Rule Violation Reports (New forum)

[Duedate8898]

I think giving temp ban to Fuji would be in order for her previous transgressions and perma for Mal.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I think giving temp ban to Fuji would be in order for her previous transgressions and perma for Mal.

I'd be fine with this, though I'd be in favor of a longer ban than the typical 1-2 month affair, given that her primary interaction with the wiki seems to be Touhou, and her topic ban for that meant little.

I'd go for 4 months, were it left to me.

 

[The_Impress]

Okay, just gonna say this bluntly.

Wiki can only be so forgiving of your outbursts, we have banned users, even immensely productive or nice ones, off the wiki because they couldn't control their emotions in strenuous situations. Every verse in existence has bull-headed supporters, Malmotek was literally doing the exact same things in Marvel threads, exact same trashy language, and there was a single report off it in total, the one resolved in 10 replies.

At some point, genuinely, realize, the level of nonsense achieved here is a collaborative effort, and if you feel you are too susceptible to outbursts, guess what? You can not debate there. This is a hobby, not actual life-crucial debate. We will always prioritize good users, over good supporters.

Y'all spamming the RVR with a new report every damn week is an offense for both.

Only one way to go, in my eyes. I'd disagree with a permanent topic ban out of principal but if it is the majority vote I will acquiesce.

Meh I just think actual bans are too hard for Fuji if it's literally just one exact scenario on a constant loop for her at least, Malmotek isn't exacly fun to argue to begin with.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Actually both of them are the problem and some other Touhou supporters who can’t accept that people can have differing opinions
I read some of the Touhou threads and most times Mal is usually the only opposition to things that actually seems Iffy like calling them out on their inconsistencies and how they took things out of context e.t.c. And the moment he does that we will have like 3 users including Fuji dishing it out to him, we have sentences like “he has started again” e.t.c. and then that’s where the passive-aggressive starts and constant bickering. And yes while Mal can be said to be a big part others are too cause it’s not easy to be the only knowledgeable member who always calls out other supporters on things they are doing wrong
So frankly a perm thread ban for both of them and a ban for Fuji and Mal(a longer one for Mal) is the solution here. It makes no sense to thread ban one and not ban the other as I can say both of them are the most knowledgeable members of the verse.

Also this time if they are thread banned they should not be allowed to use a proxy as reading through those Touhou threads they used proxies to still speak on the subject after they were banned and also were passive-aggressive to one another

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Meh I just think actual bans are too hard for Fuji if it's literally just one exact scenario on a constant loop for her at least, Malmotek isn't exacly fun to argue to begin with.

Fair enough. I don't agree still, but I think it's fair you feel that way. A topic ban seems easily avoidable (e.g., wait awhile and then post again and hope a staff member who knows about it doesn't see), and even if it were broken down the line, I feel it would simply be forgiven with much present context forgotten.

 

[Vietthai96]

Hmmmm, to be honest, like Pain_to12 said, both side are the problem. While i agree Malomtek always start the problem first, but it is the result of only him is the one who stood and debated against the contents of the thread, all other Touhou supporters mostly come in and say agree with this agree with that, and when Mal come in and disagree with the contents of the thread, all others turn to him, created as situation in which 1 vesus all others, in turn made Mal called them hiveminded most of the time. So to be fair, both parties is the problem. And if i'm remember correctly, Pain was also a victime of this, i saw him disagree with some, and some Touhou supporters immediately have some kind of passive-aggressive comment at him.
So i agree that both side need punishment

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I really wanna know what I have done to deserve this outside of responding to Malomtek. Because as it stands now, it looks like he's getting permabanned. So quite literally the only source of issues regarding me will be a non-factor going forward. Literally no other user here has had a personal issue with me to the point of wanting me removed from a thread, let alone banned; So what, exactly, would banning me accomplish? Who does this benefit? Because the only thing I would have to reflect on is my interactions with a single user who wouldn't even be on the wiki anymore.

