fail to change the past, not that she literally went to a different universe in an attempt change to the past, which makes no sense whatsoever.

This idea of past present future being different universes is an oxymoron in itself that goes against every single character motive and dialogue and the very plot. Though even if they somehow actually were, this wouldn't change how universe is being used here and just confirm the destruction of the past universe.

Where does it show that time travel doesn't work? Future seemingly didn't change (in that series)=/= time travel itself doesn't work, if anything what you posted from GA shows that time travel itself is still possible. This is what Athena did in Next Dimension as well, and it remains to be seen whether she'll succeed, as the story isn't over.

That doesn't really matter, because he nonetheless only describes the power to distort the order of the universe and create a chain reaction where the universe corrodes overtime.

There is no other context that indicates 全宇宙 refers to all universes here and not entire universe.

Even Shady translated this scene as "entire universe."


Also if you check the Japanese version of chapter 74, it literally confirms that it only refers to the entire universe.

Literally says 宇宙全体 which is entire universe and only that (全体 only means entire in any case), confirming that, unsurprisingly, as almost always, 全宇宙 here simply means entire universe.

Along with this, consider the context told and shown in the story before trying to interpret a phrase to it's highest possible and uncommon meaning.

-The distortion of the universe is being caused because Athena tried to mess with the space-time of a timeline to change future events. There is zero reason to think anomalies inside one timeline would affect other completely separate independent timelines

-When it's actually visually depicted by the author (scan above), it shows a 3-A range overtime systematic destruction of the celestial bodies of one universe.

-They literally even temporarily go to other nearby universes after the distortion of the order of the universe has already happened and is in effect, and said places are completely unaffected whatsoever, Shiryu even spends decades in one and it's completely peaceful.

On the other hand, even if the past and future being universes idea were true, there's 0 context indicating it refers to the entire multiverse. You have to reach for the sky and ignore everything shown in the story to think anything about all universes was mentioned here.

Edit: What's the thing about Dunamis, I don't see how this warrants a 2-A rating ether.

I'll have counter arguments tomorrow

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

A universe contains multiple parallel worlds, actually? Infinite of them, with even their own time axis, and guess what?

If I'm not mistaken, this notion was among those that were refuted in the last thread and dropped for this remade thread with new proposals. Even the blog in the OP seems to have been tweaked to match that, as I no longer see any mention of "universe" referring to the totality of existence like before.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:TheUnshakableOne/sandbox

The universe is just the universe.

The big bang, created the whole infinitely existing multi parallel worlds into one, universe.

Confirmed here, by the description of Photon Burst, the whole space and time was created by the big bang.

No, if I'm not mistaken we already accept that the other universes in the cosmology are created through MWI, not through the Big Bang, which in Kurumada's manga it's confirmed only created one universe through an explosion that dispersed condensed matter.

And where does the guidebook say it created "the whole space and time"? I don't see that anywhere in the scan. Even if it did, it would be the whole space-time of one universe (as is the standard of Big Bangs and described in the manga), not every universe.