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Sailor Moon Revision Project: Speed Update

Iamunanimousinthat

Iamunanimousinthat

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1,253
Let's get the Sailor Moon revisions started now that site has finally been moved.

I will begin with a speed update:

Overview: During the second arc, Death Phantom, Black Lady, and the Silver Crystal all showed feats of immeasurable speed, via being able to physically move to an area that can only be reached via time travel.

1. Black Lady

Feat 1

Black Lady first feat was physically traveling from Planet Nemesis to the edge of Spacetime, where Wiseman's domain is located.

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https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...MG_3533.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20190518041002

Feat 2

Black Lady was able to create shockwaves that traveled through time.

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https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...MG_3534.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20190519151406

2. Death Phantom

Scaling to Black Lady:

Death Phantom is the person who gave Black Lady her powers and wields the Dark Crystal.

Feat 1:

Death Phantom was also able to travel and bring people to the edge of spacetime

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https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...MG_3540.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20190522042723
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...MG_3541.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20190522042819
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...MG_3542.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20190518043430


3. Silver Crystal

Feat 1:

The Silver Crystal of the present could not work in the future and the silver crystal can only work in the time period it is from. To get around this universal law, the Silver Crystal sends power across time and space:

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https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...MG_3538.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20190519033302
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...MG_3530.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20190519033228

Feat 2:

The Silver Crystal's light reaches wiseman's domain and the Corridor of Spacetime (a place that can only be reached via time traveling using the time key)

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https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net..._part_2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20201015224434
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net..._part_1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20201015224514
4. Who scales to what?

  • Prince Demande, who is powered by the Dark Crystal and Wiseman, was able to speedblitz Black Lady and steal the silver crystals from her.
  • Sailor Pluto was able to Stop Time before Prince Demande could touch the two silver crystals together.
  • other characters from being able to counter attacks from Sailor Moon and Sailor Pluto

Conclusion: Who gets what?

Death Phantom: Immeasurable Speed

Black Lady: Immeasurable Speed

Prince Demande: MFTL+, Immeasurable with Dark Crystal amp

Sailor Moon: MFTL+ with Immeasurable Attack Speed and reactions

Sailor Pluto: MFTL+ With Immeasurable Attack Speed and reactions

Everyone else: MFTL+ with Immeasurable reactions

Other characters: MFTL
 
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Going to the "edge of space time" and having shockwaves or energy travel through time don't seem like strong proof for immeasurable speed tbh. The edge of spacetime could easily mean the edge of the Universe, or otherwise it is some unquantifiable place, unless she is literally stated to be freely flying backward and forward in time very specifically, but id question even if that applies to combat and attack speed tbh. Shockwaves effecting space time seems more like a Universe+ range thing.
 
This is clearly just time travel. Saying "they can always move through time and space into any point in them at infinite speeds via speed alone" isn't more likely than "they used time travel on this few occasions", if anyone says the opposite then I'm gonna stare at that comment for a while.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Sailor Pluto describes rifts as being timeless and having no concept of distance and direction and also a void which erases things
Click to expand...
The void standards have changed. Timeless voids do not provide any kind of speed anymore.
Eficiente said:
This is clearly just time travel. Saying "they can always move through time and space into any point in them at infinite speeds via speed alone" isn't more likely than "they used time travel on this few occasions", if anyone says the opposite then I'm gonna stare at that comment for a while.
Click to expand...
Tell me about it. I personally feel the way we rate speed as "Immeasurable via travelling through time" is stupid. It's just an ability of time travel that does not effect a character's regular speed. That is like me saying "Unquantifiable via breaking space-time dimensions" for their AP and treating it as something different than their regular AP.
 
This is not just time travel. When characters time travel, they use the time key to travel to the corridor of spacetime and then use the spacetime door. Or characters teleport off screen. In Black Lady and Death Phantom's case they are the only ones shown to physically travel to these places without using the time key or by teleporting away.

And my void statement has nothing to do with the speed update. It's in reference to show the edge of spacetime isn't the edge of the universe but a rift in time and space.
 
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Yeah, Time travel is as a general ability is not qualifying as speed anymore. It's like giving characters infinite speed via teleportation. Infinite speed is for characters who instantaneously able to move anywhere with 0 reaction time, or travel infinite distance in a finite amount of time. Immeasurable speed is for characters who are faster than instantaneous and can travel anywhere and anywhen within such times.
 
Both death Phantom and Black lady have shown that they can go anywhere and anywhen instantaneously.

and the silver crystal power not only traveled everywhere it also traveled everywhen.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
This is not just time travel. When characters time travel, they use the time key to travel to the corridor of spacetime and then use the spacetime door. Or characters teleport off screen. In Black Lady and Death Phantom's case they are the only ones shown to physically travel to these places without using the time key or by teleporting away.
Click to expand...
This doesn't prove it's not time travel, saying that it's time travel done differently isn't that bad of a take (especially with how many times it happened), but saying it's Immeasurable Speed adds more and bigger assumptions.

