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Not saying you are wrong but can I see the scan?
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Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)
- Thread starter TheUnshakableOne
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- saint seiya
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Time to let it go man.
Nonynho
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Nah
Just a simple CRT which affects like 5 characters?
May I ask if any of you will actively oppose if I do this CRT again?
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Shaka doesn’t scale to any God character man
The story clearly places a gap between Gods and gold saints.
Nonynho
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Hashun ≠ Hades
And Athena said Shaka would hurt Shun's body, of course never mentioning he'd be able to hurt Hades
What's wrong with "Possibly 4-A physically" in the first key?
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Shun Hades threatened to spear both Athena and Shaka together.
It’s very clearly outlined in both the classic and ND that
Gods in human bodies> gold saints
Baby Athena is able to deflect attacks from golds as human god baby
Athena not fully awakened is stated to have a Cosmo greater than the golds
ND highlights Athena in a toddler body has a greater Cosmo>> than Shijima who just had a universal clash against Nirvana Shaka, and runs into Athena and immediately starts sweating and hyping up her divine cosmo as a toddler/little kid
And Shun Hades threatens Athena who’s already stronger than her gold saints, so confidently that he thinks he can spear both Athena and Shaka
You were wrong 3 years ago, you’re still wrong today
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Unless the evidence provided is substantially different from any previous, I would disagree with Shaka scaling to
hashun. Even through Shaka is stronger then Seiya and shun, the difference is not that extreme that Shaka can just throw a spear and one shot Shun. Even Hades Alone would stomp Shaka, and that’s a normal human using a fraction of an unwilling gods power.
Athena told Shaka not to throw the spear, because there’s just no point. And again, a full power Shun is stronger than Shaka, before we factor in Hades himself.
Furthermore, semi possessed hades shun tanked an attack from Ikki with absolutely 0 damage, saying Ikki is unable to scratch him. Even more, When Shaka does throw the spear, hades reaction is literally “damn you’re rude, guess I’ll kill you first.” He has zero fear of Shaka.
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She said “WE” actually. And in the event Shak could harm someone who no diffed Ikki (who’s stronger then Shaka) in a weakened state, there’s no point.
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Come on Stek why won't you glaze Shaka like Shanks fanboys glaze Shanks over Mihawk!!!!
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Literally not one other person would support it, would be a waste of time just let it go.
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My glaze is reserved for Kaasa
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Outside the wiki no one glaze Kaasa, while tons of people glaze Shaka to ungodly levels
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Ikki is weaker than Shaka. In general, all the Bronze Saints are weaker than Shaka. We can even see how Shaka knocked down Seiya (at full power) with a single finger. And Ikki himself was easily outmatched by Shijima, who admits that he is weaker than Shaka.
As for that scene with Hades, although Athena mentions “we,” she says this at the moment she stops Shaka from attacking, so the context suggests that both Athena’s attacks and Shaka’s attacks could have harmed Hades at that moment. However, as she herself points out, it would not have been so easy to damage Hades while he was inside Shun’s body.
Shaka: Now it is nothing more than Shun’s corpse, completely dominated by Hades in both mind and body. (今や心身ともに完璧にハーデスに支配されている瞬の骸にすぎないのです)
Shaka: The true Shun is as good as already dead. (本当の瞬は既に死んだも同然)
Shaka: In fact, he would surely wish for Hades to be destroyed here and now. (むしろここでハーデスを打ち砕くことを望んでくれているはずです)
Athena: But even if we were to attack now, Hades within Shun would not be easily destroyed. (けれど今攻撃を加えたとしても瞬の中のハーデスはくだ容易に打ち砕けないでしょう)
Athena: It would only needlessly injure Shun’s body. Therefore… (ただいたずらに瞬の肉体を傷つけるだけにすぎませんだから･･･)
Therefore, Shaka can damage Hades while he is inside Shun’s body, although it would not be easy for him to defeat Hades’ spirit. This makes sense considering that, in Saintia Shō, Shaka was able to briefly stop a meteor empowered by the power of three gods (Athena, Eris, and Ares/Lemur), and he also managed to injure Ares/Lemur (who possessed his own power as the new God of War, the power he absorbed from Athena, and the power he stole from Eris through the Golden Apple) with his Tenma Kōfuku.
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All post hades arc material that tells us how strong Saga/Kanon are says they are the strongest. So Ikki being > Aiacos who is > Kanon would make him stronger. Furthermore, in ND, it’s stated that Geminis are stronger than Virgos, at least in the case of Saga/shaka and Cain/Shjima. And in soul of gold, Saga is the strongest saint Athena has ever had. And so by the hades arc at least, Ikki should be > the golds. As for Shjima, at no point did he ever actually strike Ikki, only hax. (Although Ikki does wonder if Shjima is stronger then Shaka).
As for the We thing, looking back, I think you are right. It is being implied that they would have just harmed Shun. The problem I have is, that it would have been a matter of Hades allowing it, given what I’ve outlined above. Furthermore, Shaka doesn’t scale to eris/Ares Saga in any substantial way, otherwise Saintia Sho has 0 stakes. Even then, Ikki and Hades arc Shaka are both leagues above Sho/sanctuary Shaka, and so then Ikki would be able to hurt Hades, even though he specifically can’t at all.
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Ikki is not stronger than Kanon. We even saw how Kanon (wearing an inferior armor, a Scale) easily surpassed Ikki. Aiacos is not stronger than Kanon either; the only thing he managed to do against Kanon was hit him with his strongest technique, but it did not even cause any significant injury or damage to the armor. The fact that Aiacos believed he could kill Kanon with his technique is nothing more than the character’s typical ego, just as Orphee believed he could kill Hades with his technique, or as Deathmask also believed he could kill Mu with a single blow.
