Saint Seiya 2-C upgrades and 2-A Additions

[TheUnshakableOne]

I have counter and rubbtals not fir the cronus thing

But I'm waiting fir Matt, so i can do it all at once.

but I want to iterate that I'm in no rush

Question for Matt though. How do you feel about Saint Seiya Omega cross Canon scaling to Manga characters?

 

[Hasty12345]

The first translation is different in Japanese and Cronus only indicates that he will destroy Aiolia.
Cronus: 我が大鎌（デュナミスドレパノン）の神力翼（デュナミスプチリュクス)は全ての刻を狩リ取リ崩ス...
Cronus: お前も原子のチリに崩れてモドレ...

Spoiler

Translation: "The flames of my arms are an indicator: With each flame that is extinguished, a further shift in time occours. If you do not destroy me before they are all gone... Then everything both here and on Earth will collapse and end in ruin. And that not even Zeus will be able to avoid."

This part indicates that only the Earth (planet Earth) and the land where they were fighting (the castle of the Titans in the Tartarus) will be destroyed, it never indicates that the entire multiverse would be destroyed.

Translation: "What happened? Get up already. Or are you going to let the flames of time be extinguished? When this flame fades, this earth will disappear. Oh, look... One's already gone."

This only describes that the earth, the place where Aiolia and Cronus were fighting would begin to be destroyed, even at the end of the fight the floor in that place is destroyed and the two fall into the depths of the Tartarus. Nor does it indicate that Cronus was destroying the multiverse.

When this story was released, the concept of the multiverse was not even present in the franchise.

It is part of the multiverse and the Saint Seiya franchise, even the last chapter has a reference to the multiverse, because the version of Aiolos from this universe has a memory of the world of Seiya and company, or it is even possible that this Aiolos is the reincarnation of the Aiolos of the main universe.

Spoiler

The author of Saintia Sho probably made a reference at the beginning of Dark Wing, when Dysnomia mentions that a new universe was born in the multiverse.

Spoiler

P1
Shaka: Spend the time...?
Shaka: Are you renouncing to fight?
Dysnomia: Hehe...
Dysnomia: I've already put you in "quarantine"
Dysnomia: My job as a dryad is done, don't you agree?
Dysnomia: Fighting now is meaningless... I'm actually not interested
Dysnomia: Furthermore, I want to know more about you... Mister Shaka
Shaka: ..........
Shaka: What on earth
Shaka: Is this place?

P2 & P3
Dysnomia: Heh... You see...
Dysnomia: This is the place where all space-time from all Universes converge
Dysnomia: From the Myth Era to a far away future
Dysnomia: You can access it all from here, as you'd wish

Shaka was taken by Dysnomia's Reverse of Universe...?

Stage 81: Justice of the Saints/Justice for Saints

Dysnomia: A forbidden place where not even the gods eyes can reach
Dysnomia: ... Do you get it?
Dysnomia: If you look at any event or fate chosen by the stars
Dysnomia: They are just small fragments among millions of sparks
Dysnomia: Very, very tiny...

P4
Dysnomia: Oh, look...
Dysnomia: It seems a new universe
Dysnomia: Is being born...

Each universe has its own version of the gods, for example in Assassin we could even observe three different versions of Athena.
- Saori is the Athena of the main world / universe.
- Yoshino and Tomoe are an Athena from an unknown world who reincarnated as twins.
- Saori who was killed by Aiolos and was the Athena of that world (named as Lost World in the manga).

If you read the thread, you’d see I’m not of the opinion Cronus is 2-A.

and nothing you said proves canonicity for Dark Wing, vague references and reused characters doesn’t make a spin off canon. All works used in this thread are approved canon by Kurumada and/or appear on the official Saint Seiya timeline (there are blogs explaining this in the Wiki written by Matt).

you need a statement from Kurumada and/or the publisher to prove canonicity.

as for there being multiple hosts for Athena, that’s been explained IN THE THREAD. It would be very much appreciated if you read the arguments.

 

[Skullberserk]

If you read the thread, you’d see I’m not of the opinion Cronus is 2-A.

and nothing you said proves canonicity for Dark Wing, vague references and reused characters doesn’t make a spin off canon. All works used in this thread are approved canon by Kurumada and/or appear on the official Saint Seiya timeline (there are blogs explaining this in the Wiki written by Matt).

you need a statement from Kurumada and/or the publisher to prove canonicity.

as for there being multiple hosts for Athena, that’s been explained IN THE THREAD. It would be very much appreciated if you read the arguments.

The blog has to be updated with the information of the new works of Kurumada (Origin, Zero and Destiny) that change and contradict some elements of the other mangas of the franchise and the new version of the original manga (Final Edition) that Kurumada will update to make the story more coherent with his new works (Zero, Origin, Destiny and Next Dimension). The official timeline has not been updated in years, so it does not include the works of the franchise that were published in the last years: Zero, Origin, Destiny, Dark Wing, Golden Age and Requiem.

At the moment, the other mangas and derivatives are canon by the concept of the multiverse that was introduced in almost all the mangas of the franchise, but currently it is likely that they are different universes in that multiverse.

No, they are different versions of Athena in the multiverse and even in one universe we could see that one of these versions of Athena was killed.

Athena does not use hosts, she never used one in the story, because she reincarnates as a human, the goddess descends to Earth as a human, therefore that is the true body of the goddess (only transformed into a mortal), that is why her blood is divine even when she reincarnates as human and has the same appearance as the mythological Athena.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew_Schroeder @Ultima_Reality @Shadowbokunohero

Would you be willing to help us reach a conclusion here please?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Sorry been absent for a few days.

I still vehemently refuse the idea that there's only one god per universe. Not only does Lost Canvas and now Saintia Sho and Dark Wing directly contradict this, but I think people going "I'm as strong as Zeus" is hyperbole.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Skullberserk's new points btw.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I agree with Skullberserk's new points btw.

