Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)

[Ryzen7900X]

Wouldn’t the normal assumption be that canonicity is mutual unless proved otherwise?

no? since when was that ever the standard? if that was our standard DBH would've been canon long ago due to referencing pretty much all DB material

 

[StekFence]

no? since when was that ever the standard? if that was our standard DBH would've been canon long ago due to referencing pretty much all DB material

Not really? Since characters from Super never interact with heroes. The super characters in heroes are pretty much just alternate versions. Even if they shared the same cosmology, super has no scaling to it

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Not really? Since characters from Super never interact with heroes. The super characters in heroes are pretty much just alternate versions. Even if they shared the same cosmology, super has no scaling to it

do characters from ND interact with anyone in Dark Wing?

 

[StekFence]

Athena does yes

 

[StekFence]

If one considers cc goku, the events that happen to him are different from the events occurring to super goku, so they aren’t the same. But this distinction doesn’t necessarily apply in this case

 

[StekFence]

Also, pretty sure the number of timeline in super is different from the number in heroes. Which is not the case in nd to dw, as nd never mentions how many timelines there are.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Athena does yes

when?

 

[StekFence]

When she talks to Shoichiro and Sojiro after their fight

 

[Ryzen7900X]

When she talks to Shoichiro and Sojiro after their fight

what ND chapter was that exactly? I cant remember

 

[StekFence]

You never said it had to be a nd chapter

 

[StekFence]

Let’s just agree to disagree until someone makes a crt

 

[Hasty12345]

Note that there is a God of time for each series, in itself it is somewhat contradictory.

That’s not a contradiction.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Let’s just agree to disagree until someone makes a crt

Good idea

 

[Ryzen7900X]

You never said it had to be a nd chapter

....why would DW referencing ND make it canon to ND? see what I mean? That's literally like saying that because DBH characters interact with "DBS" characters, that it is now canon to DBS

 

[Hasty12345]

....why would DW referencing ND make it canon to ND? see what I mean? That's literally like saying that because DBH characters interact with "DBS" characters, that it is now canon to DBS

obvious problem with that analogy is that DBH doesn't interact with DBS characters. The case is argued against you is that DW does interact with Classic, not wish.com Classic - which is how DBH works.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

obvious problem with that analogy is that DBH doesn't interact with DBS characters. The case is argued against you is that DW does interact with Classic, not wish.com Classic - which is how DBH works.

can you prove it wasnt DBS? as far as anime continuity goes it pretty much picked back up right where DBS ended and IIRC the toei website even called it a continuation of DBS (obviously bullshit but you get what i mean). the idea that any spin-off can just canonize itself by referencing a canon works is asinine and baseless. most spin-offs are or have to reference the canon in some way or they would be largely irrelevant. same thing with DBH interacting with GT stuff as well

 

[Hasty12345]

can you prove it wasnt DBS? as far as anime continuity goes it pretty much picked back up right where DBS ended and IIRC the toei website even called it a continuation of DBS (obviously bullshit but you get what i mean). the idea that any spin-off can just canonize itself by referencing a canon works is asinine and baseless. most spin-offs are or have to reference the canon in some way or they would be largely irrelevant. same thing with DBH interacting with GT stuff as well

I can prove it wasn't DBS (Broly movie, DBSH obviously contradicts DBH), but that's not my burden.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

I can prove it wasn't DBS (Broly movie, DBSH obviously contradicts DBH), but that's not my burden.

yeah but that wasnt the case in 2018-2022 (the broly movie doesnt contradict it, DBH references a few scenes from the 2018 movie in many trailers and IIRC CC goku actually makes a distinction between the old Broly and the new one in the manga), so was DBH canon back then? i'm giving this analogy to show you how bad of a standard that is for declaring something canon and hoping you see it if I extend this logic to other verses

not every work licensed under the same IP has to be canon, if it was then GT and DBH would've been canon long ago

 

[Hasty12345]

yeah but that wasnt the case in 2018-2022 (the broly movie doesnt contradict it, DBH references a few scenes from the 2018 movie in many trailers and IIRC CC goku actually makes a distinction between the old Broly and the new one in the manga), so was DBH canon back then? i'm giving this analogy to show you how bad of a standard that is for declaring something canon and hoping you see it if I extend this logic to other verses

"standards of canon" vary from work to work, publisher to publisher, and even culture to culture. I don't think using analogies from one work applies to any other work when discussing canon.