If we were to use the characters’ typical ego, we would end up with something like this:
Radamanthys >>>>>>> Orphee >>>>>>> Hades
Kanon even survived an attack from Radamanthys, the most powerful Judge of the Underworld, who mortally wounded Orphee, who was described as stronger than the Gold Saints, with a single blow.
In the Hades Arc, we were able to see that the Gold Saints are much stronger than the Bronze Saints. That is why Kanon defeated Lycaon, who had defeated Shiryu and Hyoga together. He also defeated Lune with a single finger, even though Lune had given Seiya trouble, and he fought Radamanthys on equal footing, who is described as more powerful than the four Bronze Saints combined. In addition, we also saw how Shaka knocked out a full-power Seiya with a single finger.
Ikki was completely overpowered by Shijima, as he could do nothing against any of his techniques, and Shijima nearly destroyed his mind and brain with a single attack. However, Shijima himself admitted that he was inferior to Shaka, whom he describes as the most powerful Virgo Saint to have ever existed in Athena’s army, a true man close to the gods. Shaka is not only more powerful than Shijima, but also more powerful than any other Virgo Saint.
It is true that Gemini is the strongest Gold Saint, but Shaka and the Virgo Saints have an extra trick to temporarily increase their power beyond their limits by accumulating their cosmos through the deprivation of a sense and releasing it when necessary. For example, Shaka’s normal power is not very different from Aiolia’s power, as both were evenly matched in combat. However, when he releases the cosmos he has accumulated, his power increases, and in this way he even managed to surpass Saga and nearly defeat him with the Tenbu Horin, or Shijima and Shaka can use techniques such as Ungyo and Angyo that surpass the power of a Gold Saint.
It is correct that Shaka could not match Eris or Ares/Saga in power. However, the fact that he was able to briefly stop a comet amplified by the cosmos of three gods, as well as injure Ares/Saga, who was amplified by the cosmos he stole from Athena and Eris, confirms Athena’s words that Shaka could injure Hades/Shun, although he would probably not be able to defeat him, since, as Athena herself indicates, that would be difficult to achieve. As for the idea that Shaka is stronger in the Hades Arc, that is questionable, since there is nothing that indicates Shaka was stronger in that arc. Perhaps the only thing that could suggest this is the 8th Sense, but there are official sources that suggest Shaka could already reach that sense before that arc.
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Saint Nicholas (Santa) when?
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So Kaasa is stated to be “the strongest opponent we have ever faced” in both the manga and anime by Shun. So in the manga, this would place Kaasa above the likes of Aldy, Shaka, and Aphrodite. Even more, he perfectly replicated Camus’s power, who is stated in the hades arc to be a top three gold saint when he was alive.
And Poseidon arc Ikki stomped kaasa quite easily, with Kaasa only being able to kill Ikki if ikki intentionally lets his guard down for Esmeralda. Of course, Kanon who is = to Saga when enraged stomps ikki without issue. But then in time Oddysey, Ikki gets much more powerful, by “tenfold” by the Hades arc. So Hades Ikki pre 8th sense is over 10x stronger then Poseidon arc Ikki, who stomps a opponent at least as strong as shaka, and is stronger then Sanctuary arc Ikki since his cloth was upgraded, who is stated to have had a 7th sense superior to Shaka’s(debatable if it stays that way in that arc tho). And then Ikki reaches the 8th sense, requiring him to burn his Cosmo to its fullest, which would obviously make him stronger then before.
But as for Shaka himself, in the Poseidon arc, it is said by Milo that he and Aiolia alone would easily beat the mariners revealed till then, which I believe only excludes Kanon. The way milo says it implies to me that it was an arbitrary choice to choose aiolia, and so Poseidon arc Shaka should be strong enough to match Camus level opponents. So Shaka, and everyone else has also gotten stronger.
Furthermore, when Kanon senses Aiolos, he is actually intimidated, and mentions something along the likes of “a real gold saints” power, indicating at present, gold saints in general are still superior to the bronzes, despite Shiryu, Hyoga, and Ikki being as powerful as the strongest Sanctuary arc golds. This is backed by the way Seiya talks about golds in the Baian fight. And yeah Shaka has had the 8th sense for a while.
As for aiacos, the taizen states he is not only the strongest of the the judges(not of the specters tho), but that yes, he literally would have one shot Kanon. Also he’s the fastest. And Ikki surpasses Aiacos in every way. And then Semi possessed Shun says Ikki cannot scratch him, and demonstrates it too. So a fully possessed Shun would be even stronger.
Oh and the strongest 2 specters btw get one shot by Hyoga and shiryu in one panel each. Idk how.
And Poseidon arc Ikki stomped kaasa quite easily, with Kaasa only being able to kill Ikki if ikki intentionally lets his guard down for Esmeralda. Of course, Kanon who is = to Saga when enraged stomps ikki without issue. But then in time Oddysey, Ikki gets much more powerful, by “tenfold” by the Hades arc. So Hades Ikki pre 8th sense is over 10x stronger then Poseidon arc Ikki, who stomps a opponent at least as strong as shaka, and is stronger then Sanctuary arc Ikki since his cloth was upgraded, who is stated to have had a 7th sense superior to Shaka’s(debatable if it stays that way in that arc tho). And then Ikki reaches the 8th sense, requiring him to burn his Cosmo to its fullest, which would obviously make him stronger then before.
But as for Shaka himself, in the Poseidon arc, it is said by Milo that he and Aiolia alone would easily beat the mariners revealed till then, which I believe only excludes Kanon. The way milo says it implies to me that it was an arbitrary choice to choose aiolia, and so Poseidon arc Shaka should be strong enough to match Camus level opponents. So Shaka, and everyone else has also gotten stronger.