AKM sama said:
Tell me about it. I personally feel the way we rate speed as "Immeasurable via travelling through time" is stupid. It's just an ability of time travel that does not effect a character's regular speed. That is like me saying "Unquantifiable via breaking space-time dimensions" for their AP and treating it as something different than their regular AP.
Click to expand...
Omnipresence should also not be there.

I feel it for the users who follow the things we as a wiki claim just like that, but I believe the real issue is how we deal with things as we think they are and not as to how we have them written, which leads to chaos. Things like saying that x characters can do x things not in their profiles is common practice, or sometimes it takes us forever to update pages into what professionals know how they work. Practices like that need to be cut so we can everything together.
 
Omnipresence should have it's own discussion. I'm aware example problems is character A trading blows and dodging attack from character B who is Omnipresent across all time and space qualifies as Immeasurable speed. Or even characters with temporal Omnipresence being assumed to have Immeasurable combat speed and reactions by default. But this isn't the thread to discuss stuff like this.
 
I do believe I have already proven that it’s not just time travel. These places aren’t places located in the timeline.

Characters that can teleport anywhere even to different dimensions cannot reach this places.

Even characters that can teleport freely through time and can use mind manipulation across time cannot reach these places.

Only characters using Sailor Pluto’s time key can reach this place or characters that were teleported by Death Phantom. Or characters physically brought there by Death Phantom or Black Lady.
 
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Dimensional Travel. Being able to teleport better.

Maybe the others don't have Dimensional Travel.
 
teleport better?
Are we just grasping at straws here? It comes across as just dismissing everything and ignoring all the details

If you have a scan of a character explaining it as superior teleportation or just better dimensional travel by all means post it.
 
Eficiente said:
Dimensional Travel. Being able to teleport better.

Maybe the others don't have Dimensional Travel.
Click to expand...
That seems like something that you would require actual evidence for Mrs Unanimous’s conclusion definitely seems like the more natural conclusion in this case since that evidence hasn’t been shown.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
teleport better?
Are we just grasping at straws here? It comes across as just dismissing everything and ignoring all the details

If you have a scan of a character explaining it as superior teleportation or just better dimensional travel by all means post it.
Click to expand...
If I am then it's super cusual, the comment may as well have grammar errors.

Teleport better is a more likely thing, that's why I said it, and I ignored no context. One is to have a power on a higher scale, the other gives the ability to move anywhere in time and speed not via powers but just speed alone and also gives infinite speed to the characters doing that, scaling to everything they can do and those who scale to them, there are 3 completely unnecessary assumptions there that give something super OP. Is this all nonsense to you? Am I still ignoring stuff?
fandom_00potato said:
That seems like something that you would require actual evidence for Mrs Unanimous’s conclusion definitely seems like the more natural conclusion in this case since that evidence hasn’t been shown.
Click to expand...
Nah, I used common sense to say the more likely thing, he would need evidence for what he said.
 
But you would need one too proving it as better teleportation. That is more of an assumption, which would need a scan for proof.
The “three assumptions.” You claimed that she has is really only one assumption and the natural conclusions that of the assumption being true. If the speed is considered true then it would scale to most to all of the stuff.
 
You would still have to prove that Black Lady traveled via use of her power when the scans show her physically traveling from nemesis to wiseman’s domain. She doesn’t teleport, or warp space around her, or has a flash of power, not even an incantation. All showings of dimensional traveling or teleportation showcase these things. You’ll have to explain why we cannot assume she is using just physical speed alone.
 
fandom_00potato said:
But you would need one too proving it as better teleportation. That is more of an assumption, which would need a scan for proof.
The “three assumptions.” You claimed that she has is really only one assumption and the natural conclusions that of the assumption being true. If the speed is considered true then it would scale to most to all of the stuff.
Click to expand...
All the feats shown can be done via time travel and dimensional travel, if in-verse some people can't do that or something stops them from it then that fact doesn't stop the powers of time travel and dimensional travel in general from doing those feats, they need to be on a higher scale then what those people showed. When those feats were done the easier thing to say, most logical, and that assumes less things is that time travel and dimensional travel were used. Saying that it was physical movement and not powers is unlikely as fiction portrays the latter as more common by a lot. Saying it were physical movements at infinite speed adds another assumption, the more likely thing to say when going to other points in time and dimensions is that those powers were used, saying it was infinite speed doesn't come out of the story and needs proof. On top of all that saying that speed is a thing the characters do all the time once again doesn't come out of anywhere, that needs proof.

