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Sage Monarch Half-Annulled (NEP & Transduality)

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Muchacho_mrm

Muchacho_mrm

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There is a realm called nevasaññānāsaññāyatana which is seems to be a buddhist concept of perception and non-perception. Anyways, King Immortal-Slayer is explaining enlightenment regarding the annulled and he ends up explaining nevasaññānāsaññāyatana:

“Consummate enlightenment,” King Immortal-Slayer said. “With one thought, flowers bloom. With one thought, trees wither. With one thought, life and extermination. With one thought, nirvanic rebirth. Remember, your thoughts are your everything. What you imagine in your sea of consciousness is true and real. You must come to understand what is true and real, and what is empty and void. Understand what are thoughts and what are not thoughts. This is called Nevasaññānāsaññāyatana, which is neither perception nor non-perception. It is a world, an expression of space-time, a place with neither desire nor physicality, a miraculous thought. Your fleshly body is surrounded by a world that doesn't exist. It is not thought. Yet it isn’t a lack of thought.”
Click to expand...

I'll try to break it down.



In this state (as visually illustrated below), they exist in a liminal state -- a state of being in which they exist in the realm of being perceivable and yet, outside of it, at the same time.
fV5Dklj.png


The next piece makes it clear that nevasaññānāsaññāyatana has no physicality to it, making it a void: "a place with neither desire nor physicality".




The next quote: "It is not thought. Yet it isn’t a lack of thought.” As illustrated below, they exist in a state of lacking thought, yet not, at the same time.


2sS0FTv.png








Later MC got BFR into nearly this state (this isn't even the true extent of Nevasaññānāsaññāyatana). Through him we find out that people in Nevasaññānāsaññāyatana not only vanish from the reality, it makes reality nothing more than a dream:
However, his joy quickly faded as he realized that he didn’t know how to return from this state. If he couldn't return, it made reality like little more than a dream. This wasn’t the half-Annulled level. After all, in that level, it was supposedly possible to freely enter and exit the state of Nevasaññānāsaññāyatana.
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Technically r>f state and this reality would include a 5-9 D realm, but the point is that they aren't able to be interacted not simply because of NEP, but because they simply no longer exist within reality.



Half-Annulled​


nevasaññānāsaññāyatana is cool and all but a half-annulled cultivator doesn't actually need it and we later we see a half-annulled surpass that state:
Yang Qi exhaled slowly as he saw Proud Heaven reaching the half-Annulled level. He knew the truth: King Immortal-Slayer wasn’t dead. In the very last moment, he had entered an incomprehensible state of existence that not even Proud Heaven could be aware of. But Yang Qi was aware of it. King Immortal-Slayer wouldn’t be King Immortal-Slayer if he were that easy to slay.
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Yang Qi was able to sense that he wasn't gone. He was in a state that surpassed even Nevasaññānāsaññāyatana, yet wasn’t the Annulled level.
Click to expand...

The natural state of half-annulled cultivators is state to have a nonexistent body and that the mind they leave behind is in a liminal state encompassing what is real and isn't:
Yang Qi sank into silent contemplation, reining in his power. His body was hardly discernible, as though it had vanished. That was what happened in the half-Annulled level. The body didn't exist. Only the deathless and eternal psyche and will remained. Of course, immense power fluctuations resonated from the heart and mind, spanning the gap between that which was real and that which was illusory.
Click to expand...




My proposal:​

Type 1 (Specific Transduality): Being qualitatively beyond and superior to the nature of one or several specific dual systems. Possibly Type 2 (False General Transduality):
  • Half-Annulled experts can enter nevasaññānāsaññāyatana, a state in which they are neither 1, nor 0 on the perception & non-perception, thought & no-thought duality scale. The former duality may extend to all that can be perceivable in all levels of reality. Alternatively, Half-Annulled that scale to and surpass King Immortal-Slayer, can enter a state that surpasses nevasaññānāsaññāyatana, further transcending dual systems -- which would include space & time.

NEP type:
  • Material Nonexistence: Half-Annulled cultivators have bodies that do not exist and nevasaññānāsaññāyatana has no physicality to it. Half-Annuled experts can also go beyond nevasaññānāsaññāyatana.
  • Idealistic Nonexistence: Half-Annulled have a psyche that is neither 1, nor 0 in terms of what is real and isn't real. Their mind encompassing the gap between such states. Also, within nevasaññānāsaññāyatana, they are liminal regarding perception & non-perception.
NEP Aspect:
  • Spiritual Nonexistence & Mental Nonexistence: Their soul is their mind. Both their will and souls enter nevasaññānāsaññāyatana and in their natural state, their minds occupy the gap between what is real and what isn't.
  • Conceptual Nonexistence: In nevasaññānāsaññāyatana, they are disconnected from the concept of desire, cannot be defined as what is perceivable and what is not and what has and lack thoughts. Additionally being cut from such definitions as they no longer exist within reality. Technically abstractions of the psyche and those not given thought by humans is covered by both sides of the liminal state they're in.
  • Information Nonexistence: Information can be perceived and interacted with. In nevasaññānāsaññāyatana, they exist in a liminal state in-between perception and non-perception. Not to mention they aren't even in reality.


tl;dr​

These for MC's second key:

Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 1 and 2; Aspect Type 1, 2, 3, and 4). For Half-Annulled experts.