Really, it seems like people are quick to jump on the idea of a ban for no reason other than 'I just want to get this the **** over with already'. It's just ignoring the entire context of the issue at large.

 

[Antvasima]

Pain_to12 makes good points above regarding that Malomtek is recurrently in a position of being the only knowledgeable member about Touhou who is questioning upgrades, and has had to endure lots of snide comments in sum total from the other Touhou fans because of this, which I know myself can be very frustrating to deal with, so responding alone to all of that can give the false impression that one is the worse agitator.

In addition, his past history is just a thread ban and a 3 weeks block, if I remember correctly. Instantly going from there to a permanent ban is far too severe, and the issue is that he has not actually done anything particularly severely against our rules, just been an ongoing mild nuisance.

I think that it is a shame that Malomtek seems to be oversensitive, impatient, and passive-aggressive, as having knowledgeable voices that question potentially fan-driven upgrades is a valuable resource for us.

I also think that it would be a big shame to waste Fujiwara's knowledge about Touhou by kicking her out of the discussions and potentially even banning her. Especially as, much like Malomtek, she has not actually done anything bad enough for a ban as far as I am aware. It is more about apparently being the inofficial leader for the Touhou revisions, and as such being a leading part in the hostility or annoyance towards Malomtek as well.

The problem is that there is a built-up level of annoyance and hostility from both sides, rather than making a great effort to get along and discuss these issues in normal reasonable manners. Malomtek in particular seems to consider himself the only wronged party here, which is not true, even given the pile-ons. He has to make a sincere effort to change his behaviour as well. He has done so to a degree, but not enough as of yet. I would recommend listening to meditation music to calm down before he enters these types of discussions.

The quality and reliability of the Touhou verse will likely greatly suffer if we remove either of them, much less both, even though Fujiwara will likely be able to launch revisions via other members, and this will naturally still turn them very one-sided with much less questioning of their validity.

Given all of the above, I think that another time-out/topic ban to seriously reconsider both of their behaviours is likely the least bad solution here. They will then have to make a serious effort to solve their differences and apologise via a private PM conversation in this forum, and can together (not separately) ask us to lift the topic ban after this has been thoroughly handled by both of them during a period spanning from now until 1 to 3 months later, or however long it takes for them to try to be adult about this.

They absolutely have to be reasonable about this issue, and we should not be overly draconian just because we find some members annoying, if their offences are not actually grave enough in themselves. However, if they are unable to make up and genuinely change their behaviour in this uninterrupted private manner, I think that we will unfortunately have to use harsher measures to deal with their antagonism.

 

[Antvasima]

As for misgendering, what people have to understand is that this is a big community, with several hundred members to barely keep track of. None of whom you see the real faces of (as it should be of course, due to security issues), and a large part of whom recurrently change their avatar images, and do not use ones that reflect their preferred gender identities.

Given this in combination with all of the tasks that we all constantly have to do, both here and in real life, it is nearly impossible to properly keep track of everybody's preferred pronouns, and using a neutral "they" and "themselves" towards most of our members recurrently feels unnatural in relation to our real life speech patterns, so I myself have a bad old Internet habit of just habitually using "he" and "him" towards everybody that I do not explicitly remember have female gender identities. I am trying to remember to get rid of it during interactions, but ingrained speech habits are very hard to get rid of, and I have a bad people memory.

In any case, this is mostly a friendly and respectful community, so I think that in over 95% of the cases where these types of errors happen, no harm was genuinely meant, so I hope that we can all try to be forgiving in this regard, and not take it as a personal insult unless it was blatantly malicious.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

First of all, in regards to people questioning or being against Touhou upgrades, Mal is certainly not alone in that regard. Promestein, Saikou, Eficiente, LordGriffin, and numerous other members have brought up their own issues with various revisions, and they will likely continue to do so. Mal isn't the sole vanguard against bad Touhou stats like you and Pain make him out to be, and there will always be someone else there to keep us in check regardless of what happens to him. Hell, given most people have a tendency to avoid Touhou threads due to the toxicity present, if that toxicity were removed, we'd likely end up with a lot more people coming in and questioning the revisions.