I'll be posting my counters and rebuttals later today (Im in the Chicago Timezone and its noon here)

But quick question; How do you feel about Saint Seiya Omega Cross Canon Scaling?

 

[Antvasima]

I trust Matthew's sense of judgement regarding Saint Seiya.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I have a question, because Cronus and Zeus are 2-A. What is the justification for this?

I read the profile and it says that Cronus threatens to destroy the multiverse, but that never happened in the manga.

Cronus only says that his power affects the time of planet Earth (altering the different epochs of the planet) and the area where he was fighting with Aiolia (the castle of the Titans in the Tartarus).

im not going to touch upon Cronos stuff currently. Overall my point is going to remain with Athena, and Hades scaling to Zeus

Even each universe in the multiverse of Saint Seiya has its own version of the gods, for each universe there is a Hades, Cronus, Zeus, etc, so destroying the multiverse was never an option for a god. The only god that is likely unique is the version of Chronus that appears in ND.

Cronus and Zeus are probably 2-C by powerscalling of Hades and other gods.

First, You can be 2-A without having 2-A Range but the 2-A Potency can be like the length of a sword

Next;

This is impossible. Allow me to explain...

2 identical beings cannot co-exist alongside each other in the same world. Both will desire to be unique and will not accept their duality. Saga's split personality suffered this fate. Ikki vs Aiolia was also this fate. Esermalda was reborn and suffered this fate.

This unique verse mechanic also extends to hierarchies, objects, and locations

This was all stated by pope Kanon

and gets reiterated again by Ikki and Seiya

Why is this mechanic important?

Yoshino (an Athena) existed in the same timeline as Kido Saori Athena for 16 years without any issue.
Chaos Athena of the Lost World met Yoshino Athena which is her twin, but the two of them had no issue. (there is 3 scans here) In fact, the Lost World wants her back in their own world.

In other words; They are all the same being. Therefore, They do not kill each other. They are all the SAME Athena.


Zeus mentions any universe, any dimension, any time. This is lost world zeus speaking to Aiolia who was brought from some world or the past..to the timeline Seiya is in. Secondly; Assassins Timeline Poseidon directly stated that Lost World Zeus was his Brother.


It was pope Kanon that approved the resurrections of the gold saints. We learn here that Kanon managed to broker a deal with Hades This then leads into Aiolos implying there is only 1 underworld with his statement of "I will conquer the underworld then one day." Why would Hades suddenly turn good anyways? When Hades had fought Athena for thousands of years for control over the earth before these events? Its because Lost world (other world) Ikki managed to do that Illusion demon fist (The stronger one) on Shun-Hades. It was at that moment, the first time, in the franchise that we ever seen a good Hades. Which then leads into this next part. The summon spell pope Kanon approved of was to target Camus which we then see him talking to Shun-Hades. Again this tells us there is only 1 Hades.

I must add that Dark Wing is about a "Good" Hades and the first time we ever seen that is in Assassins AFTER Hades had the Demon fist used on him by God Cloth Ikki.

Each universe has its own Underworld and each universe has its own version of Hades. The Underworld is not nexus to all realities, it is only the world of the dead, a world completely different from the time-space of the universe (it is not even affected by the distortion in time-space that is destroying the universe), but it is world created by Hades' version of that universe. Aiolos uses a portal (black nucleus) to connect his world (Lost World) with another world.

Your point is immediately debunked by all my other points stated upon on this thread. Only 1 Hades, Only 1 Underworld, Aiolos used that only Underworld to move to other realities, and the Underworld is stated to be connected to all realities (worlds) All the scans to prove that are here.

It was never the attack with the power of 12 Gold Saints, because it was only an attack with a fraction of the power of some Gold Saints (Taurus, Cancer, Pisces and Aries), Silver Saints and Bronze Saints.

Hakurei's attack only uses the souls of his former companions to strengthen his technique, but they are only souls with a fraction of the cosmos of the Saints, a group of souls that weren't even wearing his true armor.

Power scaling;

Ones Attack Potency in their Cosmo is proportional to their durability with their cloth.

God Cloth Seiya fights Thanatos. God cloth Seiya blocks, and tanks Terrible providence which was able to destroy the Libra Weapons.

God Cloth Seiya pegasus Meteror Fisted Hypnos and it appears to have did nothing despite Seiya being able to defeat Thanatos so easily, but all it did make Hypnos compliment seiya and make Hypnos tremble with cold sweat.

It is part of the multiverse and the Saint Seiya franchise, even the last chapter has a reference to the multiverse, because the version of Aiolos from this universe has a memory of the world of Seiya and company, or it is even possible that this Aiolos is the reincarnation of the Aiolos of the main universe.

The author of Saintia Sho probably made a reference at the beginning of Dark Wing, when Dysnomia mentions that a new universe was born in the multiverse.

This is unfounded assumption with no proof or backing. There is nothing supporting this hypothesis. even you yourself imply that this is assumption.

There is also many multiverses which is directly stated and the Japanese raw makes no sense unless you make the word multiverse plural.

Each universe has its own version of the gods, for example in Assassin we could even observe three different versions of Athena.
- Saori is the Athena from the world of the future who appears in Assassin.


- Yoshino and Tomoe are an Athena from an unknown world who reincarnated as twins.

- An Saori who was killed by Aiolos and was the Athena of that world.

Again this is literally impossible, and is debunked, by an in-verse mechanic setup by the Author and very elaborately explained to us.

Additionally, Athena is reincarnating her true body. So her splitting her "true body" apart into twins further supports my claim; that literally every Athena in the multiverse is the same Athena, they are all aspects of the same being. Hence why they don't kill each other when another enters into another world because they are the same person. It is a different host body every time but the Goddess possessing them is the same. Only 1 Athena but infinite host bodies.

