Rust, Dust & Determination | Undyne vs. Doomguy

[Yakushimi]

Actually, yes she does "passively" paralyze her opponent the moment she enters Undying, as shown in the Genocide Route. From the start of the battle, you're instantly in Green Mode and have to defend yourself with the spear Undyne gives you (I don't have an ounce of a clue as to why she would, but we'll overlook that). Her Danmaku is, to say the least, one of the trickier ones to evade in Undertale, especially once reverse spears get thrown into the equation. Even in the best of circumstances, Doomguy wouldn't be expecting flurries upon flurries of spears to be making a beeline towards him all at once, nor would he expect the reverse spears.

 

[Fupdumpthegump]

Well Danmaku, but he has dealt with many projectiles coming at him at once.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

"Passively Paralyzes" 1. No, she doesn't. 2. She throws him a spear. He defends himself.

Here (0:26) Frisk's Soul is Red and not Paralyzed, as soon as she turns Undying,his Soul Turns Green,a.k.a Paralyzed

Where in her normal Battle she always needs to hit you with an attack that turns you Green

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Like who? Undyne can literally cause rainstorms of energy spears that she can shoot without getting tired.

I was searching through the profiles to double check.

To specify, I'll concede to the fact that no singular opponent beats Undyne's Danmaku. However, Doomguy can dodge hordes of homing rockets from enemies coming at him from every angle. Furthermore, his resistance to soul manipulation and 9-A armor can allow him to take hits.


I also like how no one has mentioned that if Undyne does start winning, Doomguy can just hit her with an 8-B weapon. Or use the Berserk Sphere and punch her into a splatter in the wall. None of that is restricted here.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Wait, retract that. This Doomguy doesn't resist soul manipulation.

 

[Theglassman12]

Ok, and you do know that he has to deal with incoming danmaku damage while being unable to move too right?

As for the splatter on the wall, her determination can potentially bring her back from that given she can stop herself from turning into dust.

 

[Abstractions]

Green Mode does not last forever and Undyne will provide him with a spear to block, any other instance requires her to strike him for it, given Doomguy's slight speed advantage this won't be incredibly simple.

Spheres are also at play here, meaning Doomguy can go 8-B with Berserk for a period of time.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Which he would be given a spear to deal with it.

Said Determination failed after continually getting beat down by a 9-A. An 8-B punch should work just fine.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Abstraction giving him a spear to block doesn't mean he can block every single shot thrown at him. Especially when she throws a lot at him and some are reverse shots.

 

[Abstractions]

Which he would be given a spear to deal with it.

Said Determination failed after continually getting beat down by a 9-A. An 8-B punch should work just fine.

It never actually failed Undyne, she only died because her body could no longer sustain it in both instances, in Neutral she could repeatedly take punishment even after dying, she just got sluggish every time she was hit.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Wright a 9-A that died countless times before finally winning against her via cheating. Doomguy doesn't have the luxury of seeing his mistakes and undoing it the next time

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Undyne in her Undying form can still one-shot him even with his 9-A Armor, she's stronger than Genocide Frisk in LV 10, who even in LV 4 can one shot Toriel, who scales massively above the 9-A feat

Her determination can let her fight even with 0 HP, a.k.a even if she's dead, she can still attack until her body melts

 

[The_Wright_Way]

@Wright a 9-A that died countless times before finally winning against her via cheating. Doomguy doesn't have the luxury of seeing his mistakes and undoing it the next time

Is it ever canonically confirmed either way how many times Frisk dies against an enemy?

Regardless, saud 9-A wasn't as skilled an experienced as Doomguy and didn't have 8-B weapons/amps to fall back on.

 

[Abstractions]

Her determination can let her fight even with 0 HP, a.k.a even if she's dead, she can still attack until her body melts

Her attacks get more sluggish and slow in this instance, so dodging becomes much easier.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Undyne in her Undying form can still one-shot him even with his 9-A Armor, she's stronger than Genocide Frisk in LV 10, who even in LV 4 can one shot Toriel, who scales massively above the 9-A feat

Her determination can let her fight even with 0 HP, a.k.a even if she's dead, she can still attack until her body melts

Which, again, is because of weakness to killing intent according to the profiles.

I mean, Doomguy can just keep punching her with 8-B hits until she stays down. Her determination has limits and I'm willing to bet getting battered by an 8-B reaches them.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

We know Frisk died at least once

 

[Theglassman12]

@Wright Sans pointed out in his boss fight how there's constant jumps in the space time continuum where you're reloading save points to win, and the fact that Frisk points out to Asgore how many times he died to Asgore, or Sans mocking you for how many times you died to him, so yes they are canon.

He had experience via cheating, that's his main thing that he can do and it took him a while for him to kill Undyne, and again Determination can help her get back from an 8-B attack since she regenerated from turning into dust.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Wright killing intent from a strong soul with a monster that isn't willing to fight. You need all 3 of these checked off for the oneshot to happen.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

@Wright killing intent from a strong soul with a monster that isn't willing to fight. You need all 3 of these checked off for the oneshot to happen.

That's not my point. My point is that Genocude Frisk's AP isn't any higher than normal against non-monsters, thanks to the circumstances of monsters' durability.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

@Wright Sans pointed out in his boss fight how there's constant jumps in the space time continuum where you're reloading save points to win, and the fact that Frisk points out to Asgore how many times he died to Asgore, or Sans mocking you for how many times you died to him, so yes they are canon.

He had experience via cheating, that's his main thing that he can do and it took him a while for him to kill Undyne, and again Determination can help her get back from an 8-B attack since she regenerated from turning into dust.

Said constant jumps can just as easily refer to you restarting to begin a new run, something most players will have done a few times before starting a Genocide Run. Frisk only does that if you actually die in gameplay. We're never given an official number for how many times it takes Frisk to beat an opponent.