Hell, Mal was banned for the entirety of two major verse-wide revisions and yet both of those received considerable backlash, with even being fully rejected. He is not, and never will be, the only person opposing this verse.

I also think that it would be a big shame to waste Fujiwara's knowledge about Touhou by kicking her out of the discussions and potentially even banning her. Especially as, much like Malomtek, she has not actually done anything bad enough for a ban as far as I am aware. It is more about apparently being the inofficial leader for the Touhou revisions, and as such being a leading part in the hostility or annoyance towards Malomtek as well.

Look, as flattering as it is to be seen as 'leading' the Touhou revisions, that simply isn't true and it kinda undermines the hard work other people do. I do work hard on this verse, that much is true, but that does not mean I control or direct that actions of other members. I am not responsible for their own personal opinions towards Mal, nor should I be punished for their words and actions against him. I have literally no authority over what they do.

Given all of the above, I think that another time-out/topic ban to seriously reconsider both of their behaviours is likely the least bad solution here. They will then have to make a serious effort to solve their differences and apologise via a private PM conversation here, and can together (not separately) ask us to lift the thread ban after this has been thoroughly handled by both of them during a period spanning from now until 1 to 3 months from now. However long it takes for them to try to be adulst about this.

Why does it have to be both of us, though? I don't have problems with other members, and you can go back into literally any Touhou thread and see that this is the case; Even with people I vehemently disagree with, I'm able to at least discuss things calmly and come to a resolution, or at the very least apologize if I accidentally say something out of line.

But I'm assuming you've read the above posts, and seen testimonials from Impress as well as several other users (Angelzewolf, OverlordDonnelly, and KirbonicPikmin for example). From that, is it not clear that Mal is the source of aggression here? If I have no problems with other users, and Mal is likely getting banned anyways (as several staff members are in favor of doing), then what purpose does banning me serve?

As for misgendering, what people have to understand is that this is a big community, with several hundred members to barely keep track of. None of whom you see the real faces of (as it should be of course, due to security issues), and a large part of whom recurrently change their avatar images, and do not use ones that reflect their preferred gender identities.

Given this in combination with all of the tasks that we all constantly have to do, both here and in real life, it is nearly impossible to properly keep track of everybody's preferred pronouns, and using a neutral "they" and "themselves" towards most of our members recurrently feels unnatural in relation to our real life speech patterns, so I myself have a bad old Internet habit of just habitually using "he" and "him" towards everybody that I do not explicitly remember have a female gender identities. I am trying to remember to get rid of it during interactions, but ingrained speech habits are very hard to get rid of, and I have a fairly bad memory.

In any case, this is mostly a friendly and respectful community, so I think that in over 95% of the cases where these types of errors happen, no harm was genuinely meant, so I hope that we can all try to be forgiving in this regard, and not take it as a personal insult unless it was blatantly malicious.

As KT pointed out earlier, this really isn't about gender identity (the only mention of which was when I explained why I dislike the term 'bro'), the issue is that I asked Mal to stop calling me something and he continued to do it anyways for the sole purpose of spiting me. Gender really does not come into play here; It's just a matter of Mal going out of his way to get on someone's nerves for no reason.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I just suggest that the two of you should try to make up and get along via a prolonged uninterrupted private message conversation, and then together tell us when you have genuinely managed to resolve your differences, instead of trying to remove/silence each other.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Even if that goes perfectly and we end up no longer at each other's throats, there's still the issue that Mal has a laundry list of other users that have an issue with him. Sure, he and I are the primary two sources of conflict when we interact, but it feels a little disingenuous to just have him apologize to me and none of the other people he's antagonized.

Plus the issues are still gonna be present with him in Touhou threads; He does not provide any sort of scans or evidence, just argues on the basis of what he thinks is correct. It doesn't matter how polite you are, taking on a debate with that mindset is only gonna cause problems.

