Ok so first in Ch 29, Shion says Suikyo will likely lose to Ox. Shun even calls Ox’s Cosmo terrifying. And Suikyo says Ox should have used his power from the beginning. I think that could imply Ox could have won at full power, but Suikyo whilst also not trying to kill Ox, but putting him in hibernation of sorts, pierces his gold cloth and defeats him. So Suikyo is prob at least a bit stronger.
HOWEVER, in ch28, we are told Suikyo’s power is below half because of Ikki. So Ox could be stronger then below 50% Suikyo, but likely is far inferior to a fully powered Suikyo.
Ox destroyed Suikyō’s Surplice and left him vomiting blood with a single movement of his hand. Ox was not inferior to Suikyō in any way; in fact, based on what is shown, he appears superior, since a casual attack from Ox caused severe damage, and if he had attacked with Great Horn instead of a simple hand strike, Suikyō would have died. While it is true that Suikyō managed to knock Ox unconscious, this only happened because Ox did not attack with his full power at the beginning, which led to a moment of carelessness that Suikyō took advantage of to strike first with a technique.
Ikki only mentions that the Hōō Genma Ken affected him by about 50%, which is why he began to hallucinate about his past and the moment his brother died. However, it is never stated that this weakened him in any way. On the contrary, thanks to that attack, he gained greater mental resistance, and because of this he was able to partially withstand Abel’s Genrōmaōken.
Next Dimension: Volumen 4 (Chapter 28), pág 26
Ikki: No… unfortunately, judging by the feel of it, I only managed to inflict less than half the damage (いや･･･残念だが手ごたえとしては半分以下のダメージしか与えられなかった)
Ikki: It wasn’t enough to shatter his mind (精神を砕くまでは至らず)
Ikki: At best, it probably just caused old nightmares to resurface… (せいぜい昔の悪夢がよみがえるていレ程度だろう･･･)
This only confirms that Suikyo possesses some degree of mental resistance, which is why Ikki’s attack could not fully affect him. However, as we later observed, Suikyo was completely affected by Abel’s Genrōmaōken. He was only able to partially withstand the technique due to the resistance he gained from being struck by the Hōō Genma Ken, but as shown, he was able to break free from the technique solely because he had killed Tenma for a few seconds by stopping his heart.
Genuinely this is ridiculous. Deathtoll comments that Suikyo doesn’t have more than a child’s strength left in his arms. Aka, Suikyo’s power has been drastically reduced by the constant mental damage he’s taken(possibly the physical damage as well).
His blows were weak, like those of a child, to Deathtoll, because they did not cause him any damage. The only one who had inflicted any significant damage on Suikyō at that point was Ox, since Cain only landed a few hits that did not deal much damage.
This doesn’t make any sense. Ikki enters the temple, and gets hit by the silence. He attacks Shijima’s afterimage and nothing happens because Shjima isn’t really there. Ikki’s eardrums burst, and his brain cells are going. Then the four doors are used on him. Then Oddy nullifies the silence. And then Ikki is put to sleep. Ikki wakes up, steps through a door, and is thrown into a spacetime rift. What are you talking about??? There’s literally no point where Shjima demonstrates actual power superior to ikki, only that Ikki cannot counter the lack of noise.
The silence is a space created by Shijima’s cosmos, and projections created by a cosmos can be destroyed only by someone who possesses a superior cosmos, something Ikki was unable to do. Throughout the entire fight, Ikki was at Shijima’s mercy, and it is made clear that Shijima could have defeated or killed him with any movement, since Ikki was never able to match Shijima’s cosmos in order to defend himself or overcome his techniques. This only confirms that the Virgo Saint has always been vastly superior to Ikki. In fact, even Odysseus himself mentions that Shijima did not truly go all out against him and was merely playing with him.
Deathmask with the evil seed is stronger. However, Elda is talking to a Deathmask who has been purified of his Evil Seed, absolutely no dryad influence whatsoever, because Deathmask just flung into a different dimension. She specifically is taking to, and so is referring to, Gold Cloth Deathmask. And she doesn’t just mean Deathmask as he currently is, possibly boosted by justice. Her flashbacks indicate she’s talking about Deathmask period, flat out, no modifiers at all.