Furthermore, when Kanon senses Aiolos, he is actually intimidated, and mentions something along the likes of “a real gold saints” power, indicating at present, gold saints in general are still superior to the bronzes, despite Shiryu, Hyoga, and Ikki being as powerful as the strongest Sanctuary arc golds. This is backed by the way Seiya talks about golds in the Baian fight. And yeah Shaka has had the 8th sense for a while.
As for aiacos, the taizen states he is not only the strongest of the the judges(not of the specters tho), but that yes, he literally would have one shot Kanon. Also he’s the fastest. And Ikki surpasses Aiacos in every way. And then Semi possessed Shun says Ikki cannot scratch him, and demonstrates it too. So a fully possessed Shun would be even stronger.
Oh and the strongest 2 specters btw get one shot by Hyoga and shiryu in one panel each. Idk how.
this is a legend from when Seiya was training, so the Gold Saints were younger and weaker back then, and also excludes Saga.
Tenbu Horin’s sensory deprivation and paralyzation is of course good enough to beat Saga, but it doesn’t make him stronger in a standard sense.
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Kurumada altered that dialogue of Shun in the Final Edition, and the new dialogue only indicates that Kasa was powerful, but not the strongest opponent Shun had faced.
Shun: Th–the enemy is right behind me… and what is this reaction from my chains…? (て･･･敵がすぐ後ろにいる、しかもこの鎖の反応はどうだ･･･ )
Shun: This is an incredibly powerful enemy. (これはとてつもなく強大な敵だ)
This makes sense considering that Shun had already surpassed Kasa without reaching the level of a Gold Saint. That is why his armor did not shine gold at any point and, therefore, he was able to overcome Kasa using only his base power as a Bronze Saint stronger than average.
This also makes sense with the dialogue in which Milo states that he and Aiolia could defeat Poseidon’s entire army without any trouble, as well as the dialogue in which Kanon indicates that the cosmos of the Sagittarius Cloth was on a different level from that of the Bronze Saints, who had already defeated most of Poseidon’s army by that point. Therefore, none of the Mariners were on Shaka’s level.
I do not recall it ever being mentioned that Ikki’s cosmos received such a massive increase, especially since even in Next Dimension, which takes place after the Hades Arc, we can see that Ikki struggles when fighting Judges or Gold Saints, as Suikyo, Vermeer, Cain, Abel, Kaiser, and Shijima nearly killed him. Even when Ikki already had knowledge of his opponents’ techniques, we can still see that he still has trouble stopping them and, at best, was only able to mitigate the damage in order to avoid receiving a fatal blow.
Ikki was only able to surpass Shaka by sacrificing his life and using a suicidal move against him, increasing his cosmos through the loss of his six senses. This is not something that happens in every battle, since at that moment Ikki was sacrificing everything in an attempt to defeat Shaka. Even so, we can see that Ikki’s attack was unable to even scratch Shaka, who could have returned without any problems from the other dimension where he ended up after the explosion. In general, Shaka was always portrayed as more powerful than Ikki or the Bronze Saints in every aspect.
Additionally, we must consider that during the Sanctuary battle, the Bronze Saints were being guided by Nike toward victory; basically, she was enabling them to prevail in battles that would otherwise have been impossible for them. This is something Saga himself mentions to Seiya, stating that the reason they were able to defeat their opponents and triumph in impossible battles was thanks to Nike.
The Gold Saints must be stronger after the Sanctuary Arc, but this is mainly because they now obtain the true power of their armors, since, as mentioned in Next Dimension, the Cloths grant more power to those who fight for justice and Athena. The more a Saint’s cosmos of justice rises, the more power the armor bestows upon them. However, this also indicates that the Bronze Saints actually had an extra advantage that the Silver Saints and Gold Saints did not have during the Sanctuary Arc, since only the Bronze Saints were fighting for justice and for Athena.
This is something that is likely supported in Saint Mariya, where we can see how the power of Misty and his Cloth, now that he was fighting to help Mariya and for Athena, created a barrier capable of blocking the attacks of an Alraune-level Specter, who had the power to kill Shiryu in the Hades Arc. In addition, it also granted Mariya enough power to defeat the Specter.
The most up-to-date guides, such as the description on the official website, no longer mention that detail, so the idea that he could kill Kanon is ambiguous and seems to be nothing more than the character’s ego, believing himself to be more powerful than he actually is. This is no different from Orphee believing that he could kill Hades with his technique. If we look at the manga, Aiakos’s attack did not leave even a scratch on Kanon and did not damage his armor in any way; therefore, it is clear that he could not defeat him with a single attack.
This is also no different from Chagall claiming that his Greatest Caution would kill Tenma while he was wearing the Sagittarius Cloth and stop the Goddess’s Arrow, but as we saw in that scene, Chagall was overpowered by the arrow’s power and erased by it. Once again, these kinds of dialogues, in which characters overestimate their own power, will always be ambiguous.
The strongest of the three Judges is Wyvern, who managed to defeat Orphee (who was stronger than the Gold Saints) and was described as more powerful than the four Bronze Saints combined, and the franchise itself even states that Wyvern is the strongest of the Three Judges. Shiori herself mentions that Wyvern was the strongest of the Specters, and Saito and Ueda also state that Wyvern is the strongest among the Specters. In Next Dimension, Kurumada literally had to use the divine arrow to defeat him, since even Tenma himself, who had managed to strike faster than the speed of light and directly hit Odysseus (who was actually using the power of Asclepius at that moment), and had defeated a Papillon-level Specter, was easily overpowered by Wyvern with a single finger.
However, Kanon managed to withstand an attack from Wyvern. Therefore, this confirms that Aiacos’s attack was never a problem for him, since if he could endure an attack from someone powerful enough to mortally wound Orphee with a single blow, it means that an attack from Aiacos was not an issue for him, and that Aiacos simply has an overly inflated ego.