Nature type 1 & 2 + Aspect type 1 & 3 in their natural state, the rest if they go into nevasaññānāsaññāyatana or if they decide not to use nevasaññānāsaññāyatana and go beyond it themselves.

Transduality (Type 1, possibly 2)

Accepted:​



Agree: (6) Planck69, Zaratthustra, Orioreeem, Milly_Rocking_Bandit, Elizhaa, ActuallySpaceMan​

Neutral:​

Disagree:​

 
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The addition makes sense to me. From what I can gather, it would be Transduality (Type 2) and Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 2 Aspect Types 1, 2, 3 and 4) for Nevasanna.

And if the reality that's little more than a dream statement applies to the God World as well, then wouldn't the tiering be "Low 1-C, possibly High 1-C" or even 1-A since he sees reality as a whole as a dream as opposed to just being above the 8-dimensional realm or God World?
 
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The series treats the God World as the ultimate world and from the perspective of the God World and it's inhabitants, nevasaññānāsaññāyatana doesn't exist, yet does at the same time. And from nevasaññānāsaññāyatana's perspective, reality may as well be a dream.

Not really sure what that grants.
 
Planck69 said:
The addition makes sense to me. From what I can gather, it would beTransduality (Type 2) and Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 2 Aspect Types 1,2,3 and 4) for Nevasanna.

And if the reality that's little more than a dream statement applies to the God World as well, then wouldn't the tiering be "Low 1-C, possibly High 1-C" or even 1-A since he sees reality as a whole as a dream as opposed to just being above the 8-dimensional realm or God World?
Click to expand...
I thought seeing something as a dream is just higher dimensional existence
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
I thought seeing something as a dream is just higher dimensional existence
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Depends on context. If one sees some upper dimensional plane as fiction then he's one step higher. If they see that dimensional hierarchy in its entirety as fiction then any extension made to it would still be equally fictional to that being, making them 1-A.
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
Which dimensional hierarchy and what does "hierarchy" mean here
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Qualitatively superior levels of existence to lower ones. It can be higher dimensions, planes that view lower ones as fiction, a recursion of universe-atoms etc.
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
Seeing a higher dimension as fiction = one step higher but seeing all dimensions as fiction = 1-A?
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A bit of a simplification. Viewing a plane of existence or large dimensional structure as fiction means being one level of existence higher than that. Seeing the totality of what holds those levels of existence as fiction allows for a good argument for 1-A.
 
I guess I could see it being possibly 1-A.

But then again, I've never argued for 1-A for any series.
 
Agree with what Planck said.

As always the everything is long in xianxian, even single world (good one buddhism).
 
Abilities are straightforward but tiering wise, @Muchacho_mrm is it possible to compile a blog of sorts for Will and all we know about it? Would be good if it was all laid out for review.
 

Rough Draft​

What is the will? Similar to the will of you and I, but given form.

It is both referred to as the psyche and will (used interchangeably). The level of your will directly translates to your level of enlightenment and semi-transcendent nature. Regarding the latter, it is due the inaccessible nature of the level above one's own.

The levels of will convergence are as follows:
  • Normal.
  • Stupendous.
  • Destabilizing.
  • Terrifying.
  • Paramount.
  • Unbounded.
  • Annulled.

We occasionally get description of the differences between levels. For example, the analogy used regarding the difference between Stupendous and Destabilizing is to make clear the powerless nature of the level below. Another example is regarding the Paramount and all the levels below, which is a more dreadful disparity between levels. Although it's looks as though there are only 7 levels, they each have 4 levels within; low, mid, peak and half-[insert next level name]. They're also further divided by psychic levels defined by numerals. However in the Half-Annulled, this hierarchy is nulled.

Although what enlightenment is required is mostly left to the reader's imagination, we do see the steps. For example, the MC used a technique that splits someone into two resulting in an existence that cannot be defined as neither evil nor good. He used this to reach the Paramount level.