You guys have a super high value on the speed feats and other context for them being on the claimed level, but they don't give the speed, and so there's no need to go in circles about it and bring up stuff that was never legit.
Iamunanimousinthat said:
You would still have to prove that Black Lady traveled via use of her power when the scans show her physically traveling from nemesis to wiseman’s domain. She doesn’t teleport, or warp space around her, or has a flash of power, not even an incantation. All showings of dimensional traveling or teleportation showcase these things. You’ll have to explain why we cannot assume she is using just physical speed alone.
Click to expand...
The power of time travel can be used that way, even if the character says "I'm using my speed to move through time!", what about it? Where's the infinite speed?
 
Eficiente, you haven’t proved anything though. Just saying that it’s dimensional travel or teleporting doesn’t make it so.

I can show you all instances of dimensional travel and teleportation in the series, and none of them look similar to anything here or use the same methods.

Saying it’s more likely to be x isn’t an argument. That’s just an assumption. I can’t deprove something you have yet to prove.
Post evidence supporting your claim.
 
Honestly its likely just teleportation or dimensional travel, but even at best if they time travel via movement it would likely just be like it is for Superman and the Flash, only applicable as time travel speed, not relevant to attack or reaction speed. It doesn't inherently apply to their reaction or attack speed just from moving through time, to get immeasurable speed across the board you need to be faster than instantaneous in all movements, not just travel speed, and able to go anywhere and any time via movement. Being stated or shown to transcend linear time would also be good for substantiating evidence, albeit that alone isn't enough of course.
 
Ryu did bring up the topic that AKM had plans to remove Immeasurable speed from Pre-Crisis Superman and Barry Allen as it is simply nothing beyond Time Travel.
 
If you can show me scans of the individuals freely moving backward and forward through time via movement, showcasing clear instantaneous or better reaction and combat speed to prove it applies to all areas, and something stating they transcend time to substantiate the feats further then id agree you have a good case, but I've only seen shockwaves cross time space (range feat), some time travel (likely hax, maybe immeasurable during time travel like superman at best) and them going into the edge of time space which is apparently a void (no longer counts as a speed feat as its unquantifiable and not inherently any speed). They are not the same things that I listed above. Anyway, im going to sleep but that's my take on what I've seen so far.
 
I'm not doing this move the goalpost game. Every time you comment, you give a more specific and narrow condition.

You are also contradicting yourself and making no sense. If sending shockwaves across time (this isn't just shockwaves, they are attacks that do damage) is just a range feat then how is an individual freely moving backward and forward through time not also a range feat? What exactly is the difference between the two?

And then you come with the travel speed fallacy. Immeasurable while traveling but not during combat doesn't make any more sense than FTL during travel speed but not during combat. Immeasurable characters don't have to make sure every single they do is immeasurable just like FTL characters don't have constantly be at FTL to be marked down as FTL. The very purpose of this site is to record what a character is capable of. (and comparing it to Comicbook characters is just a fail, you know that comic book characters are treated completely different due to the hundreds of issues, writers, versions, retcons, outliers, contradictions etc. )

Black Lady and Death Phantom were both shown to be able to travel to the edge of spacetime instantaneously, Death Phantom did this during a battle with senshi.

The silver crystal was sending attacks across time, and lit up everywhere and everywhen. (and this isn't the only arc it did this, it did it in the fourth arc). It is literally stated to be "unhindered by the layers of time". The dark crystal is the silver crystal's negative opposite and has done this feat as well several times within the arc.

And stop mentioning the Edge of Spacetime being a void. It has nothing to do with my speed argument. Bringing that up serves nothing but to cloud the arguments.
 
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It is nothing new that we tend to separate speed via time travel from regular combat speed, if the former has never been shown to apply for the latter.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
If sending shockwaves across time (this isn't just shockwaves, they are attacks that do damage) is just a range feat then how is an individual freely moving backward and forward through time not also a range feat? What exactly is the difference between the two?
Click to expand...
If your attacks can do damage to characters across time, then it is literally treated as Universal+ range. The latter is just time travel. That's the difference.
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Immeasurable while traveling but not during combat doesn't make any more sense than FTL during travel speed but not during combat.
Click to expand...
Like Ant said, we already distinguish between the character's regular speed and the immeasurable rating that comes due to time travel (time travel can be performed with even FTL speeds in fiction btw). Confusion like this is exactly why I want this practice to be stopped. However, I will converse with other staff members in private before sitewide revisions are allowed again.
 
The attacks don't just target people across time, they specifically physically are travelling through time.

And Death Phantom was performing the feat in the middle of the battle. It's not just a method of time travel.
 
I brought it up in another thread, but Dollorean was able to time travel via flying 82 miles per hour with only 1.21 Gigawatts of energy.
 
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