Sorry been absent for a few days.

No harm done buddy. I know what its like to be busy. I work 12 hour shifts Monday through Friday and sometimes Saturdays. Covid has changed my work place.

I still vehemently refuse the idea that there's only one god per universe. Not only does Lost Canvas and now Saintia Sho and Dark Wing directly contradict this, but I think people going "I'm as strong as Zeus" is hyperbole.

How do you feel about Saint Seiya Omega Cross Canon Scaling to the manga?

Additionally; You still haven't discussed Athena's power being needed to destroy the soul, and body of Zeus in the Lost World. Which Zeus directly stated himself that Athena needed to Bless the Arrow and Bow.... This is 2-A Hax at the very least

Edit: Lost Canvas also doesn't disprove anything. Thanatos and Hypnos got little to no screen time, and it was Alone borrowing the power of a slumbering Hades up until the end of the manga.

 

[Skullberserk]

im not going to touch upon Cronos stuff currently. Overall my point is going to remain with Athena, and Hades scaling to Zeus

First, You can be 2-A without having 2-A Range but the 2-A Potency can be like the length of a sword

If they don't destroy or threaten to destroy a multiverse (with infinite universes) they cannot be 2-A. The gods (with the probable exception of Chronos because he incarnated all of space and time) in Saint Seiya have no feats to be considered as 2-A and the feats of the gods only indicate that they are 2-C.

This is impossible. Allow me to explain...

2 identical beings cannot co-exist alongside each other in the same world. Both will desire to be unique and will not accept their duality. Saga's split personality suffered this fate. Ikki vs Aiolia was also this fate. Esermalda was reborn and suffered this fate.

This unique verse mechanic also extends to hierarchies, objects, and locations

This was all stated by pope Kanon

and gets reiterated again by Ikki and Seiya

Why is this mechanic important?

Yoshino (an Athena) existed in the same timeline as Kido Saori Athena for 16 years without any issue.
Chaos Athena of the Lost World met Yoshino Athena which is her twin, but the two of them had no issue. (there is 3 scans here) In fact, the Lost World wants her back in their own world.

In other words; They are all the same being. Therefore, They do not kill each other. They are all the SAME Athena.

Dohko (Gold Saint of Libra from another world) did not turn into a demon and tried to destroy Shiryu (Gold Saint of Libra from that world) when they met.

Shion (Gold Saint of Aries from another world) and Kiki (Gold Saint of Aries from that world) lived together in the world for years and did not destroy each other. The problems with time only began to increase as the portal grew stronger and began to unite the two worlds (planets).

Yoshino only woke up as Athena at the end of the story and we don't know what happened to her, because she doesn't appear in Requiem.

Zeus mentions any universe, any dimension, any time. This is lost world zeus speaking to Aiolia who was brought from some world or the past..to the timeline Seiya is in. Secondly; Assassins Timeline Poseidon directly stated that Lost World Zeus was his Brother.

It was pope Kanon that approved the resurrections of the gold saints. We learn here that Kanon managed to broker a deal with Hades This then leads into Aiolos implying there is only 1 underworld with his statement of "I will conquer the underworld then one day." Why would Hades suddenly turn good anyways? When Hades had fought Athena for thousands of years for control over the earth before these events? Its because Lost world (other world) Ikki managed to do that Illusion demon fist (The stronger one) on Shun-Hades. It was at that moment, the first time, in the franchise that we ever seen a good Hades. Which then leads into this next part. The summon spell pope Kanon approved of was to target Camus which we then see him talking to Shun-Hades. Again this tells us there is only 1 Hades.

I must add that Dark Wing is about a "Good" Hades and the first time we ever seen that is in Assassins AFTER Hades had the Demon fist used on him by God Cloth Ikki.

The characters acquire the memory of their version of the other world by the proximity of the worlds through the portal (black core).
- Images

Aiolos also says that that version of Aiolia from another world is his brother and Shura from another world is his murderer, because he acquired the memory of Aiolos from that world (who was killed by Shura during Saga's rebellion). Even when that Aiolos has a different story and never died.

Spoiler

-----------------------------------------------

Poseidon also fought with Athena for years, but he helps the Saints in the Hades Arc and returns to help the Saints in the invasion of Aiolos. Hades only made a deal after Athena destroys his true body, because as Dohko explains, if they destroy the god's body, he would give up his plans.

Spoiler

Shun / Hades is a different version of Hades, because it is Hades's version of the world of Aiolos. Even his fight against the Saints is different and Ikki with his last attack manages to awaken the soul of his brother.
- Images
This Hades is a combination of the soul of Shun and Hades.
- Images

The soul of Hades from the world of the future or the universe where the story takes place, appears to stop the destruction of his Underworld by the Black Nucleus that united the worlds.
- Images

In the universe of Dark Wing, Hades has a different personality and made his peace with Athena, which is why the Saints and Specters have not fought in centuries.

They are different gods and souls, and each god has his own underworld in his universe.

Your point is immediately debunked by all my other points stated upon on this thread. Only 1 Hades, Only 1 Underworld, Aiolos used that only Underworld to move to other realities, and the Underworld is stated to be connected to all realities (worlds) All the scans to prove that are here.

Aiolos uses the Black Nucleus (the strange singularity that was created when he killed his Athena) to travel to other worlds.
- Images
The same singularity that united his world with the other world and thanks to the collision with the Crystal Wortex amplified its power and was even able to move the entire planet to that world / universe.
- Images
Dohko only refers to the super dimension (the strange dimensional space that separates the Underworld and Elysium) in that scene.

Athena only traveled to the past of his universe to steal the sword of Hades and change history to save Seiya.