Dragon Ball canon being as whimsical as DBS Goku's characterisation has no bearing on any other verse.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

"standards of canon" vary from work to work, publisher to publisher, and even culture to culture. I don't think using analogies from one work applies to any other work when discussing canon.

sure but i'm more than 99% that one of the most common standard is work by the original author himself.

Dragon Ball canon being as whimsical as DBS Goku's characterisation has no bearing on any other verse.

never said it does. all i stated was that there is literally no reason this should be the case and, if you insist it should be, there's no reason it shouldn't apply to other works without some glaring contradiction (which as i said didnt really exist). if you disagree with that (which i hope you do) then why do you not see how absurd it is? you still haven't told me why it can't apply to DBH and DBS or DBH and GT as well

 

[Hasty12345]

Again, I don't think you can just "apply this standard to other works", I JUST said canon standards are specific to their own franchises.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Again, I don't think you can just "apply this standard to other works", I JUST said canon standards are specific to their own franchises.

and I'm asking you to substantiate that with some reasoning. why can it not apply to the works i just mentioned? where exactly does the problem arise for us to not consider this option? not to say dragon ball doesnt receive preferential treatment but why does one series get to be so lax with canon while others have to be extremely strict when there is little to no difference (and in fact i'd argue, just as you did, that dragon ball itself tends to play extremely loose and whimsical with its canon)?

 

[Hasty12345]

and I'm asking you to substantiate that with some reasoning. why can it not apply to the works i just mentioned? where exactly does the problem arise for us to not consider this option? not to say dragon ball doesnt receive preferential treatment but why does one series get to be so lax with canon while others have to be extremely strict when there is little to no difference (and in fact i'd argue, just as you did, that dragon ball itself tends to play extremely loose and whimsical with its canon)?

Reasoning is applying a made-up standard of Canoncity that's founded in the western (american) comic interpretation and usage of the word to franchises from other cultures, publishers, authors, that treat canonicity differently isn't valid as a premise.

Hence it should be done case by case with what we know from author statements, publisher statements etc based on the work itself and not holding 1 particular notion of canonicity supreme.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Reasoning is applying a made-up standard of Canoncity that's founded in the western (american) comic interpretation and usage of the word to franchises from other cultures, publishers, authors, that treat canonicity differently isn't valid as a premise.

you won't believe just how much i agree with this statement. so then DW isn't canon to ND right??

Hence it should be done case by case with what we know from author statements, publisher statements etc based on the work itself and not holding 1 particular notion of canonicity supreme.

makes sense, but out of all his children Kurumada loves Okada the most and yet he pretty much contradicted his work and rendered it non-canon just now. clearly then the standard you're using to canonize Ueda's work (who Kuru doesnt love nearly as much as Okada) is extremely flawed especially given how Kuru also kept messing with Sho's canonicity

 

[Hasty12345]

I'm not canonising anything or making a statement on what is or is not canon. I was just pointing out a problem with the analogy you used to argue with Stek.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

i'm gonna make a patrick meme out of this I swear

 

[Ryzen7900X]

I'm not canonising anything or making a statement on what is or is not canon. I was just pointing out a problem with the analogy you used to argue with Stek.

well that didn't really work out did it? if you're having a hard time defending it i can't imagine Stek doing significantly better

 

[Hasty12345]

well that didn't really work out did it? if you're having a hard time defending it i can't imagine Stek doing significantly better

What are you even talking about? We derailed the conversation into a discussion about canon standards which you agree with my view on how canon should work, what didn't work out?

idc about DW's canon, I haven't even read it yet.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

What are you even talking about? We derailed the conversation into a discussion about canon standards which you agree with my view on how canon should work, what didn't work out?