 

[Vietthai96]

He antagonized others, yes. But those others you speak of also antagonized him each time he make a comments, so both side including you and those others is not innocent either.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

There's an important distinction to be made, though. Basically nobody in that thread has ever gone out of their way to start problems with Mal; He's always the one coming in, acting passive-aggressively, and we generally respond passive-aggressively in kind.

Are responses like that reasonable? No, probably not, but at the end of the day you have to cut the problem off at the source.

Also hasn't Mal been reported twice for his interactions with people who've virtually never interacted with him? Like we really need to step back and look at how, regardless of the status or responses of who he interacts with, Mal keeps doing this shit.

 

[Antvasima]

Look, some of the other staff members here apparently want to ban both of you. If you are unwilling to try to work out your respective issues, including instructing Malomtek what he needs to do differently to stop provoking other Touhou fans, I will likely not be able to stop them. You both need to make a sincere effort to fix this problem.

You can ask the others for you to speak for them with Malomtek if necessary.

 

[Vietthai96]

We never say Mal is innocent for his behaviors, however it is not an excuse for you guys to do the same and antagonized him either. So no, stop brought out that he being reported to defend and cover up

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Look, some of the other staff members here apparently want to ban both of you. If you are unwilling to try to work out your respective issues, including instructing Malomtek what he needs to do differently to stop provoking other Touhou fans, I will likely not be able to stop them. You both need to make a sincere effort to fix this problem.

I mean quite a few staff members were also in support of a permaban for Mal (KT, Damage, Bambu, and Duedate, I believe?), and if that goes through then there's no real issue anymore. My only 'problem' is with a user who is likely getting permabanned anyways, so me getting banned as well seems completely unnecessary.

We never say Mal is innocent for his behaviors, however it is not an excuse for you guys to do the same and antagonized him either. So no, stop brought out that he being reported to defend and cover up

My point is that Mal continues to be a problem even when dealing with people who have never so much as spoken to him. There's just no way you can pin that on the other person and say they are equally guilty, or somehow provoked him into being aggressive.

 

[Vietthai96]

I mean quite a few staff members were also in support of a permaban for Mal (KT, Damage, Bambu, and Duedate, I believe?), and if that goes through then there's no real issue anymore. My only 'problem' is with a user who is likely getting permabanned anyways, so me getting banned as well seems completely unnecessary.


My point is that Mal continues to be a problem even when dealing with people who have never so much as spoken to him. There's just no way you can pin that on the other person and say they are equally guilty, or somehow provoked him into being aggressive.

1. Why it is unnecessary, you also repeatedly antagonized him despite being warned multiple times, not thing guarantee that you will not do the same in the futre if a new member also appear and start disagreeing
2. My point is that, stop bringing the thing that he has bad behavior with other to make you look good. No one defending him, so he acting aggressive in other threads in irrelevant here, as he getting his punishment anyway.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

1. Why it is unnecessary, you also repeatedly antagonized him despite being warned multiple times, not thing guarantee that you will not do the same in the futre if a new member also appear and start disagreeing

Bullshit. Go back through any, any Touhou thread and you will find plenty of non-Mal people disagreeing, yet I virtually never meet them with any sort of aggression. And when I do, it's usually on accident and I always apologize afterwards. Don't try and paint me as some sort of aggressor when I've managed to remain polite even when dealing with people who disagree with me.

Like please, show me a single time I was ever reported or otherwise admonished for disrespectful behavior to somebody besides Mal; And even in those very rare cases, you'll almost always find an apology not long after.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Just because you feel justified in being a jerk just because someone else is being a jerk, doesn't mean you should be a jerk.

Mellow out and act like an adult.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I uh

Never said that? Please don't put words in my mouth. I even said that I know those responses are unreasonable.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Fujiwara, let me remind you that the only reason you are in this situation is because you, and everyone else for that matter, keep allowing Malomtek to goad you on.