Orphee is younger than the Gold Saints, and even during those years he was described as being stronger than them. I do not see how this would exclude Saga, because even though he was absent from the Sanctuary, they were well aware of Saga’s power. Therefore, as stated in the manga, Orphee was stronger than all of them.
The Tenbu Horin works through Shaka’s cosmos, and those who surpass his cosmos can overcome that technique. That is why techniques such as the Athena Exclamation or Ikki’s suicidal explosion were able to break through the Tenbu Horin. If Saga could not free himself from that technique, it was because Shaka’s cosmos was superior to his.
Therefore, the statement that Saga is the strongest of the Gold Saints is correct. However, Shaka, or the Virgo Saints in general, possess an extra ability that allows them to raise their cosmos beyond its limits. By depriving themselves of a sense, they can accumulate their cosmos and release it at the right moment, allowing them to surpass their limits as Gold Saints and reach a cosmos close to that of the gods.
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kaasa would still be Camus level even without shuns statement
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Being fair, in Next Dimension, it's stated repeatedly the Bronze Boys are holding back
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I even doubt that, considering that Shun, without reaching the golden level, could easily surpass Kasa and almost killed him if he hadn’t stopped his attack because of his very weak personality.
Yes, but it is also mentioned that several of the Gold Saints were holding back, since they didn’t truly want to kill the Bronze Saints and were simply trying to prevent them from advancing or presenting them with a challenge. For example, Ikki clearly states that Kaiser held back when he launched the Lightning Bolt, and it’s also mentioned that Kaiser couldn’t use his full power because he was suffering from health problems due to his lion heart. That’s why he didn’t attack with all his strength (he almost died when he unleashed his full power against Odysseus) and why he had sent Blondie to find the medicinal plant to recover. Therefore, Kaiser wasn’t using his full power and was holding back, and even so, Ikki could only stop his attacks by using his best technique at maximum strength.
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Just because they don’t mention it, doesn’t mean at all it’s been retconned. Respectfully, that makes zero sense. If official info is saying he can do x, he says he can do x, and his ally agrees with him, it becomes very clear that it’s true. Unless you can provide guides that contradict it, I cannot agree that it is ambiguous.
I have to disagree with this as well. Hyoga takes an Aurora Execution to the face without the 7th sense, and takes that attack and its power as direct evidence of Kaasa actually being Camus. So the power used was identical.
Furthermore, Isaak’s Cosmo is also confused for Camus’s, indicating he’s also at that level. Further furthermore, Taizen says Isaak rivaled Hyoga’s Absoulte Zero, indicating he was close to that level, but not quite, which is also where Camus was at(until that got retconned by TO, but the intention is clear). So two Mariners are strongly shown to be Camus Level, and Hyoga deals with that level of strength.
Furthermore, Shiryu, who as of the previous arc, has a Cosmo higher than Shura’s when using his 7th sense, could not penetrate the wall that was formed by Krishna’s Cosmo. As Shura is also one of the three strongest golds, this indicates strongly that in general, Mariners are of that level. And so Golden mode bronzes and Gold saints being able to deal with them strongly suggests they have improved in power. Which is also reiterated in TO, where the author mentions liking having to draw the different forms of the cloths as the characters get stronger.
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It’s in TO. Suikyo, and Cain are just straight up stronger than any non god he’s ever fought, so yeah. Shijima is having him to death, no conclusion can be directly drawn from just that. Ikki was also suppressed vs Kaiser, although so was Kaiser, so I feel it’s neither an anti feat or feat. I don’t particularly see any issue with Vermeer being that strong either.
true, but someone like Mu must have gotten stronger outside that, as in Sho, Deathmask was actually stronger then him, as Elda was able to destroy Mu’s Crystal wall, and she is explicitly inferior to Deathmask, but mu is the far stronger one in the hades arc.
ok but you understand literally none of these guys are Classic rhad.
That’s pre 8th sense, post 8th sense, they can definitely harm the likes of rhad and Minos, and explicitly do.
this is a non sequitar. Scaling wise, Orphee does not directly relate to aiacos in anyway.
this doesn’t make any sense, as Kanon obviously is pained by it even without being scratched. What you are suggesting is that it completely fails to damaged Kanon, which isn’t true.
Being stronger then say, a 17 year old aiolia has no bearing on whether he’s stronger then a20 year old aiolia, as Aiolia only has feats as a 20 year old. Saga isn’t included because he legit wasn’t believed to be alive when Seiya was training, and again, being stronger then a 15 year old saga doesn’t tell us anything useful. It’s impressive in a general sense, which is why Seiya mentions it, but not actually powerscaling relevant.
Hasty12345
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Never verse is dead lmao
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If it is not mentioned again in guides or in more up-to-date sources of information, it means that such information is ambiguous, since, as we know, Kurumada has updated the information of this franchise in recent years. That is why we have works such as the Final Edition, which updates dialogues. The 30th Anniversary Art Book corrects some details from the Hypermyth; one example of this is the fact that it is now described that the Holy War with the greatest number of Saints is no longer the Holy War against Ares, but the Holy War against Hades, with 79 Saints. This is because Kurumada has stripped Ares of all importance and now presents him as only a minor enemy of Athena, while the importance of Hades has been maximized and he is now the main and most important conflict for Athena, since Hades and his army are the only ones that rival Athena and her army in power.
Hyoga was confused by Kasa’s illusion, which alters the opponent’s senses and perception; because of this, he believed something that was not actually the case. He himself even states at the end that he was a fool for allowing himself to be deceived in that way. Therefore, this does not indicate that Kasa was equal in power to Camus, since Kasa does not even imitate techniques in the original manga; everything he does is merely an illusion meant to confuse the opponent.