Seiya's soul in the Yomotsu Hirakasa may be a consequence of the distortion in space and time that threatens the universe, or confirms that the Yomotsu is a different space and time from the rest of the universe, just like the Underworld (which is not it is even affected by the distortion of space and time that threatens to destroy the universe). But this does not indicate that it is the same Underworld in all worlds.

Each universe has its own Hades and Athena. In the Assassin story, the author showed three different versions of Athena and two different versions of Hades.

Additionally, Athena is reincarnating her true body. So her splitting her "true body" apart into twins further supports my claim; that literally every Athena in the multiverse is the same Athena, they are all aspects of the same being. Hence why they don't kill each other when another enters into another world because they are the same person. It is a different host body every time but the Goddess possessing them is the same. Only 1 Athena but infinite host bodies.

No, there is only one goddess Athena for each universe, the goddess does not use other bodies and reincarnates as a human, therefore, the goddess appears with her true body that reincarnates as a human. That Athena is described as a special case in the Multiverse and it also describes that Yoshino is more powerful and a better successor to Athena than her sister. Even each Athena has different memories, Saori does not have the memories of other Athenas (such as Sasha, TLC's 16th Century Athena, Avenir's World Athena, etc.) of the multiverse, because they are different gods.

This is also the same with the different versions of Hades in the multiverse, because they do not remember the events of each world, for example Hades OM has no memories of the events of the world of TLC, the world of the future of Avenir (where he won the holy war and killed Athena) and the world of Aiolos (where he ended up trapped in Shun's body).

The Underworlds are different, even the Underworld was destroyed in Dark Wing and probably also in the world of TLC because it is hinted that his future is similar to what was observed in the original manga (where the Underworld was destroyed with the death of Hades), but it still exists in the world of the future of Assassin and the world of Aiolos (a world with a very different story).

Even Sho and TLC have a very different version of Ares in their universes.

Spoiler

This is unfounded assumption with no proof or backing. There is nothing supporting this hypothesis. even you yourself imply that this is assumption.

There is also many multiverses which is directly stated and the Japanese raw makes no sense unless you make the word multiverse plural.

The author mentions in the manga (Saintia Sho #81 which was published on January 19, 2021) ) that a new universe was born in the multiverse, a chapter after the beginning of Dark Wing (which began its publication on December 19, 2020), the reference is clear.

The author only describes that it is a multiverse.
Dohko: 異なる[宇宙] [世界]多元宇宙はすぐ近くに存在する...

It's interesting, because Okada is the only japanese author who writes that word as multiverse (マルチバース).

Even the Spanish and Portuguese translations describe this as a multiverse.
- Images

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I will have rebuttals and counters tomorrow very late chicago time

 

[Antvasima]

Matthew and all staff members:

What do you think should be done here?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Skullberserk is right. Each universe has its own god with the only exceptions being the primordials.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so what revisions should be done in practice here based on that then?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I have a proposal.

I do have some low multiversal stuff here on this thread. but it appears this CRT was eaten up by the 2-A rating discussion.

So how about if i separated them as different CRTs?

Do the low multiversal (2-C) stuff in one CRT and at some time after that 2-C CRT discussion then do the 2-A discussion because i have a lot more to say about it and even found new evidence supporting it. (Edit: The whole Zeus sccaling chain i should rephrase that)

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know. It doesn't seem beyond the capacities of this thread to discuss both issues, if you try to organise the discussion a bit.

 

[Waka1979]

I mean the 2-C stuff seems to have been accepted already, making a separate thread for it is redundant.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I mean the 2-C stuff seems to have been accepted already, making a separate thread for it is redundant.

If it did.. I must not have seen the response about it... in that case im blind.. Oops lol

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I have not kept track of what has and has not been accepted by which members, but if somebody is willing to write a summary, that would be appreciated.

 

[Waka1979]

Myself, sanicspood, notorioussoda, starbrand_fan, bernkastelll, darkdragonmedeus, Tissg7redgrave, and Matt all agreed with the 2-C.

Hasty12345 and Everything12 were neutral.

CR_catinho disagreed but that was because he didn't understand the scaling, stefano4444 seems to have been in the same boat.

Alonik also disagreed but he also said he didn't want to be involved with saint seiya anymore.

Idk if that's enough to add it but that appears to be everyone's thoughts on the subject.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems sufficient to apply the 2-C revision to me.

What about 2-A?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

That seems sufficient to apply the 2-C revision to me.

What about 2-A?

2-A stuff requires further discussion according to Matt and Skull Bersker.

Other staff except maybe DDM seem

I am open to the idea of making 2 separate CRTs to discuss the 2-C stuff and separate that from the 2-A stuff. so this goes by more smoothly..

Edit: i start my work week again tomorrow (Monday). so there may large time gaps between my responses.

 

[Hasty12345]

Skullberserk is right. Each universe has its own god with the only exceptions being the primordials.

are you implying Gaia had infinite children?

or if you don't want to include Omega cosmology, manga only has a 2-B cosmology with no MWI, so are you implying Gaia had millions of cronus children?

you literally have 0 basis for that claim. and the manga would simply contradict that via each universe having their own gods (which is your position).

 

[Skullberserk]

are you implying Gaia had infinite children?

or if you don't want to include Omega cosmology, manga only has a 2-B cosmology with no MWI, so are you implying Gaia had millions of cronus children?

you literally have 0 basis for that claim. and the manga would simply contradict that via each universe having their own gods (which is your position).

Probably only Chronus (Next Dimension/Main Universe version) thanks to the description on the official site is unique in the multiverse, because he is described as the embodiment of all space and time. This god even has a very different form from the rest of the gods, since it exists as an abstract concept and does not have a body and physical form like the others, in ND we can see that its form is similar to the universe with countless nebulae that represent other points of time and space.