The fact that Malomtek constantly barrages the staff with complaints about your verbiage is proof enough of that.

Honestly, both of you need a time-out, as any kindergarten teacher would do when two children keep fighting each other.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I will say that @OverlordDonnelly has (over Discord) suggested a topic ban for Mal, specifically so as to give a chance for staff to actually observe he both of us act beyond each other; If I'm a repeated aggressor like people claim I am, then that'll show up in Touhou threads. If Mal is a repeated aggressor like others claim he is, that'll show up in whatever threads he decides to take part in. If I take up issue with anyone and everyone who disagrees with me like Vietthai says I do, then that'll be observed and I'll absolutely deserve whatever ban I get. But as it stands now, you're determining my behavior in general based on interactions with a single person, which is wrong.

Fujiwara, let me remind you that the only reason you are in this situation is because you, and everyone else for that matter, keep allowing Malomtek to goad you on.

The fact that Malomtek constantly barrages the staff with complaints about your verbiage is proof enough of that.

Honestly, both of you need a time-out, as any kindergarten teacher would do when two children keep fighting each other.

Then remove the source of that goading. This isn't that complicated. If a child is poking somebody with a stick, you remove the goddamn stick instead of trying to pin the issue on people who take issue with being poked.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Look, some of the other staff members here apparently want to ban both of you. If you are unwilling to try to work out your respective issues, including instructing Malomtek what he needs to do differently to stop provoking other Touhou fans, I will likely not be able to stop them. You both need to make a sincere effort to fix this problem.

Ant, I sort of had an idea/punishment or suggestion. If it isn't deemed suitable, I will drop it, because I know and understand that it sounds biased at first glance.

Why don't we start by very strictly warning Mokou, while indefinitely, but also temporarily, thread banning Mal from Touhou revisions?

Here's my reasoning why.

Staff are upset with both of their bickering and attitudes with one another, as we all know. However, if we let them do their own things on the wiki separately, it will let you observe their behavior in separate "vacuums" of sorts.

If Mal behaves well outside of Touhou revisions and doesn't show aggression and the like to non-Touhou members, he should be allowed to eventually rejoin the threads if staff see fit, because he would at least prove that he isn't as much of an aggressor as previously believed (and hell, I'll give anyone another chance if they show genuine improvement).

This would also mean that Mokou can prove if she can run threads and interact with staff and other members without showing aggression in the same way. HOWEVER, if she does act out of line after the severe warning and Mal isn't involved, then punish her however you see fit because then it clearly isn't only an issue between both of them.

Like, threadbanning Mal seems unfair I know, but he has had warnings outside of touhou threads before, which is why I thought we could see if it's a reoccurring problem outside of Touhou threads for Mal, and also see if it's a reoccurring problem towards any opposition of the verse for Mokou. Overall it might help us see either of them through a different lense?

I'm sorry if my idea was too convoluted or problematic. I can understand if there's some issues with it.

Edit: Oops. I was beaten to the punch.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Sigh.

Honestly, if it works then it can work.

Does any of the other staff think this is fine? I still wish to issue Fujiwara some kind of discipline for blatantly ignoring my warnings, but aside from that, this proposition seems good enough.

 

[Antvasima]

Ant, I sort of had an idea/punishment or suggestion. If it isn't deemed suitable, I will drop it, because I know and understand that it sounds biased at first glance.

Why don't we start by very strictly warning Mokou, while indefinitely, but also temporarily, thread banning Mal from Touhou revisions?

Here's my reasoning why.

Staff are upset with both of their bickering and attitudes with one another, as we all know. However, if we let them do their own things on the wiki separately, it will let you observe their behavior in separate "vacuums" of sorts.

If Mal behaves well outside of Touhou revisions and doesn't show aggression and the like to non-Touhou members, he should be allowed to eventually rejoin the threads if staff see fit, because he would at least prove that he isn't as much of an aggressor as previously believed (and hell, I'll give anyone another chance if they show genuine improvement).