Erda only accepts Deathmask as a true Saint at that moment, but she never indicates that he was more powerful than before, nor that Deathmask’s cosmos was comparable to or superior to hers or Mu’s. She simply mentions that he was really strong and that he was cool.
YES! And Chagall is stronger than Rhad. So if non awakened specters can be stronger then awakened specters of the same surplice, then they are only given a minimum level of power, and can independently per incarnation have more.
As I mentioned, he is not stronger, since at best he should be equally strong, given that Chagall had not fully awakened as a Specter, unlike Radamanthys.
Radamanthys is essentially the fully awakened Wyvern Specter, and that is why he obtained the name Radamanthys, which is the name of the mythological Specter who served Hades.
The incarnation itself does not matter, because Specters are reincarnated souls. That is why the Evil Stars choose them, in order to bring the mythological Specters back once again. The only time this does not apply is when Hades, Pandora, Thanatos, Hypnos, or any high-ranking member of Hades’ army personally chooses a host for an Evil Star who is different from the one originally destined for it, in order to turn them into a member of Hades’ army. A good example of this is Suikyo, who was chosen directly by Pandora, and therefore did not possess Garuda’s techniques, since, being a Saint, the Surplice was never able to dominate his body and soul.
Then you must concede Bronzes at that point scale to Minos. Which was the original contention I had.
Yes, the Bronzeboys can reach the level of a Gold Saint when they raise their cosmos to the maximum, but they cannot do so consistently, since reaching that level is still a challenge for them and they can only achieve it for a brief moment. However, as I said, they are not superior to the Gold Saints in any way, because even at their maximum level they are still inferior to the elite among the Gold Saints.
It was golem rock, or maybe troll Ivan, don’t recall exactly who. Hyoga beats the other, but that’s because of Absolute zero.
Neither of those two Specters is really impressive, which is why they were defeated so easily.
I’m not convinced that’s exactly how it works, but I don’t think it’s a big deal. Shiryu specifically says his Cosmo is raising to the level of gold saints, ie shura as that’s the only one he fought with his 7th sense, as DM was via a rage amp. He even directly references defeating the golds.
Reaching the level of a Gold Saint is not the same as reaching the cosmos they displayed during the Sanctuary arc in moments of desperation, when they surpassed their limits to equal or even surpass the Gold Saints for a brief moment. As I mentioned, on that occasion they were aided by Nike, and some of them also had external factors that amplified their cosmos. For example, in Shiryu’s case, the fury he felt toward Deathmask after believing that Shunrei had been killed.
We can even see that at that moment, Shiryu’s Rozan Shōryū Ha, with the Seventh Sense and his cosmos pushed to its absolute limit, manifested as multiple dragons to defeat his opponent—something we have never seen again. This indicates that that particular Rozan Shōryū Ha was stronger than the one Shiryu used at any other time when merely reaching the level of a Gold Saint.
Moreover, Lance Krishna is holding back his true power. He states that now that his Lance is broken, he needs toget serious, and his kundalini, ie cosmo, has awakened.
The spear is a weapon with its own power, similar to Libra’s weapons, which possess power of their own and, in the hands of any Saint regardless of rank, grant power equivalent to or even greater than a Gold Saint’s attack, although as we know, these weapons can become even more powerful through cosmos. Therefore, Krishna’s cosmos increased even without his spear, but that does not mean he was that strong without it, since it was thanks to the power of the spear that he was able to pierce the Dragon Cloth. Without the spear, Krishna was so weak that he could not even seriously injure an unarmored Shiryu.
ND as I’ve mentioned, demonstrates the exact power between incarnations is not even positively correlated with awakening level. For another example, Shoichiro beat the evil god out of his brother while surpassing the big bang, which isn’t something an average Wyvern could do, while also not being fully awakened. If what you argue was true, Classic rhad would be stronger then Chagall, and also above Big Bangs. And since he’s not, you are wrong.
Actually, despite being fully awakened, Classic Rhad is THE weakest Wyvern in the series, and so the argument that the soul provides most of the power is wrong. Therefore, Classic Rhad isn’t auto stronger then Aiacos no matter what just because he’s the Wyvern specter.