However, as I said, in the manga it is clear that Kasa is far weaker than a Gold Saint, to the point that Shun, without reaching a golden level (his armor never shone gold during that fight), was able to overcome him easily and could have killed him. The only reason Shun did not kill him was his weak personality, as he refused to attack his brother (even though he knew it was an illusion).
More recent information no longer supports that idea, since the new information on the official website no longer describes Isaac in that way. In addition, it can be observed that Hyoga defeated Isaac without reaching his golden level, as at the moment he attacked Isaac his armor was not shining gold. This indicates that Isaac is considerably weaker than Hyoga at his maximum. The only scene that might suggest anything about Isaac’s power occurs in Destiny, where Isaac was able to stop a Galaxian Explosion, but Kanon himself states that he limited his power at that moment, and we can also see that Isaac ended up kneeling on the ground from the effort. Therefore, he is definitely not at the level of a Gold Saint.
Shiryu barely managed to surpass Shura, but this was only a momentary feat, when Shiryu raised his cosmos to its absolute limit. As I said, this is something that occurs in the Sanctuary Arc, where the Bronze Saints had the support of Nike, and thanks to her they achieved the impossible in battles they otherwise would not have been able to win, something Saga himself explains. Therefore, this is not Shiryu’s standard level. Moreover, even in the Hades arc, we can see that Excalibur Shiryu has trouble fighting Specters such as Queen, Gordon, and Sylphid; Gordon even destroys Shiryu’s Excalibur with his technique. In Saint Mariya, we can see how a Specter like Queen is defeated by Mariya using the power of Misty (Full Power).
The Mariners are not at the level of a Gold Saint—something that is even mentioned in the story—where Seiya clearly states that Baian did not have light-speed and was not at the level of a Gold Saint either. We can also see how most of them were overwhelmed when the Bronze Saints reached their golden level, and some of them were even defeated by the Bronze Saints without that golden level. In addition, Milo himself mentions that he and Aiolia could defeat all of them easily, and it is also stated that the cosmos of the Sagittarius Cloth is superior to that of the Bronze Saints. In Time Odyssey, it is shown that a girl with no proper use of cosmos or combat training, who was also gravely injured, managed to defeat Kraken with a single strike from the Andromeda Chain.
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He’s a fool because Camus is literally dead. He KILLED him. He just loved him so much he was willing to believe he was alive. It’s in arguable he took an aurora execution to the face, and that Issac was directly compared by his power and cold level to Camus by Hoga. The taizen not only says Isaac rivals absolute zero, but that his technique is actually superior to Hyogas.
Of course. The only time Isaac rivals Hyoga is earlier, suggesting he’s at that level of AZ without his full power. And, your argument is quite flawed. “A bronze character doesn’t use their golden armor to beat a mariner” > “The mariner isn’t gold Saint level” relies on the assumption that the bronze saints are not golden level already without their golden armors, and ignores the further context I’ve described.
Shiryu cosmo was also at its peak vs Krishna.
They still do.
literally every human back then had the 7th sense.
Being weaker than a holding back Saga/Kanon does not disqualify someone from being gold level. They are the most extreme end of power, and so literally everybody is weaker then them at that point.
Oh also, taizen says Baian is actually just gold level stronger up, and lost because Seiya had experience needed to break through. And that Kaasa’s strength is formidable, and nowhere does it say the attacks he makes while disguised are illusory, as he literally could have killed Ikki as Esmeralda with an “illusory knife”
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The problem is you have at no point, actually presented any contradictions, assuming a lack of repetition to be a rejection of previous facts.
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Could u link that?
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Suikyo was surpassed by several Gold Saints along his path through the Sanctuary; the only one against whom he was shown to be superior was Shion, who is described as a novice Gold Saint and not on the same level as the others. Shijima, who is weaker than Shaka, managed to overcome Ikki with relative ease, as it is made clear that he could have killed him very easily, and Ikki was unable to counter his techniques in any way. Ikki himself also states that he took a great amount of damage from Kaiser’s Lightning Bolt, even though Kaiser was restraining his strength. Moreover, although Ikki already knew the technique, he was still incapable of stopping it. Therefore, even with the advantage that a move does not work twice against a Saint, he was unable to counter Kaiser’s attack.
In Sho, Deathmask was amplified after becoming a Dryad; even when he used his full power in his fight against Mu, it is possible to observe that his armor evolved and took on a form with some details reminiscent of Cancer’s God Cloth. As for Erda with the Seventh Sense, she was only weaker than that version of Deathmask, who, as I mentioned, was stronger than before.
Wynver’s power is always the same, unless the story indicates that he obtained something to increase it, such as the blood of a god or something similar. As has always been mentioned, the Evil Stars take possession of their hosts and grant them the knowledge and power to fight; Specters do not train to obtain their powers, they simply receive their power from the armor they wear.
In the franchise, Wynver is always presented as the most powerful of the three Judges. For example, in Dark Wing, Hades mentions that Wynver is his most powerful Specter, even before witnessing Shoichiro’s power, which indicates that Wynver’s normal power already places him above all other Specters. Likewise, in The Lost Canvas, Shiori herself describes Wynver as the strongest Specter, and within the story Sylphid also states that Wynver was the strongest of them all, which is why he admired him.
In Next Dimension, Kurumada literally used the goddess’s arrow to defeat Wynver, since, as shown, Wynver was so powerful that he surpassed Tenma (Full Power) with a single finger. Tenma himself, upon witnessing the power Wynver released with just one finger, states that Chagall was on a completely different level from a Specter like Papillon. Literally, Wynver’s finger is more powerful than a Specter on Mu’s level.