At a certain level, a cultivator can simply exist as just their will. Just as abstract as the will of you but in an observable form. Past that level, even with the loss of one's body, soul (soul also functions as the mind) and everything else, as long as the will remains, recreating the loss aspects of your existence is possible. For example the MC had that unfortunate experience but recreated it all.

What abilities does the will grant?


Why even develop the will?
  • Well, aside from the rules of the jungle type setting, each level comes with it's own set of capabilities, however, none like the annulled. Past the peak of the unbounded level is the half-annulled state of being. Aside from the NEP changes, it is within this level that one can possibly attain the Annulled.

What is the Annulled level?
  • It is a level of existence transcendent of all levels of reality, including the God World. Inaccessible to the those beneath it. (I'll elaborate below)


It is referred to as a state of nothing, which would in fact be transcendent and incomprehensible not only to the voids, nevasaññānāsaññāyatana and even compared to states in the lower realms that lack nothingness itself.

On the cusp of becoming annulled, the Half-Annulled stage, the God World will find it hard to support your level of existence. Your options being to either ascend to a higher plane of existence or just chill. The former is hard, as there have been numerous Half-Annulled experts but none have ever attained the Annulled level.

No one actually knew how strong the Annulled level was. Supposedly, it could be used to transcend the limits of the god world and reach a state that was heretofore unknown.

Was there another world beyond the god world? No one knew for sure, although the general belief was that there was no such a world, and the god world was the ultimate world among all the other worlds that existed.
Click to expand...
As stated above, the God World is the ultimate world, with no one having any knowledge if there exists a world above it. As I've already stated before in my first reply to this thread, the God World is the ultimate world, however, it sees nevasaññānāsaññāyatana as both real not unreal:
“Marquis Three Realms?” Yang Qi knew that in the god world, the ‘three realms’ were different than what people generally viewed the three realms to be. Normally, those three realms were the impure lands, immortal worlds, and god world. But in the god realm, things were different. The three realms referred to: the true realm; the illusory realm; and the realm that was neither true nor illusory. They were three realms that essentially represented reality, imagination, and Nevasaññānāsaññāyatana, that which was neither perception nor non-perception.
Click to expand...

However, like in OP, from nevasaññānāsaññāyatana's viewpoint, all of reality may as well be a dream.
EOTMlp6.png

So it's essentially another liminal state of being. If I said it's r>f and in an alternate universe I said it isn't, both would be correct.



How do you reach the Annulled level?

The general theory is to reach the level of being able to destroy it all to transcend:
The god world represents everything. So if it's gone, there is Nothing. The god world is the heart of the many heavens, and in fact, is the most paramount of all worlds. There’s no other world that surpasses it. Therefore, the only way to reach the Annulled level of will convergence is to destroy the god world. To create the true and real world, which is a world of Nothing. If someone can reach the Annulled level and transcend by destroying the god world, humanity can break through the ultimate limits
Click to expand...
However, this was later proven false by how even after Proud Heaven took the multiverse known as the God World and absorbed it, he still hadn't reached the Annulled level. Why? Because you need the Great Necropolis to do so:
“Everyone in the Deathless Heaven Empire, listen to me. Do you know why no true Annulled expert has ever existed in this world? It’s because the resources of the god world aren’t enough to push anyone to that level. The most it can handle is half-Annulled. But I can go beyond that. I have a way to reach the true Annulled level. And it's all because of the Great Necropolis. The Great Necropolis is designed to bury, and being buried is being Annulled. My power is such that neither the essence of the god world nor Yang Qi can match me. I'm going to truly transcend, and all of you are going to die!”
Click to expand...
In the end, the MC, after defeating Proud Heaven, took the Great Necropolis and ascended with his people. The new Gods that came into existence after his ascension, similar to how he and other Gods theorised that there existed a higher world than the God World, the new Gods did the same. However, he is not only transcendent but completely inaccessible for them.

Additionally, the NEP of Half-Annulled extends to everything about them. As the process was described as this for Proud Heaven:

Then, his power fluctuations vanished. His godhood vanished. His body vanished. Everything about him was becoming annulled. This was the half-Annulled level. Proud Heaven’s plan had succeeded.
Click to expand...
 
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A small correction. The lower world is the 8-dimensional multiverse. The God World sees it as illusory and nonexistent so calling 9-dimensional is a bit misleading since it's level isn't defined by dimensions but by existing as a higher state of being.
 
Also, MC exists outside of fate, even before he became whole, he sensed his constitution that surpassed fate and later, Yang Voidprime backs up this statement as he talks about the origin of fateless. But even then, only the annulled can truly escape fate.

I guess resistance to concept (fate) manipulation for the Annulled? Since existing outside of fate nor surpassing it, isn't enough for resistance to conceptual manipulation resistance, similar to how those who lack a soul, doesn't mean they escape the concept being applied to them through conceptual manipulation. But the Annulled are different.