This would also mean that Mokou can prove if she can run threads and interact with staff and other members without showing aggression in the same way. HOWEVER, if she does act out of line after the severe warning and Mal isn't involved, then punish her however you see fit because then it clearly isn't only an issue between both of them.

Like, threadbanning Mal seems unfair I know, but he has had warnings outside of touhou threads before, which is why I thought we could see if it's a reoccurring problem outside of Touhou threads for Mal, and also see if it's a reoccurring problem towards any opposition of the verse for Mokou. Overall it might help us see either of them through a different lense?

I'm sorry if my idea was too convoluted or problematic. I can understand if there's some issues with it.

Edit: Oops. I was beaten to the punch.

I would prefer if we either go with the solution that I mentioned earlier, or combine your solution with that both of them are obligated to try to straighten out their differences in private, however long that may take, and then tell us here after they have finished.

 

[The_Impress]

I'm just gonna say it, sorry to be blunt, no new points are being made by the non-staff, and they're impeding the decision-making process, so I'll just say, don't post any further on this topic unless you're staff.

This is bordering on incoherent and I'll straight up begin deleting user posts

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that Donnelly and Pain made worthwhile points at least.

 

[Malomtek]

Sigh.

Honestly, if it works then it can work.

Does any of the other staff think this is fine? I still wish to issue Fujiwara some kind of discipline for blatantly ignoring my warnings, but aside from that, this proposition seems good enough.

Well, I think that Donnelly and Pain made worthwhile points at least.

(if you're not staff, you shouldn't respond to this; we don't need more back-and-forths than we already have in this thread, and I feel this is too important to just be ignored)

I think the Touhou supporters are both heavily exaggerating their actual contributions to the threads, and heavily exaggerating my "damage" to them. This, of course, in blatant attempts to get a lighter punishment for YesMokou and a harsher punishment for me.

FujiwaraYesMokou has mentioned that other people besides me have commented in opposition in Touhou. However, as I mentioned a while back ("only non-staff member", yada yada yada), those other people are invariably either staff or former staff, and even then only infrequently, and practically only one in any given thread. Promestein herself typically only comes into Touhou threads after extensive prodding by both me and the Touhou supporters (I distinctly remember asking her in private to comment on many different threads), and Saikou is basically gone as far as the wiki is concerned. Saikou didn't even comment on the "Touhou Infinite Speed Bad" thread he himself made after a couple of posts, because he found it unacceptable that YesMokou and I were allowed to proxy. YesMokou even posted a screenshot of him saying this, given to her from someone who presumably knows Saikou.

And every time I see the Touhou supporters argue with a staff member or "prominent knowledgeable member", I rarely ever see any actual will to compromise or acquiesce or even really listen to what the staff member is saying. Instead, I typically see the exact same cycling, wagon-circling, back-and-forth, no-new-points-being-made behaviors between the Touhou supporters and staff members as between the Touhou supporters and me. If it's not multiple staff members shooting (and voting) down a certain argument (like in that "High 1-C Touhou thread"), the Touhou supporters will be happy to cycle with a single staff member for an eternity, until he puts his foot down (lightly, to avoid upsetting these people), or the staff leaves the thread for matters more pressing to him, at which point the Touhou supporters get the last word in, authoritatively declare his arguments "debunked" (I've really grown to dislike that word, the way they use it), and say the proposed upgrade should go through.

Hell, we've just seen this same "back-and-forth" argumentation between Touhou supporters and staff members in this thread, so we (yet again) have an example of this.

I've seen FujiwaraYesMokou get visibly upset because it appeared that Promestein was flatly negating and dismissing her arguments, even describing herself as "begging Promestein" to get a "real discussion" going. This same (or similar) "nagging" behavior is rather common against staff members whenever they in these threads, and there always seems to something else these people found somewhere to push an upgrade through, no matter how unrelated it really is to the argument just before it.