In Next Dimension, this is never mentioned or suggested. On the contrary, it only expands on the concept of the Specters presented in the original manga, where it is clearly explained that they are always the same souls; therefore, their power should not be different, as long as their selection as a Specter is normal and not an anomaly.
Shoichiro is recognized as an anomaly even within his own series, since thanks to Moros, they were able to retain their personalities and fully awaken as Specters without losing their minds or hearts. Moreover, this allows them to reach a different state, as they can obtain the spirit of the Surplice to increase their power; thus, they are literally two Specters combined into one, as happened with Zhu, who became as powerful as a Gold Saint by entering into resonance with Valentine’s spirit and obtaining his full power as a Specter. This situation is considered an anomaly within the series itself, since even Charlotte suggests that Zhu should not be that strong, as they are not Specters at the level of a Gold Saint. In this case, Shoichiro is an anomaly even within this abnormal universe, because from the very beginning he was always in resonance with the spirit of Radamanthys, as both share the same objective: protecting Yoruhime (Pandora).
However, this does not happen with the Specters in any other universe, since they cannot free themselves from Hades’ control in that way. The only way they could be free and gain control over their powers as Specters, without having their soul and mind suppressed by the Evil Star, would be by attaining the Eighth Sense, which, as Chris describes in the recent chapter of The Lost Canvas, is a power beyond the physical body, a power that can be born from feelings so strong that they transcend time and space and that allows mortals to challenge the gods.
Sure. Oh also, I’m not sure if it’s consistent, but Aiacos’s movements are seen as flashes of light to Kanon, indicating superior speed, backing up his own statements and the taizen. Ikki also confirms his speed, noting he had to surpass it, indicating Aiacos is being truthful.
the false statement is Kanon threatening to kill the judges, getting slammed by aiacos, comboed into nearly getting his neck snapped by Minos as the second attack of their entire group fight. He then proceeds to get bailed out by Ikki, who has a Cosmo stronger then any saint in the UW, at implied by Pandora.
This is similar to Radamanthys getting ahead of Kanon and attacking him with Greatest Caution; he also managed to strike Kanon directly, but he did not manage to kill him with a single attack. Or like Saga getting ahead of Aiolia and hitting him with a blow at the speed of light; that attack failed to injure him, and we can see how Aiolia perfectly defends himself against Saga’s second attack, after which the two begin an evenly matched fight. As I said, he simply struck Kanon, but it did absolutely nothing to him; Kanon could have stood back up and defeated him with any of his techniques.
Yes, like that description, and also like Aiacos claiming that he could kill Kanon, even though he could not inflict even a single scratch on him with his attack. He could not even leave a mark on something as weak as Ikki’s Bronze Cloth, an armor without the blood of a Gold Saint or Athena. That makes it quite illogical to think that he could damage Kanon, who was wearing a Gold Cloth, the most powerful armor in Athena’s army.
Pandora only reacts to how violent Ikki’s cosmos is compared to the rest of the Saints who entered the Underworld; however, as we know, this does not indicate Ikki’s actual strength. Ikki begins his battles with the power of a Bronze Saint, which is his base level, as happens in his fight against Cain, where his attacks start at supersonic speed and he was unable to react to Cain’s light speed attacks.
As I said, Kanon survived an attack from Radamanthys, who was more powerful than the four protagonists combined and Orphee, so this confirms that Aiacos’s attack could never have defeated him. Unless we assume that Kanon was weakened at that moment by all the battles he fought in the Underworld and that he was literally a one-man army, defeating all the Specters in his path, likely being the one who defeated the majority of the 108 Specters.
again, top 1-2 specter for some reason.
I do not recall anything that indicates that this Specter is considerably strong; even the attack with which he was supposedly going to kill them is merely throwing large rocks at the opponent through telekinesis.
Just because gold saints existed doesn’t mean not everybody had the 7th sense. Gold saints have always existed in the age of myth, even when Kuru wrote that. This is odd as a counterargument for that reason. The only way this works is if we assume there’s no possible way for power gaps to be exist between 7th sense users. Which is false.
As for Tyr, he can be a 7th sense user without being equal to Camus, as Camus is exceptionally powerful even for a gold Saint.