 

[Theglassman12]

I know, I'm just clarifying the weakness part because everyone here keeps assuming it's only killing intent that causes the oneshot when it's a lot more than that.

 

[Yakushimi]

I knew from the get-go. I even pointed it out in my reply.

 

[Moritzva]

One-shotting across verses isn't equalized, Undyne can't one-shot.

What were the votes even based off of? Danmaku isn't going to win on it's own, Doomguy is just as skilled if not monstrously more, and soul manip. isn't really anything to write home about. Literally every FRA off of the first vote should be removed, and only the people who actually made arguments since then should be counted.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

That's not my point. My point is that Genocude Frisk's AP isn't any higher than normal against non-monsters, thanks to the circumstances of monsters' durability.

Muffet and The Royal Guards weren't willing to fight Frisk in the genocide route?

Toriel was willing to fight Frisk in all routes, why wouldn't she be in the Genocide Route?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Wright that doesn't change the fact that his powers is stated to be canon, doing a true reset only proves my point since that's also pointed out. There's nothing to suggest he didn't die at all, otherwise his SAVE and LOAD powers wouldn't have been something mentioned a lot by numerous characters.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

True, and my point never was that the "powers weren't canon" or anything. My point was we have no indication how much Frisk relied on it during fights. It's inaccurate to say Frisk had to continually respawn against Undyne because we simply have no way of knowing if that's true.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

We know he died at least once cause Frisk doesn't waste Time to listen to what Monster Kid says and Tricks him

 

[Abstractions]

One-shotting across verses isn't equalized, Undyne can't one-shot.

What were the votes even based off of? Danmaku isn't going to win on it's own, Doomguy is just as skilled if not monstrously more, and soul manip. isn't really anything to write home about. Literally every FRA off of the first vote should be removed, and only the people who actually made arguments since then should be counted.

Undyne is naturally 4x stronger, IIRC.

Removing FRAs off starting arguments brings this down to 3-3.

 

[Moritzva]

One-shotting across verses isn't equalized, Undyne can't one-shot.

What were the votes even based off of? Danmaku isn't going to win on it's own, Doomguy is just as skilled if not monstrously more, and soul manip. isn't really anything to write home about. Literally every FRA off of the first vote should be removed, and only the people who actually made arguments since then should be counted.

Undyne is naturally 4x stronger, IIRC.
Removing FRAs off starting arguments brings this down to 3-3.

So, 4x AP advantage for Undyne. Not enough for her to one-shot, but more importantly, how does Doomguy one-shot her..? She's weak to violence, yes, but the CRT for 'Tier 10 against emotions' hasn't exactly gone through.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

She's also pretty skilled, she could defeat Asgore in combat, who was able to dodge all of Undyne's attacks before her training he also lead the war between Humans and Monsters and Is Thousands of years old

 

[Abstractions]

So, 4x AP advantage for Undyne. Not enough for her to one-shot, but more importantly, how does Doomguy one-shot her..? She's weak to violence, yes, but the CRT for 'Tier 10 against emotions' hasn't exactly gone through.

I never stated either could one-shot, but, the only character here that could is Doomguy when tapping into Berserk or with the BFG, but one can be countered by Green Mode and the other is a last resort.

 

[RinneItachi]

A lot's happened since I first talked, I just finished catching up. Doomguy may be skilled enough to successfully avoid her Danmaku to some extent, but it shouldn't be shrugged off regardless, especially since it's still significantly different than anything he's ever seen before. Killing intent will help him out, but since this is bound to basically be a battle of attrition due to Determination sauce, I don't think it's even that relevant how much damage he can do, unless he has a potential one shot, even for her Undying form. 4x AP advantage for base or Undying? Either way, while it's not enough to one shot, that's a huge advantage. She would have dozens of Danmaku, soul based, patterned attacks, only several of which would need to land before Doomguy is down. I think it's giving him too much credit to say he could actually avoid them all. Also I'm fine with removing the votes for my first one.

 

[Abstractions]

She's also pretty skilled, she could defeat Asgore in combat, who was able to dodge all of Undyne's attacks before her training he also lead the war between Humans and Monsters and Is Thousands of years old

This is ignoring that she was only able to do it once and Asgore wasn't at his peak, he has a guilty conscience and Undyne remarked that it's likely he wanted to be beaten.

4x AP advantage for base or Undying?

Base.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

She's also pretty skilled, she could defeat Asgore in combat, who was able to dodge all of Undyne's attacks before her training he also lead the war between Humans and Monsters and Is Thousands of years old

We don't know how undodgable Undyne's attacks were before training, the monsters got curbstomped during the war, so that's not a very solid feat, and being really old alone isn't worth much.

 

[Lord_JJJ]

Undyne is more than just 4 times stronger, she has received the explosion of the house easily and without any scratch in addition to the fact that Undyne has a much greater attack than her defense
If Doom Gay's attacked by spear Danmaku he will killed

and Undyne FRA

 

[Moritzva]

How likely is he to use the BFG?

 

[RinneItachi]

Since it says in character, I could see him using it as a last resort.

In other words, fairly likely once he realizes he's losing badly. Edit: I would also see him using it after Berserk.

 

[Abstractions]

Undyne is more than just 4 times stronger, she has received the explosion of the house easily and without any scratch in addition to the fact that Undyne has a much greater attack than her defense If Doom Gay's attacked by spear Danmaku he will kill him

and Undyne FRA

Counted for now.

 

[Theuser789]

Undyne FRA

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Lookng at both sides, it appears Undyne seems to have more odds going for them. Doomguy might have taking on Cyberdemon, an 8-B foe with two Railguns and is a genius strategist. But Undyne seems to overall have more combat variety that most of the enemies Classic Doomguy fights.