I've been contacted certain staff members in private, such as @DontTalkDT and @Eficiente, to see if they can contribute or insert their in into the threads. Those two specifically declined, the former because he, in his own words, "got too annoyed constantly having to fight the wank", the latter because he started playing Touhou games, and actually paused doing so because looking at the same "wank" made him feel uncomfortable. I honestly don't blame them. Having to constantly deal with circular arguments and "but what about this" tactics would be draining and aggravating for the best of us, let alone me. Although Eficiente has since commented on other Touhou threads, but that's honestly besides the point at this juncture.

I'm not just the odd one out here, this is a recurring problem in Touhou threads. These people are extremely agenda-driven, and their agenda should be very obvious at this point.

If there is to be punishment, let it be equal on all sides. If there is NOT to be punishment, let it be equal on all sides. I don't want any sort of bias or favoritism to color any staff judgements here.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that another time-out/topic ban to seriously reconsider both of their behaviours is likely the least bad solution here. They will then have to make a serious effort to solve their differences and apologise via a private PM conversation in this forum, and can together (not separately) ask us to lift the topic ban after this has been thoroughly handled by both of them during a period spanning from now until 1 to 3 months later, or however long it takes for them to try to be adult about this.

They absolutely have to be reasonable about this issue, and we should not be overly draconian just because we find some members annoying, if their offences are not actually grave enough in themselves. However, if they are unable to make up and genuinely change their behaviour in this uninterrupted private manner, I think that we will unfortunately have to use harsher measures to deal with their antagonism.

I just suggest that the two of you should try to make up and get along via a prolonged uninterrupted private message conversation, and then together tell us when you have genuinely managed to resolve your differences, instead of trying to remove/silence each other.

Look, some of the other staff members here apparently want to ban both of you. If you are unwilling to try to work out your respective issues, including instructing Malomtek what he needs to do differently to stop provoking other Touhou fans, I will likely not be able to stop them. You both need to make a sincere effort to fix this problem.

You can ask the others for you to speak for them with Malomtek if necessary.

Ant, I sort of had an idea/punishment or suggestion. If it isn't deemed suitable, I will drop it, because I know and understand that it sounds biased at first glance.

Why don't we start by very strictly warning Mokou, while indefinitely, but also temporarily, thread banning Mal from Touhou revisions?

Here's my reasoning why.

Staff are upset with both of their bickering and attitudes with one another, as we all know. However, if we let them do their own things on the wiki separately, it will let you observe their behavior in separate "vacuums" of sorts.

If Mal behaves well outside of Touhou revisions and doesn't show aggression and the like to non-Touhou members, he should be allowed to eventually rejoin the threads if staff see fit, because he would at least prove that he isn't as much of an aggressor as previously believed (and hell, I'll give anyone another chance if they show genuine improvement).

This would also mean that Mokou can prove if she can run threads and interact with staff and other members without showing aggression in the same way. HOWEVER, if she does act out of line after the severe warning and Mal isn't involved, then punish her however you see fit because then it clearly isn't only an issue between both of them.

Like, threadbanning Mal seems unfair I know, but he has had warnings outside of touhou threads before, which is why I thought we could see if it's a reoccurring problem outside of Touhou threads for Mal, and also see if it's a reoccurring problem towards any opposition of the verse for Mokou. Overall it might help us see either of them through a different lense?

I'm sorry if my idea was too convoluted or problematic. I can understand if there's some issues with it.

I would prefer if we either go with the solution that I mentioned earlier, or combine your solution with that both of them are obligated to try to straighten out their differences in private, however long that may take, and then tell us here after they have finished.

Again, @Malomtek and @FujiwaraYesMokou , I would extremely strongly suggest that you both commit to making a massive effort to clear up your respective problems with each other in private, in order to clean up your own mess, and then come back here and tell us after you have finished, even if it takes a few months to do so. Otherwise our other staff members will keep getting very tired of your neverending bickering and push for long bans. As such, I think that I am trying to find the least damaging solution here, both for the community and yourselves, but you need to be willing to cooperate with me in that regard.