Lastly, there is a long list of what is perceptive and what is not. Karma being on the side of what can be perceived
 
Orioreeem said:
Type 5 is already under type 2 Transduality so seems kinda redundant.
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Not really, I think it is better to add all the abilities if the characters qualify; many tier 0 pages were barebone a few years for redundancy reasons while only having Questionable Omnipotence, Omniscience, and Omnipresent.

I am fine with what Planck agree.
 
Tiering-wise it is still "Low 1-C, possibly High 1-C" However, it is possible to make a reasonable argument for a higher tier, based on the nature of nevasaññānāsaññāyatana. It's transcendence over reality, rather than any specific layer of it, due to it's fundamental nature; like I've pointed it out, it's liminal, in that the God World views it as neither real nor unreal.

Planck69, I've posted some evidence for High 1-C Annulled in the draft for will above. Doesn't this imply that the Annulled exist a layer or two above nevasaññānāsaññāyatana:
He was in a state that surpassed even Nevasaññānāsaññāyatana, yet wasn’t the Annulled level.
Click to expand...
Meaning Giga nevasaññānāsaññāyatana for the Annulled is not only their natural state, wouldn't this + what I posted for the Annulled be enough for Low 1-C, possibly High 1-C for MC's third key, the Annulled.
 
So what has been accepted here in summary?
 
Antvasima said:
So what has been accepted here in summary?
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Accepted:



I don't think there is any problem with Nature type 1 and Aspect 1 & 3 for the natural state of Half-Annulled but I'm not sure if mods agree. Other than that, tier change is possibly on the table but it's safe to say the original purpose is served.

Edit: I guess a possibly Nature type 2 is okay too for their natural state, since their minds encompass the gap between what is real and what is not (not sure if Nature type 2 is only for physical existence)
 
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Muchacho_mrm said:
Accepted:



I don't think there is any problem with Nature type 1 and Aspect 1 & 3 for the natural state of Half-Annulled but I'm not sure if mods agree. Other than that, tier change is possibly on the table but it's safe to say the original purpose is served.

Edit: I guess a possibly Nature type 2 is okay too for their natural state, since their minds encompass the gap between what is real and what is not (not sure if Nature type 2 is only for physical existence)
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@Elizhaa @Planck69 @Zaratthustra

Is this fine with you?
 
Fine for me. I'm mostly just waiting to see what we decide for tiering if it needs to change at all.
 
The profile that needs unlocking is this one. The format will be:


For tiering, I've already presented enough evidence. So far there isn't any argument against Nevasaññānāsaññāyatana's liminal transcendence over reality and the Annulled transcending everything in the series. If it's because I haven't presented a convincing argument, then I throw my hands up in defeat.
 
Thank you for helping out, Elizhaa.
 
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Rather than make a new thread, I think I should have what I posted above resolved, if possible.

Similar to lacking a soul, MC simply lacks fate on any level of reality in the series. His fateless nature has been stated over a dozen times, some examples:

Because Yang Qi is a person who exists outside of fate.
Click to expand...
He tried to perform more divinations, but none of them actually worked. It was as if the subject of his search existed outside of fate itself.

'A Fateless One? I can’t believe there’s one here! But who is it?’
Click to expand...
It’s almost like the Mahātmā Jade is similar to you, in that it exists outside of fate. It’s almost like it's a Fateless One.
Click to expand...
Upon sensing his fateless constitution, he sensed that it surpassed fate itself:
An immense aura rushed through him and he could sense something that surpassed the power of fate, something that was illusory and unreal, but at the same time very true and real.

‘It’s my constitution as a Fateless One,’ he realized.
Click to expand...
And this is literal. As his statement is backed up by another character who is more knowledgeable. However, even despite existing outside it and surpassing it, only the Annulled can escape fate:

As the fateless energy suffused him, his status as a Fateless One grew whole. And as he was blessed, the Annulled level reached out, beckoning toward him. Never had he experienced anything like this, in which he had such deep enlightenment of the terror of fate, and the majesty of the Annulled level.

Only by being Annulled could one truly be free from the fetters of fate, and become invincible.
Click to expand...
So despite fate itself not even applying to himself and even surpassing it at all levels of reality...He still felt awed by how the Annulled surpass his fateless nature. Below are two options for staff and users. Either works.


Acausality type 5 for the Annulled.​

Agree: Elizhaa, Planck69​

Disagree:​


Or Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation (Fate) for the Annulled.​

Agree:​

Disagree:​

 
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Thank you for the evaluations. That is probably fine then.
 
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