Sailor moon star seed downgrade

[Theglassman12]

If you think Bastard's arguments for concept hax is wrong, then by all means make a thread to argue it being removed. We're talking about Sailor Moon here, not Bastard so enough with the derailments if all you're going to say is "but this franchise has it so why can't sailor moon".

 

[Hypertornado099]

Some abstractions are treated as conceptual because this wiki likes to give ratings like candies, and I want the mods to held responsable for letting this crap flood (mostly in the way of revisiting what qualifies as conceptual). Bastard!! is an example I have already given, which was just waved off because it was "bringing another series"

So whataboutism?

 

[Livinmeme]

If you think Bastard's arguments for concept hax is wrong, then by all means make a thread to argue it being removed. We're talking about Sailor Moon here, not Bastard so enough with the derailments if all you're going to say is "but this franchise has it so why can't sailor moon".

I don't think it you understand why I am apealing to precendence, if A characters gets law manip because something that isn't definetly law manip, then it settles precedence about law manip standards, and it is a sign of standards not being held to proper seriousness.

 

[Livinmeme]

So whataboutism?

If some judge bails someone out of jail when he committed "A" action, but puts someone into jail because the same exact action, it is reasonable to assume that people won't be happy about such double standards (b-but whataboutism), it shouldn't have happened in the first place, and this isn't a one time only, several verses have suffered from this (like a shitload of CM3 haxes).

 

[Hypertornado099]

Queen Serenity states that star seeds are stored inside the heart, an abstract notion.

Why is the heart abstract?

 

[Theglassman12]

You're not appealing to precedence, you're literally doing whataboutism here. This entire time you've done nothing but either say Sailor moon has actual concept hax with no proof, or you just keep bringing up Bastard! and say that the verse is wrong too, which again, is irrelevant to this thread because we're not talking about if Bastard's concept hax is legit, we're talking about sailor moon. If you derail this thread with one more bastard comment I will be deleting your posts. Actually give an argument for sailor moon concept hax or don't bother arguing at all if whataboutisms is the best you can do.

 

[Livinmeme]

Why is the heart abstract?

Because it is obviously referring to the abstract notion of a heart, unless you are supossed to believe it is literally in the heart.

 

[Livinmeme]

You're not appealing to precedence, you're literally doing whataboutism here. This entire time you've done nothing but either say Sailor moon has actual concept hax with no proof, or you just keep bringing up Bastard! and say that the verse is wrong too, which again, is irrelevant to this thread because we're not talking about if Bastard's concept hax is legit, we're talking about sailor moon. If you derail this thread with one more bastard comment I will be deleting your posts. Actually give an argument for sailor moon concept hax or don't bother arguing at all if whataboutisms is the best you can do.

Yes I am. I have already said how you can't let a bunch of verses get metaphysical haxes by dubious reasons, and don't expect people to do TO CRT apealing to those arguments in an intentional manner, arguments don't exist in a void.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Some abstractions are treated as conceptual because this wiki likes to give ratings like candies, and I want the mods to held responsable for letting this crap flood (mostly in the way of revisiting what qualifies as conceptual). Bastard!! is an example I have already given, which was just waved off because it was "bringing another series"

If you think another verse has an unwarranted ability make a thread on that verse instead of derailing this one. Thank you.

 

[Livinmeme]

If you think another verse has an unwarranted ability make a thread on that verse instead of derailing this one. Thank you.

I shouldn't be the one who tries to solve this metaphysical problems because the mods suddenly lowered their standards a ten fold, and don't expect people to believe than that is precedence, at the very least, is just weird.
Yeah, this isn't getting nowhere, and I bet that other mod will tackle this problem in a decade or so

 

[CodeCCLL]

I bet that other mod will tackle this problem in a decade

In some cases, hundreds or even thousands of pages need to be edited to fix something. Do you really think these things can be sorted out instantly?

 

[Livinmeme]

In some cases, hundreds or even thousands of pages need to be edited to fix something. Do you really think these things can be sorted out instantly?