Requiem seems to imply that gods like Gaia are limited to a universe like the other gods, because their bodies are currently destroyed and they need the help of Pontus and the Cyclops, who activated a weapon (the flames of Karma) to eliminate humanity and take the cosmos of the planet (the planet Earth of that universe, not the terrestrial planets of the entire mutliverse), so that these gods can return.

It is even claimed that the ancient gods will return to take back the universe (not the multiverse).

Spoiler

 

[Hasty12345]

to eliminate humanity and take the cosmos of the planet (the planet Earth of that universe, not the terrestrial planets of the entire mutliverse), so that these gods can return.

This wouldn't be a contradiction, you're assuming the energy of all planets across the multiverse would be the requirement if there's only one God, however, that's not inherently the case as only 1 planets energy may be needed to break whatever seal or body or whatever it may be.

It is even claimed that the ancient gods will return to take back the universe (not the multiverse).

this isn't a contradiction either, as bringing Gaia back to a specific universe would be bringing her back to the multiverse as gods like Athena and Zeus have been shown in GA and G to travel throughout time and the multiverse. So bringing Gaia back to the "universe" would be bringing her back to the multiverse contextually.

Just because something works on a local scale, doesn't inherently contradict the corresponding objects or beings working on a multiversal scale.

 

[Skullberserk]

This wouldn't be a contradiction, you're assuming the energy of all planets across the multiverse would be the requirement if there's only one God, however, that's not inherently the case as only 1 planets energy may be needed to break whatever seal or body or whatever it may be.

this isn't a contradiction either, as bringing Gaia back to a specific universe would be bringing her back to the multiverse as gods like Athena and Zeus have been shown in GA and G to travel throughout time and the multiverse. So bringing Gaia back to the "universe" would be bringing her back to the multiverse contextually.

Just because something works on a local scale, doesn't inherently contradict the corresponding objects or beings working on a multiversal scale.

They have to get their body back and they are not affecting a multiverse to do so, just to see the planet and the universe where the story takes place.

No, it will just bring her back into that universe, because the gods only affect that universe, they even mention that they will return to take back the universe, not the multiverse.

Traveling to another universe does not indicate anything, even Dysnomia can travel throughout the multiverse and space and time on a higher level than the gods (with the exception of Chronos) and this does not indicate that she affects the entire multiverse and that she is a being that exists throughout the entire multiverse.

Athena cannot travel in time, so she needed to ask Chronos for help to travel to the past and change history to save Seiya's life. The only one who can travel to other universes was Zeus (the version of an unknown world that appears in Assassin as an enemy) and we do not know how he obtained that power. The other was Aioros with the ritual that created the strange singularity (black nucleus), who killed Athena with the help of Hades to create that singularity that allowed him to travel to other universes.

 

[Hasty12345]

They have to get their body back and they are not affecting a multiverse to do so, just to see the planet and the universe where the story takes place.

you're not understanding, why would the multiverse need to be effected? if Gaia is being summoned to a specific universe, there's 0 reason the multiverse would need to be effected, that's your head cannon.

No, it will just bring her back into that universe, because the gods only affect that universe, they even mention that they will return to take back the universe, not the multiverse.

being summoned to a specific universe =/= being only universal in range, Gods are literally 2-C based on Hades' UW so that logic doesn't even make sense.

raveling to another universe does not indicate anything, even Dysnomia can travel throughout the multiverse and space and time on a higher level than the gods (with the exception of Chronus) and this does not indicate that she affects the entire multiverse and that she is a being that exists throughout the entire multiverse.

The argument is there's only 1 of each primordial, not that they're multiversal. If Gaia is summoned into 1 specific universe but can freely traverse the multiverse then effectively it doesn;t matter what universe she's summoned in to. That is my point. I'm not arguing for multiversal AP idk why you keep equating "1 primordial/1 God to multiversal", there can exist 1 single Gaia throughout a multiverse without Gaia being multiversal.

Athena cannot travel in time, so she needed to ask Chronus for help to travel to the past and change history to save Seiya's life.

She does twice in the series, as does Shaka and the other Gold Saints in ND, 8th sense users in LC have time traveled without the aid of Chronos. Saori needing Chronos' help in ND is literally an outlier when the series is considered as a whole.



EDIT: Zeus can time travel without Chronos, the UW can be used to time travel (Seiya's soul in the past despite dying in the future), Aiolos sent his message throughout time in ND, Aiolos time travels in GA, Aiolia time travels in GA....

 

[Skullberserk]

you're not understanding, why would the multiverse need to be effected? if Gaia is being summoned to a specific universe, there's 0 reason the multiverse would need to be effected, that's your head cannon.

Yes, the universe where that version of Gaia exists, because it does not exist in another universe. Each universe has its own version of the gods.

being summoned to a specific universe =/= being only universal in range, Gods are literally 2-C based on Hades' UW so that logic doesn't even make sense.

Because it is their range and they only affect that universe, it is even described that they will return to take that universe, not the rest of the multiverse.

The argument is there's only 1 of each primordial, not that they're multiversal. If Gaia is summoned into 1 specific universe but can freely traverse the multiverse then effectively it doesn;t matter what universe she's summoned in to. That is my point. I'm not arguing for multiversal AP idk why you keep equating "1 primordial/1 God to multiversal", there can exist 1 single Gaia throughout a multiverse without Gaia being multiversal.

No, each universe has its own version of Gaia, and the Gaia that will be resurrected is the version of the universe where the Requiem story takes place. It is never said that Gaia and these gods can travel to other universes, it is even said that they only plan to take that universe back when they return.

She does twice in the series, as does Shaka and the other Gold Saints in ND, 8th sense users in LC have time traveled without the aid of Chronos. Saori needing Chronos' help in ND is literally an outlier when the series is considered as a whole.

EDIT: Zeus can time travel without Chronos, the UW can be used to time travel (Seiya's soul in the past despite dying in the future), Aiolos sent his message throughout time in ND, Aiolos time travels in GA, Aiolia time travels in GA....