The Bronze Saints only achieved the Eighth Sense for a brief moment, something Dohko himself mentions. Moreover, even after awakening the Eighth Sense, Seiya was not capable of seriously injuring Radamanthys with his techniques; even after three Ryūsei Kens, he was unable to wound him severely, to the point that Seiya himself states that Radamanthys seemed invincible. In fact, Radamanthys himself suggests that only Orphee’s attack had actually injured him.
Therefore, the Bronze Saints were not on Radamanthys’s level in any way, to the extent that their attacks, even after achieving the Eighth Sense, were incapable of causing him any significant damage.
It works for this example, since Orpheus was mortally wounded by Radamanthys, while Kanon withstood his most powerful attack. Therefore, the claim that Aiacos could defeat or kill Kanon with a single attack is ambiguous and is simply a line spoken by a character with a large ego, who overestimates his own power.
Showing pain does not mean that he received serious or relevant damage from the impact. Mu also shows pain after being struck by Giganto, but this does not mean that Giganto is stronger than him, or that Giganto could have killed him with that blow. At no point do we see Aiacos having the power to damage or pierce Kanon’s armor, or to inflict any mortal wound on him. Moreover, as I said, Kanon had previously withstood an attack from Wynver, the strongest Judge, who had the power to mortally wound Orphee.
Orphee is younger than all the Gold Saints, so he was basically a child when they were adolescents, and even so he still surpassed them in power, being recognized as stronger than the Gold Saints. The Saints knew Saga, as he was a Saint respected by all; therefore, even after his disappearance, they were perfectly aware of his power, and despite that, Orphee was acknowledged as the strongest. Orphee is essentially the most powerful Saint in the entire Sanctuary, with the possible exception of Shaka when he releases his accumulated cosmos.
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As I said, it was only part of Kasa’s illusion, which deceived Hyoga into believing something that was never real. This is something Hyoga himself points out when he states that he was an idiot for falling for it; his perception and judgment were simply altered by the illusion. Moreover, Kasa does not even possess ice-based techniques, so everything that happened at that moment was nothing more than an illusion.
However, as I mentioned, the manga shows the opposite when we see Hyoga easily surpass Isaac once he decides to fight seriously. Furthermore, he even defeats and kills him without reaching his golden level, and therefore without reaching absolute zero, since his armor was not shining gold at the moment of the attack. As is described and shown in the manga, the armor shines gold when they reach the level of a Gold Saint; therefore, if the armor was not shining, they had not reached that level.
As for the guides, as I said, the most up-to-date ones no longer include that information. For example, the description of Isaac’s attack on the official website never mentions that it can reach absolute zero, unlike techniques such as Aurora Execution or Freezing Coffin. Kurumada updates the information through new versions of the manga and guides, more up-to-date official guides, which is why the more recent the information is, the more reliable it is.
Hyoga needs to raise his cosmos to the maximum in order to reach absolute zero, since his attacks do not reach that temperature without his cosmos at its peak. That is why, in his fight against Mystoria, he had to prove that he could reach absolute zero, because all the attacks he launched without raising his cosmos to its maximum limit did not possess absolute zero. We even saw Mystoria easily stop his Diamond Dust, something Isaac was unable to do.
Not at the level he reached against Shura, where he went beyond his limits in an attempt to match him. In addition, he had the support of Nike, something Saga himself mentions as the key element that allowed them to prevail in otherwise impossible battles. As I said, even Excalibur Shiryu, a Shiryu more powerful than the one who fought Krishna, had trouble fighting Queen, Gordon, and Sylphid. The latter even destroyed his Excalibur with a single strike from his technique, and the former nearly killed him.
All humans possess the Eight Senses, perhaps Ten according to Episode G Requiem, but that does not mean that everyone can awaken or use them. In this case, Phebee was a maiden of Athena who was not even trained to fight, was not wearing a Cloth at the time, which is a key element in a Saint’s power, and was gravely injured, and even so she managed to kill him. This confirms that the Mariners can be confronted by a Bronze or Silver Saint, something that is not so strange when we analyze the fact that some of the Mariners were surpassed by the Bronze Saints at their base level. In addition, even in Saint Mariya, we were able to see how Mariya, using Misty’s power, confronted Queen, a Specter more powerful than the majority of the Mariners.
Kanon limito su poder en ese momento, por lo tanto, no es solo mas debil que Saga y Kanon, sino que incluso son mas debiles que un Kanon limitando su poder y con una armadura mas debil como una Scale. Asi que esto indica la gran diferencia de poder que existe entre los Gold Saints y los Jueces del Inframundo (o un Specter fuerte) en comparacion con los Mariners.
In the manga, it is stated that he does not reach the speed of light and that he does not match the Gold Saints in any way, something Kurumada maintained in the Final Edition. In addition, the description on the official website once again mentions that he does not reach the speed of light, since in the description of his technique it is said that he performs movements close to the speed of light.
【ゴッドブレス】
光速に近い動きで気流を操り、その気流の息吹で敵を吹き飛ばす技
[God Breath]
A technique that manipulates air currents through movements approaching the speed of light, blasting the enemy away with the breath of those currents.
光速に近い動きで気流を操り、その気流の息吹で敵を吹き飛ばす技
[God Breath]
A technique that manipulates air currents through movements approaching the speed of light, blasting the enemy away with the breath of those currents.
His power is to create illusions that confuse the opponent’s senses; therefore, the attacks he performs are merely illusions. We do not know how Kasa would have killed Ikki once he lowered his guard due to the Emerald illusion; perhaps Kasa would have simply stabbed him with his hand, as he did with the other Bronze Saints.
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Examples?
Again, hax.
Both are holding back, you can’t glean info from that interaction.
Talking about base gold cloth dm.