It is because they do not possess the Seventh Sense, since it is not the era described in that account about the cosmos. The time when that occurred was a much older age, when there was no distinction between mortals and gods, meaning that any mortal was as capable as a god in that era.
The era in which the battle against Poseidon takes place is not that ancient, and humans do not possess the Seventh Sense, nor are they equal to the gods. That is why a Saint like the Dragon of that era is described as someone special among the Saints, because even though he was a Bronze Saint, he was comparable to a Gold Saint. Thus, the Dragon was unique and exceptional within his army for possessing that level of strength, which means that the rest of the Saints did not have a cosmos of that level, since they were merely Bronze Saints whose strength is superhuman, but not at the level of a Gold Saint.
The problem is that Tyr is not even close to an Aquarius Saint or to Hyoga; he is simply far inferior to them. To achieve a feat that is inferior to what those two could accomplish, he had to concentrate his cosmos for seven days and sacrifice his life. In other words, he used the same method Shaka uses to amplify his cosmos by accumulating it, but even then it was not enough and he still had to sacrifice his life, and even so he only achieved a feat inferior to what either of those two could do.
Tyr was simply a Bronze Saint stronger than average, and the same applies to Pheebe. Both of them were capable of fighting the Mariners, and Pheebe even managed to defeat Kraken while she was on the brink of death. The Generals have never been very powerful in this universe; that is why Poseidon is a lesser enemy of Athena.
The issue is that only setsuna has gold level power, according to Kiki, so Mariya’s performance at gold level is either very temporary miracle type stuff, or we just aren’t interpreting it right (such as considering the possibility that the specters are weaker this time)
The level of cosmos that Setsuna reached at that moment is comparable to that of a Gold Cloth, not a Gold Saint. That is why Kiki mentions that it is of a golden level, and Setsuna manages to defeat the Pisces Cloth. However, as Kiki himself explains, a Cloth without an owner is not as powerful as the Saint who wears it; only when it chooses a bearer does it display its true power. This detail can be seen when Adonis takes control of the Pisces Cloth and states that he will now show them the true power of a Gold Saint. At that moment, Aphrodite fully manifests and defeats them both in a single second, as his strength is completely incomparable to theirs.
Setsuna has a higher potential than Mariya, something Kiki describes in the story. At that moment, Shun granted her greater power so that she could protect Mariya, but as we later see, this was only temporary, just like the moments when the Pegasus Cloth grants Mariya greater power. That is why we later saw Setsuna being defeated by the Centaur Cloth.
As the author herself stated, the girls are just children with no training at all. They may have some potential to use cosmos, which is why they were chosen by the Cloths, but their power and abilities are granted to them by the Cloths they wear. Therefore, that was the power Misty bestowed upon Mariya so that she could defeat Queen.
The AMOUNT of damage overall would be the same though. His skin and muscle is pierced at the end of the day. I think Kaasa’s thing is pretty straight forwards.
It is quite simple, because all of his attacks are actually illusions. Kasa merely strikes the opponent while their mind is under the effects of an illusion, which makes them believe things that are not real. In Hyoga’s case, he feels an ice attack, even though the attack was never made of ice, and in Ikki’s case, he felt Esmeralda stabbing a knife into his body, even though he was never actually struck by Kasa. This is part of the hypnotic effect of the illusion, which alters the victim’s perception and senses.
Are we really saying that sleep manipulation hax is a power feat.
Yes, but those are Orphee’s powers, who, as a warrior even more powerful than the Gold Saints, can affect the Judges and Pandora without any difficulty. Even if Radamanthys had not been there to protect them, Orphee would have defeated all of them effortlessly, since they cannot defend themselves against his techniques and do not have the power to confront Orphee.
Generally true, but Baian is obviously an exception, being said to not lose to Seiya in power, being comparable to gold, and yet also being only relativistic
Not generally — it is always that way, since speed in Saint Seiya is proportional to the user’s cosmos. That is why the Gold Saints, who are the twelve strongest warriors in existence, and the Judges can move at the speed of light, and in some cases, if they raise their cosmos to the limit, they can even surpass that speed. If a character does not reach the speed of light, it is because they are much weaker than a Gold Saint.