She never travel in time, that is only the cosmos of Athena helping Aiolia in that battle, something similar she also did with Kaon when she helped him survive with his cosmos in Cape Sounion.

Athena has to ask her brothers for help to travel through time, and Artemis explains that she does not have that power either and needs the help of Chronos if she wishes to travel through time.

Spoiler

--------------------

The Gold Saints currently exist on a completely different plane of existence (Shaka mentions that he reached Nirvana), they were even destroyed in body and soul in the explosion of the Wailing Wall. It is just an ability of these characters, which not even gods like Artemis and Athena possess.

In TLC they needed help from Chronos to travel through time and change the history of their universe.

Zeus never traveled in time, he only traveled to other universes. Aiolos need a ritual and his Athena to kill the strange singularity (black nucleus) to travel in time and other universes.

 

[Hasty12345]

Yes, the universe where that version of Gaia exists, because it does not exist in another universe. Each universe has its own version of the gods.

Because it is their range and they only affect that universe, it is even described that they will return to take that universe, not the rest of the multiverse.

No, each universe has its own version of Gaia, and the Gaia that will be resurrected is the version of the universe where the Requiem story takes place.

These aren't counters. You are repeating what I've already countered, this is known as ad nauseum, I won't be addressing the same points again. You're equating range, ap and existence in a really weird way when I've already explained how that's false.

She never travel in time, that is only the cosmos of Athena

"she never traveled in time" proceeds to admit she traveled in time

something similar she also did with Kaon when she helped him survive with his cosmos in Cape Sounion.

another time travel feat.

Athena has to ask her brothers for help to travel through time, and Artemis explains that she does not have that power either and needs the help of Chronos if she wishes to travel through time.

Plot induced stupidity as Kuramada then shows literal 12 characters all able to time travel without any sort of help from any deity AND showed Hades' UW allows for time travel of some sort. And if their souls are destroyed yet still exist, 8th sense users should have mid-godly regen.

The Gold Saints currently exist on a completely different plane of existence (Shaka mentions that he reached Nirvana), they were even destroyed in body and soul in the explosion of the Wailing Wall.

Are you implying Gold Saints with 8th sense (which Athena has unlocked) exist on some higher plane Gods can't despite there being literal evidence that I've shown of Gods time traveling?

In TLC they needed help from Chronos to travel through time and change the history of their universe.

What I sent was a different instance. The scan showed was an 8th sense user explainign to Virgo and Sagi (LC) how the 8th sense works whilst showing them modern technology (Asmita even gets hit by a train). This happened in the Virgo Gaiden.

My point is, Gaia scales to all these characters who can freely traverse time ans/or the multiverse, as such, being summoned to a single universe doesn't contradict anything.

 

[Skullberserk]

These aren't counters. You are repeating what I've already countered, this is known as ad nauseum, I won't be addressing the same points again. You're equating range, ap and existence in a really weird way when I've already explained how that's false.

Because that is what is shown in the history of this franchise. The gods do not affect the multiverse and neither are they a unique being in the entire multiverse. As explained, these gods only affect one universe, they will even only sacrifice the Earth of a universe to bring them back, and they clearly say that they will only seek to take back the universe, not the multiverse.

"she never traveled in time" proceeds to admit she traveled in time
another time travel feat.

It's because she never traveled back in time in that scene, that's why even Cronos realizes that Saga never killed Athena, because the god believed that Saga killed Athena when she was a baby.

No, it only shows that Athena's cosmos can help the Saints in different parts of the world.

Plot induced stupidity as Kuramada then shows literal 12 characters all able to time travel without any sort of help from any deity AND showed Hades' UW allows for time travelof some sort.

It is the main manga and the main author, who says that she cannot travel in time. Even the time travel and the three-day limit imposed by Chronos is a main part of the plot.

Are you implying Gold Saints with 8th sense (which Athena has unlocked) exist on some higher plane Gods can't despite there being literal evidence that I've shown of Gods time traveling?

No, it only indicates that the Gold Saints reached a realm that even the gods cannot reach. Even Sho confirms that there are realms that even the gods cannot reach, for example the plane of existence where Dysnomia can observe the entire multiverse, that is why Dysnomia is interested in Shaka, because he is someone with a knowledge that even transcends the gods.

What I sent was a different instance. The scan showed was an 8th sense user explainign to Virgo and Sagi (LC) how the 8th sense works whilst showing them modern technology (Asmita even gets hit by a train). This happened in the Virgo Gaiden.

My point is, Gaia scales to all these characters who can freely traverse time ans/or the multiverse, as such, being summoned to a single universe doesn't contradict anything.

It is just an illusion and vision of the future that Alkes (Ilias's wife) showed them, who was one of the Oracles of Delfos and had the power to see the future.

No, because it is unknown if she has that power in the story and is even described to be a rare power even among the gods. She is also not a unique being in the entire multiverse as each universe has its own version of the gods, the only god that is likely unique in the entire multiverse is Chronus and only because he is described as the embodiment of all time and space. .

 

[Hasty12345]

Because that is what is shown in the history of this franchise. The gods do not affect the multiverse and neither are they a unique being in the entire multiverse. As explained, these gods only affect a universe, they will even only sacrifice the Earth of a universe to bring them back, and they clearly say that they will only recover in the universe, not the multiverse.

again, you're equating range and ap with existence. You understand the idea that Athena can be an abstract entity who reincarnates throughout the multiverse right?


Whether she does, or doesn't I'm no longer interested in debating. I'll let Unshakableone continue that debate if he so wishes.

But this "equality" you've derived isn't indicative of anything.