Baseless claim. We know power can be variable because Cosmo is drawn out by willpower/the innate strength of the person. Furthermore there’s variable awakening levels. Just having the soul of the Wyvern specter won’t automatically give you the same strength because you also need to draw it out at the same level.
While true, this doesn’t consider that at the specific era, they may be drawing out different amounts of power.
its not particularly egregious for Rhad in LC to be the strongest based on the above reasoning.
I don’t disagree Chagall is the strongest nd specter, but I believe it doesn’t have any bearing on anybody else. Chagall is likely above Cain, because Tenma can exceed light speed while Cain cannot, but Cain is superior to saga and Kanon. Just off that alone, Chagall is stronger than Rhad. So being Wyvern in of itself doesn’t make you the strongest.
Hyoga damaged Minos, and Shiryu burning his Cosmo at his maximum one shot a specter who is considered top 1-2 in terms of power and defensive ability.
This logic doesn’t follow on it’s own. It establishes that Orphee < Rhad <= Kanon.
But Aiacos is stated by himself, Minos, and the taizen to be even more powerful, and your counterclaim is that future material doesn’t also say it, which is not a negation in anyway. Especially as you mention that future material could and does negate previous statements on occasion, and yet hasn’t in this case.
I never claimed that Kanon being harmed means he would have died. He would have died because that’s just what Saint Seiya says would have happened. Him being harmed is a counter to your claim that he failed to scratch Kanon.
all of this is true. Indeed, he was said to be stronger then the golds. But every character involved has gotten stronger, and so we don’t know if the statement holds true still. It’s been years, the golds have been training, and we don’t know if Orphee did, or if it was more or less efficient. Just because for example, Vegeta was stronger than Goku as children, doesn’t mean that he’s necessarily stronger as adults.
The issue is that Kaasa’s ability is to read feelings and then transform his body and voice. He can’t alter Hyogas perception directly. It’s far more idiotic to be swayed by your feelings for your master, blinding you to the fact he is dead, then to literally have your senses and perceptions directly twisted.
Yeah, so then Hyoga is simply scaling from his held back self being at that level.
He doesn’t reach AZ, he simply rivals it, he’s CLOSE to it.
When Mystoria defeats him, he comments both that Hyoga reaches AZ, and that Hyoga would have won if he wasn’t holding back. So Hyoga teaches AZ while holding back.
Why would he suddenly not have the support of Nike this time. In addition, Excalibur Shiryu can only beat Krishna by targeting specific weak points.
So what, they have nothing to do with prior characters.
You misunderstand. Everybody in the modern world has those sense, but Dohko is saying that everybody in the ancient world can use the 7th sense. Think about it. Why would he bother mentioning that all age of myth humans had the 7th sense, if all humans EVER also had it, unless he was talking about actually using it.
The strength does not come directly from misty, as then we would argue Misty is stronger then Seiya is, and that Aphrodite is superior to Seiya as well.
the taizen also states he doesn’t reach light speed movements. All it says it that he has a gold saints power. He’s slightly slower and just as strong.
he specifically is transforming only himself. Yes he likely would have used his hands, but the damage itself is real.
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Overall yeah, Wyvern is the strongest in most cases, just not the classic. Kanon after understanding the greatest caution was able to tank it quite easily, (but that might not be properly a power feat.), and heavily damage Rhad in return. And then Aicos and Minos say aiacos would have one shot him. Rhad doesn’t even disagree, he just wants to fight him one on one.
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Ox surpassed him and inflicted heavy damage with a simple movement of his hand, even though Ox did not want to kill him at first, which is why he did not use Great Horn. Cain also overwhelmed him with simple physical blows, and Abel likewise surpassed him and used Genrōmaōken on him. Deathtoll also overpowered him and struck him using only physical attacks, nearly sending him back to the Underworld. Kaiser or Goldie left him unconscious. Shijima nearly killed him, if Athena had not intervened to save him.
The Virgo Saint’s entire arsenal is a combination of hax and raw power; however, this does not change the fact that he overwhelmed Ikki very easily, and Ikki, even after having seen his techniques, was unable to counter them.
Ikki limited himself to not attacking, but that does not mean that he was not using his cosmos to defend himself. Even with his cosmos at maximum and prior knowledge of the technique, he was unable to stop Kaiser’s Lightning Bolt, even though Kaiser was restraining his strength. Therefore, Kaiser is so far superior to Ikki that, even when Ikki knew the technique, he could not stop it, and the only thing he could do was mitigate the damage to avoid receiving a fatal blow.
Yes, but as I explained, the example does not work, since Deathmask in Sho is stronger than normal Deathmask. Therefore, the fact that this version of Deathmask could match or surpass Mu does not mean that normal Deathmask can do the same.
The Specters are souls that are reincarnated, which is why they always possess the same potential and are chosen by the Evil Stars. Afterward, the Surplices grant them their power and the knowledge to fight, thus bringing back the mythological Specter. The only thing that can affect this is an improper awakening. However, the awakening is connected to Hades himself, so unless something happens that limits their power or prevents their resurrection, the Specters’ awakening will always be the same.
In this case, Radamanthys in the original manga was fully awakened, which is why he was called Radamanthys, since the complete spirit of Wyvern had awakened within him. In contrast, Shoichiro and Chagall, due to the problems Hades faces in their story, were unable to awaken completely and still retained their original names. Even in Next Dimension, Chagall had only recently awakened as a Specter and was then sent to fight Tenma, which is why he had not yet acquired the name Radamanthys.
Hyoga, even with his best technique, could not kill Minos, so at best this only places him at the level of a Gold Saint when he raises his cosmos to the maximum, but not more powerful than them. I do not recall Shiryu defeating a Specter of such a high level; as far as I remember, the strongest Specters he defeated were Queen, Gordon, and Sylphid, and he did not actually defeat the latter, since Sylphid survived Shiryu’s attack and was only destroyed by the Hyperdimension.