no? we do not agree. I dont think you get my subtle hint there when i said I agreed with your comment about american comic book standards of canonicity so let me clarify. I said i agreed with not using those terrible standards, because american comic books writers usually tend to pretty much canonize everything, or almost everything, the most famous example being infinite frontier DC (the Superman that recently stomped Goku). these standards are terrible yet precisely what saint seiya currently follows, which i disagree with

idc about DW's canon, I haven't even read it yet.

well you should start caring because it's listed on the verse page

 

[Hasty12345]

no? we do not agree. I dont think you get my subtle hint there when i said I agreed with your comment about american comic book standards of canonicity so let me clarify. I said i agreed with not using those terrible standards, because american comic books writers usually tend to pretty much canonize everything, or almost everything, the most famous example being infinite frontier DC (the Superman that recently stomped Goku). these standards are terrible yet precisely what saint seiya currently follows, which i disagree with

That's not historically true and there are more comic book companies and franchise publishers outside of DC.

 

[Hasty12345]

well you should start caring because it's listed on the verse page

btw, don't tell me what I have to care about.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

That's not historically true and there are more comic book companies and franchise publishers outside of DC.

my dude one of the most famous memes about comic book power scalers is how they can pull a comic book panel from the 50s or 60s where the character they're arguing for is some omnipotent deity and instantly win the debate. yeah, that exists for a reason you know. Not saying that this is indicative of canonicity but that is objectively how major comic book franchises have worked. of course there's been contradictions and retcons, that's kinda impossible to avoid but the point stands.

saint seiya follows this terrible standards. and if you think its okay because the apparently terrible american standard of author's work being the supreme canon (how is that an american standard btw?) shouldnt apply to works from another country, why insist upon applying it to another similar work that tends to play even more loosely with canon?

 

[Ryzen7900X]

btw, don't tell me what I have to care about.

okay, dont care about it. Hasty blink twice if Kurumada is paying you to say that

 

[Hasty12345]

Where am I going around insisting on applying canon standards to all these verses?

my dude one of the most famous memes about comic book power scalers is how they can pull a comic book panel from the 50s or 60s where the character they're arguing for is some omnipotent deity and instantly win the debate. yeah, that exists for a reason you know. Not saying that this is indicative of canonicity but that is objectively how major comic book franchises have worked. of course there's been contradictions and retcons, that's kinda impossible to avoid but the point stands.

saint seiya follows this terrible standards. and if you think its okay because the apparently terrible american standard of author's work being the supreme canon (how is that an american standard btw?) shouldnt apply to works from another country, why insist upon applying it to another similar work that tends to play even more loosely with canon?

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Where am I going around insisting on applying canon standards to all these verses?

i mean you're a pretty hardcore canon separatist for dragon ball (and to some extent marvel as well but thats a different debate)

 

[Hasty12345]

i mean you're a pretty hardcore canon separatist for dragon ball (and to some extent marvel as well but thats a different debate)

My gosh it's almost like the moment ND had an inconsolable plot contradiction with GA I said GA wasn't canon.

Crazy how you can read 4 years of my comments and quote them haphazardly in random threads but forget what I said not a week ago

 

[Ryzen7900X]

My gosh it's almost like the moment ND had an inconsolable plot contradiction with GA I said GA wasn't canon.

Crazy how you can read 4 years of my comments and quote them haphazardly in random threads but forget what I said not a week ago

didn't i just quote exactly that though just a few minutes ago (with the example of how Kuru contradicted GA despite loving Okada more than any of his children)? in fact your comment was the reason i even bothered reading the last few chapters of ND to see if its true.

as for quoting random comments, that's just because its funny. I do it with many people so dont worry

 

[Hasty12345]

didn't i just quote exactly that though? in fact your comment was the reason i even bothered reading the last few chapters of ND to see if its true.

I don't get what the problem is then?

 

[Ryzen7900X]

I don't get what the problem is then?

the fact that you think that using the same standards that were once used to canonize GA are fine to use for DW too (even though that's not the only place where it gets violated). are you sure i'm the one forgetting the conversation?

 

[Hasty12345]

I'm not canonising anything or making a statement on what is or is not canon. I was just pointing out a problem with the analogy you used to argue with Stek.