As for the rest, I'm interested in @Matt's opinion on the Gold Saints existing in/on a higher plane than the gods with their almighty 8th sense, perhaps he's be interested in a higher dimensional existence upgrade for the main Gold Saints or even low 1-C AP.

It is the main manga and the main author, who says that she cannot travel in time. Even the time travel and the three-day limit imposed by Chronos is a main part of the plot.

This also doesn't mean anything. Kurumada can be wrong. He verbatim contradicts himself when it's claimed "only chronos has the power to send you back in time" then shows Gold Saints doing it unassisted.

Okada also shows Athena traveling though time, universes and dimensions to save Shura, so again, plot induced stupidity exists and Kurumada is susceptible to it. You're literally arguing there's an Athena for every universe, so assuming main timeline Saori can't do something equates to all Athena's not being able to do it when we literally see an Athena perform an unassisted time travel feat is ridiculous.

You can't argue there are infinite Athena's then say they're all the same.

 

[Skullberserk]

again, you're equating range and ap with existence. You understand the idea that Athena can be an abstract entity who reincarnates throughout the multiverse right?

Because Athena is not an abstract entity and is never described that way in the franchise. Only Chronos is described that way on the franchise's official site.

But this "equality" you've derived isn't indicative of anything.

As for the rest, I'm interested in @Matt's opinion on the Gold Saints existing in/on a higher plane than the gods with their almighty 8th sense, perhaps he's be interested in a higher dimensional existence upgrade for the main Gold Saints or even low 1-C AP.

The Gold Saints probably exist on a different plane of existence as described by Shaka (who says he is in Nirvana), but this does not indicate that it is a higher dimension.

This also doesn't mean anything. Kurumada can be wrong. He verbatim contradicts himself when it's claimed "only chronos has the power to send you back in time" then shows Gold Saints doing it unassisted.

Okada also shows Athena traveling though time, universes and dimensions to save Shura, so again, plot induced stupidity exists and Kurumada is susceptible to it. You're literally arguing there's an Athena for every universe, so assuming main timeline Saori can't do something equates to all Athena's not being able to do it when we literally see an Athena perform an unassisted time travel feat is ridiculous.

You can't argue there are infinite Athena's then say they're all the same.

Kurumada is the main author of the franchise and literally builds the story of Next Dimension based on that. This is not a minor error or small inconsistency, because it is the basis of his manga. He says that Athena cannot travel through time. Who said the Gold Saints could take Athena back in time? They can probably only travel in this spirit form, it even seems that they cannot manifest freely in the world and only appear on a few occasions for a very short time.

Okada never showed Athena traveling through time and other universes to save Shura. Saori only appears on a few occasions and never does anything relevant, the most important thing she did was grant her blood to Shura to prevent him from suffering the effects of time travel. Even Shura says that time travel and travel to other universes is a power of the god Chronos.

Spoiler

 

[Hasty12345]

Okada never showed Athena traveling through time and other universes to save Shura

I literally sent the scan...

hura says that time travel and travel to other universes is a power of the god Chronos.

No, he says HE was sent to the future due to Chronos, nothing to do with Athena herself, we don't even know which Athena it was who saved him and since you're arguing there are infinite Athena's you can't make a claim the Athena who saved him is the same Athena who's borrowing Chronos' power as there's no way to tell and it's never stated Athena was assisted in any way.

 

[Skullberserk]

I literally sent the scan...

She never showed that like I explained before.

No, he says HE was sent to the future due to Chronos, nothing to do with Athena herself, we don't even know which Athena it was who saved him and since you're arguing there are infinite Athena's you can't make a claim the Athena who saved him is the same Athena who's borrowing Chronos' power as there's no way to tell and it's never stated Athena was assisted in any way.

It is literally said that time travel and travel other worlds is the power of Chronos as the god of the time, not the power of Athena who is the goddess of the justice and wisdom in this universe. Athena never showed the power to travel in time and other worlds, no version of Athena has that power, that is why she could not do anything after Zeus destroyed the world (planet) and only accepts the decision of Aiolos, who uses a strange ritual with the help of Hades and the sacrifice of Athena to create a portal (the strange singularity or black core that links the worlds in Assassin's history) to other worlds.

If Athena had the power to travel in time, the plot of all the mangas of the franchise would not make sense, because Athena could travel in time to stop all problems and save thousands of lives, for example she could stop the rebellion of Saga and prevent the death of half the Sanctuary, some Silvers and Camus who were only deceived by Saga could be saved easily.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

My proposition:

I'll write a summary for the 2-C stuff that was agreed upon.

---

Now regarding the 2-A stuff.

I'm willing to make a separate crt for it in the future

Matt wants to wait and see how Saint Seiya Requiem Manga develops

Additionally, their is a rewrote Manga of the original coming out soon called "Final Edition" that is supposedly ment to fix some plot holes and make the timelime more coherent

On top of that; Matt is skeptical on cronus the titan king being 2-A. Which the 2-A rating we are discussing is dependent on him at this moment. So the pivtol charact the tier is scaling from may get downgraded.

Now I do know of another 2-A feat that I think is legit in the verse, but I believe it requires a separate CRT as this character is not 2-A at this moment

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Also some of the stuff I'm seeing seems a bit deraily...

 

[Antvasima]

My proposition:

I'll write a summary for the 2-C stuff that was agreed upon.

---

Now regarding the 2-A stuff.

I'm willing to make a separate crt for it in the future

Matt wants to wait and see how Saint Seiya Requiem Manga develops

Additionally, their is a rewrote Manga of the original coming out soon called "Final Edition" that is supposedly ment to fix some plot holes and make the timelime more coherent

On top of that; Matt is skeptical on cronus the titan king being 2-A. Which the 2-A rating we are discussing is dependent on him at this moment. So the pivtol charact the tier is scaling from may get downgraded.