No, it only demonstrates Kanon’s durability and how he is not so easy to kill, even though he is not as strong as Orphee.
However, what is shown in the franchise indicates that Wynver is the strongest, and Kanon withstood his attack, which means that the claim that Aiakos could kill him is just an ambiguous statement from a character known for his great ego.
In the manga, we can clearly see that the attack did not cause him any damage; neither his body nor his armor show any harm, which makes that statement even more ambiguous, since there is nothing in the story that confirms it. As I said, this is no different from other similar statements, where characters claim they could kill stronger opponents. A good example that comes to mind is the Specter Rock, who believed that his technique, which consists of throwing rocks, could kill Kanon, Hyoga, and Shiryu if it had hit them directly.
Orphee was already stronger than them when he was a child, while they were already adolescents who had become Gold Saints, since he is younger than they are. In addition, we have never seen the Gold Saints training beyond the training they underwent to become Gold Saints. In contrast, Orphee even traveled to the Underworld; therefore, he had to awaken the Eighth Sense before any other Saint, and he managed to surpass the Underworld to reach Hades. Thus, Orphee has well-earned his title as someone more powerful than the Gold Saints, as is indicated and demonstrated in the story.
No, Kasa’s power is to read the mind and heart of his opponent, and through those thoughts he creates a perfect illusion, which allows him to hide his presence. In addition, the illusion can change both his voice and appearance, and he can even alter the surroundings; for example, when he transformed into Esmeralda, he created a scenario where both of them appeared to be on a beach. This way, he can alter the opponent’s perception, making them believe that their loved ones have appeared in front of them, and they will not notice the difference unless they realize that what is happening is impossible.
The problem is that Hyoga had not raised his cosmos to his golden level, which is reflected by the glow his armor acquires. Therefore, he was able to surpass him even without reaching his golden level.
Considering that Hyoga surpassed him without reaching his golden level, I don’t see how he could be close to Absolute Zero.
Yes, but that only happened when Hyoga raised his cosmos to the maximum, since previously his attacks did not reach absolute zero; only his final attack achieved that temperature. And as we saw, Mystoria was even able to easily stop Hyoga’s Diamond Dust at its base level, something that Isaac was not able to do. Hyoga could have defeated Mystoria with his Aurora Execution at Absolute Zero, but he did not need to reach that level to defeat Isaac, as we can see in the manga, where Hyoga defeated Isaac without reaching his golden level. Therefore, Isaac is far from the level of any Aquarius Saint or Hyoga.
Nike was not in Poseidon’s Sanctuary, since Athena did not bring her weapons with her to that battle, which is why the goddess was limited at that moment. This only indicates that the barrier was strong, but it does not mean that Shiryu reached Shura’s level at that time. In addition, Shiryu himself could have defeated Khrisna with a single Excalibur strike before he set up the barrier.
I also want to point out again that Excalibur Shiryu, wearing a more powerful armor, was nearly killed by a group of Specters such as Queen, Gordon, and Sylphid, and Gordon even surpassed and destroyed Shiryu’s Excalibur with a single strike of his technique. This demonstrates that any of those three Specters were above Khrisna in power.
No, it is only stated that there was an era in which all humans possessed the Seventh Sense, and therefore there was no distinction between gods and mortals, as the mortals were said to be as powerful as the gods. However, that is not the era in which the battle against Poseidon took place, where we can clearly see that humans did not possess that power. That is why the Dragon was presented as an unmatched warrior among Athena’s army, because even though he was a Bronze Saint, he was as strong as a Gold Saint.
So I’ll say it again: Phebee was just a maiden of Athena without proper training, not wearing a Cloth, and on the brink of death, so she was far from the level of a Gold Saint, yet she still managed to defeat the Kraken. The same can be said of Tyr, the Cygnus of that era, who was also not at the level of a Gold Saint, since to seal the Olympic Fire he had to concentrate his cosmos for seven days and sacrifice his life for it—something that, as mentioned in the story, Camus or Hyoga could have achieved (and even better, since they could have extinguished the flame permanently) without problems if they had had the Kemet dust.
It is the power of Misty, since Mariya is just a young girl without any training or combat skills, and she derives her power from the Cloth she wears. The Pegasus Cloth only grants her access to Seiya’s power as a Bronze Saint, but as we have seen, on some occasions it seems to give her more power than that. Therefore, it is likely that as the story progresses, she will be able to access even more of Seiya’s power.
It is the power of Misty, since Mariya is just a young girl without any training or combat skills, and she derives her power from the Cloth she wears. The Pegasus Cloth only grants her access to Seiya’s power as a Bronze Saint, but as we have seen, on some occasions it seems to give her more power than that. Therefore, it is likely that as the story progresses, she will be able to access even more of Seiya’s power.
Yes, but for the opponent’s perception, the damage feels different thanks to the illusion. For example, Ikki would have felt a stab from Esmeralda, even though Kasa was probably only piercing his body with his hand. This is because the illusion alters the five senses and confuses the brain’s perception.
As I explained, that cannot be the case due to the way the Specters obtain their powers. Kanon was only able to stop Radamanthys’ Greatest Caution because Radamanthys was injured and weakened by Orphee’s attacks, the same Orphee who easily overwhelmed and left Aiacos and Minos unconscious. Similarly, just because Rock claimed he could have killed Kanon, Shiryu, and Hyoga with his rock-throwing attack, that indicates nothing. Minos was only able to attack Kanon by taking advantage of him being on the ground; in a real fight, we never saw that happen. Moreover, considering how weak Griffon’s mind is, Kanon would probably have easily destroyed it with a mental attack or killed him with a Galaxian Explosion.
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