Being hyperbolic with the purpose of comedy.

 

[Vietthai96]

To be fair, there are like over 35k pages, going through them just to find what page have Y or X hax and is it up to standard or not is hard and time consuming

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Why is the heart abstract?

Because it is? This is a common motif in all of human history.

Said evidence you posted is mostly just you quoting the ability pages and posting scans that have little to no connection to star seeds being concepts or information, this isn't evidence, you're just making a non sequitur by making a connection that doesn't exist in the series with the scans you provided. Also star seeds being the building blocks of reality doesn't make it information, information would have to be specified that it's directly tied to actual data/info of reality itself, and not just some other thing. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, something you lack given what this thread has proven.

Whatever! I don’t care. You haven’t addressed any of my arguments. You are obviously arguing in bad faith.

Needing a mechanic to be specifically called a concept has never been a requirement if the mechanic fits the requirements of the ability page, example: see Bastard!!, See Kingdom Hearts, See Destiny, See God of War, see Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken

You should also remove any mention of Plato from the CM page since plato never uses the word concept in The Republic.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The Issue with "Name Fallacy"

I have been running into this issue on the wiki, and I think it's time to address it formally. The so called, "name fallacy" where someone makes the claim that the name of a technique cannot be used as supporting evidence for what said technique does. I think this line of argument to be plain...

vsbattles.com

to quote admin:

"Well, if the name is consistent with description, it could be weak supporting evidence but in the end. I would still find that why justify something as weak evidence when demonstrations and or detailed descriptions would override it or make a name for something not very relevant."

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

"An abstraction that gives objects in reality their form"

Star Seeds are birthed from the Galaxy Cauldron, the origin of everything in reality. Star Seeds are stars and possibilities.

A blanket statement of them being possibilities doesn't mean anything without substantiation. "Possibility" of what? Same with that "everything" statement. It needs to be defined what that "everything" entails.

Star Seeds are the source of all life and celestial objects. This include non-physical beings like ghosts, spirits, etc.

It seems to me the possibilities being referred to are tied strictly to life and matter. Your ghost scan does not have a mention of these ghosts being linked to the star seeds; also, please note, even if they are (which I don't doubt), this also doesn't necessarily prove them conceptual. It just shows star seeds can give birth to spiritual objects/bodies.

Sailor Moon states that if she gets her friends star seeds back, she can return their physical forms.

Star Seeds have a very explicit relationship to life. They can govern life forms and physical objects (as they also give birth to stars), without being conceptual.

Glass is correct here that there's really nothing here giving proof of a conceptual relationship. Life Manipulation is a given, and as a power, fits perfectly here in fact.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

A blanket statement of them being possibilities doesn't mean anything without substantiation. "Possibility" of what? Same with that "everything" statement. It needs to be defined what that "everything" entails.

Everything is everything.

"Strong Stars, weak stars, light, power, everything is born there"
"All things originated here, as one."

Why would the story need to define what everything means? It just means everything.

Star Seeds have a very explicit relationship to life. They can govern life forms and physical objects (as they also give birth to stars), without being conceptual.

"They can do exactly what concepts do, and behave exactly like how concepts behave, but since they're not called concept, we won't allow this unique verse mechanic to be equalized as concepts anymore" is all I am hearing.

It shouldn't matter that Sailor Moon doesn't spell out that star seeds are concepts, it's still something that can exist in fiction and a mechanic that governs aspects of reality and gives all things their forms already implies that star seeds are the verses equivalent of concepts.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Everything is everything.

"Strong Stars, weak stars, light, power, everything is born there"
"All things originated here, as one."

Why would the story need to define what everything means? It just means everything.

Matter Manipulation, Power Bestowal, Light Manipulation

Without proper elaboration, we don't assume more than what's substantiated.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Iamunanimousinthat Ok so now you're bringing up whataboutisms now, so I'm just gonna assume you don't have anything new to argue at this point. If that's the case I'll apply the changes.

 

[Theglassman12]

Changes have been applied to as much of the pages as I can with how they're formatted, gonna close the thread.