Now I do know of another 2-A feat that I think is legit in the verse, but I believe it requires a separate CRT as this character is not 2-A at this moment

@Matthew_Schroeder @Everything12 @DarkDragonMedeus @Ionliosite @TISSG7Redgrave
What do you think about this solution?

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Hmmm that can work if there can be changes to this so that would be fine in itself.

 

[Everything12]

I guess that makes sense.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I copied and pasted this over in a hurry so i might have made a mistake such as forgetting to change a tier as agreed it should be lower. If i made that kind of mistake ask me and I'll clarify.. I am sorry..

Short Summary

Libra Weapons of the Libra Weapons = 2-C AP and 2-C Durability with the Shield

Sagittarius Seiya and Aiolos = 2-C with the Sagittarius Bow
Seiya should be the only one where the Bow is Optional Equipment not standards

Sagittarius Seiya and Gemini Saga = 2-C with the Golden dagger
Both should have this as Optional Equipment not Standard

Hypnos, Thanatos, and God Cloths should be 2-C in AP and Durability.

Hades first key = 2-C AP, and durability

---

Long version;



God Cloth Shun, Hyoga, Shiryu, and Ikki:
God cloth Seiya should also be straight up Low Multiversal 2-C

Attack Potency: Low Multiverse level (They are comparable to Hypnos. The power of the God cloth allowed them to exchange blows with Hypnos and even had him on guard. And worried. Shun’s chains were able to crack the God Cloth of Hypnos, whereas the combined power of the Cygnus and Dragon God Cloths were enough to one-shot Hypnos.


Durability: Low Multiverse level (The power of the God cloths allowed them to withstand and exchange blows/attacks from Hypnos)

Changes here: The God Cloths should be Low Multiverse not Universe level+

---

Gemini Saga:

Attack Potency: At least Galaxy level, Universe level+ when using his maximum power (The Galaxian Explosion is equal to Leo Aiolia's Photon Burst. The Galaxian explosion had its power compared to Virgo Shaka's Tenma Kofuku. The power of the 7th sense is comparable to The Big Bang that created Time, alongside the Universe. Gold Saints are also stated to be capable of destroying the Universe.), Low Multiverse level (The Golden Dagger is a weapon specifically designed to kill other Gods)

Changes here: Add in Low Multiverse level tiering for the Golden Dagger not physical stats

The dagger should be optional equipment not standard.

---

Sagittarius Seiya:

Attack Potency: Universe level+ (Held his own against Mars), Low Multiverse level via the Golden Dagger (He was able to hurt Saturn with the Golden Dagger), Multiverse level+ with the Sagittarius Bow (The Sagittarius Bow is strong enough to kill gods such as Lucifer, Abel, and even Zeus) | Universe level+ with Enhanced Sagittarius Gold Cloth, Low Multiverse level via the Golden Dagger (He was able to hurt Saturn with the Golden Dagger), Low Multiverse level with the Sagittarius Bow (The Sagittarius Bow is strong enough to kill gods such as Abel)

Changes here: Add in Low Multiverse level AP for the Golden Dagger, and Low Multiverse level for the Sagittarius bow not physical stats

Both should be Optional equipment not standard

---

Libra Dohko:

Attack Potency: At least Galaxy level, Universe level+ when using his maximum power (The most powerful of the Gold Saints alongside Aries Shion, superior to Gemini Saga), at least Galaxy level, Universe level+ through most powerful attacks (Equal to Aries Shion's), Low Multiverse level (The Libra Weapons are stronger than the combined power of all twelve gold saints. The Libra Sword gave very minor damage to the Cataclysm Slash which has strength equal, or greater than, Abzu)

Durability: at least Galaxy level, Universe level+ when burning his Cosmo to the maximum, Low Multiverse level with the Libra Shield (The Libra Shield protected Dohko with attacks from Gods such as Pontos. The Libra shield also destroyed one of the seven pillars that were supported by Poseidon's Divine Will)

Changes Here: Low Multiverse level AP for his Libra Weapons, and Low Multiverse level durability for Libra Shield. not his physical stats

---

Aiolos:

Attack Potency: At least Galaxy level, Universe level+ when using his maximum power (Stated as being the strongest Gold Saint by Aries Mu, Capricorn Shura and Virgo Shaka. Said to be the strongest Gold Saint by the narration four times over two consecutive pages. Has been stated to have strength superior to Saga's. His power is superior to that of the Sun God Ra, knocked sealed Typhon back into slumber with one attack, channeled Atum's light and killed the God of Chaos Apophis with one arrow), Low Multiverse level (The Sagittarius Bow is strong enough to kill gods such as Abel)

Changes here: Low Multiverse level for the Sagittarius bow not physical stats

The Bow should be standard equipment for Aiolos

---

Thanatos:

Attack Potency: Low Multiverse level (Casually destroyed all of the Libra Weapons)

Durability: Low Multiverse level (Comparable to his brother, Hypnos. Took some attacks from a God Cloth Pegasus Seiya.)

Changes here: Thanatos should be upgraded to Low Multiverse level in AP and durability

---

Hypnos:

Attack Potency: Low Multiverse level (Comparable to his brother Thanatos)

Durability: Low Multiverse level (Hypnos tanked an attack that had the combined force/power of an entire era of saints including the Pope, all 12 Gold Saints, all Silver and Bronze saints of that era. He took some damage from a God Cloth Pegasus Seiya)

Changes here: he should be upgraded in AP and durability to Low Multiverse level

---

Hades:

Attack Potency: Low Multiverse level (Above Thanatos, and Hypnos.)

Durability: Low Multiverse level (Above Thanatos and Hypnos)

Changes here: His first key should be Low Multiverse instead of Universe Level+ as it is directly scaling from Hypnos and Thanatos and this was a much weaker being. This was actually Alone whom was just borrowing hades power instead of a fully, or some 80% awakened Hades.