 

[Malomtek]

Again, @Malomtek and @FujiwaraYesMokou , I would extremely strongly suggest that you both commit to making a massive effort to clear up your respective problems with each other in private, in order to clean up your own mess, and then come back here and tell us after you have finished, even if it takes a few months to do so. Otherwise our other staff members will keep getting very tired of your neverending bickering and push for long bans. As such, I think that I am trying to find the least damaging solution here, both for the community and yourselves, but you need to be willing to cooperate with me in that regard.

Okay then. I'll even start the PM chain myself. I'll even tag in a few staff members, just to make sure that no funny business goes on.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Alright then. Should probably remind Mal that regular users can't tag staff.

Out of curiosity, are we still going with OverlordDonnelly's suggestion, given that Starter and Ant have agreed to it?

 

[Antvasima]

I preferably want you both to handle this yourselves via your own PM thread, and try to make up without turning our staff further tired and annoyed by your antics. As I said, this is your mess, and I am giving you a chance to try to clean it up without outside interference.

 

[Malomtek]

I preferably want you both to handle this yourselves via your own PM thread, and try to make up without turning our staff further tired and annoyed by your antics. As I said, this is your mess, and I am giving you a chance to try to clean it up without outside interference.

I've made the PMs.

 

[Antvasima]

Alright then. Should probably remind Mal that regular users can't tag staff.

Regular members can involve more than one other person in PM threads, as far as I am aware.

Out of curiosity, are we still going with OverlordDonnelly's suggestion, given that Starter and Ant have agreed to it?

To me it seems better to topic-ban both of you from Touhou indefinitely until you have genuinely managed to get along sufficiently well.

Making hostile or passive-aggressive accusations against each other in private is not a good way to solve this btw. You need to take a serious look at what you can both personally do to avoid these types of situations in the future.

 

[Antvasima]

I've made the PMs.

That is not the way that I instructed you to handle this. Our staff are sick and tired of being bothered by this mess, so I removed all of us from your PM conversation. Again, you have to handle this mess on your own, without any grandstanding in front of other people.

 

[Malomtek]

Making hostile or passive-aggressive accusations against each other in private is not a good way to solve this btw. You need to take a serious look at what you can both personally do to avoid these types of situations in the future.

That is not the way that I instructed you to handle this. Our staff are sick and tired of being bothered by this mess, so I removed all of us from your PM conversation. Again, you have to handle this mess on your own, without any grandstanding in front of other people.

I'll try to be more "accommodating" in private then, and I put you and the other staff members in because I wanted to make sure that other staff were able to see what was going on if something about the conversation became "derailed" in any way, so that nobody ends up being falsely accused of anything (in this thread, again) without context.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we don't have the time and patience anymore to constantly mediate or act as arbitrators for you during what may be a few months of long PM discussions.

Again, do your absolute best to use interspection regarding what you can do in order to prevent future problems as well, and don't be hostile, unreasonable, or passive-aggressive while doing so. You both have to try to figure out what you can respectively do better in order to get along and properly collaborate in the future.

 

[Vietthai96]

I'll try to be more "accommodating" in private then, and I put you and the other staff members in because I wanted to make sure that other staff were able to see what was going on if something about the conversation became "derailed" in any way, so that nobody ends up being falsely accused of anything (in this thread, again) without context.

Can you two just be mature and solve the problem privately rather than just antagonizing each others out loud and then call every staffs come. You two already saw how tired people are, because of dealing with the problem you two caused. And you also should shape up your behaviors

 

[Starter_Pack]

I hope you two realize that bans are not something we take lightly. It is a last resort measure, when all other attempts at solving an issue fails.

I personally do not want to ban either of you, nor do I think most other staff do either. If you guys can settle your demons and learn to get along, then we should all be able to be satisfied with the results in the end.