Rohan Kishibe vs. Misogi Kumagawa

[Hit_The_Badass]

^

Lol it's like saying Rohan can acheive Stairway to Heaven cuz he can rewrite himself to be.


Still counted as prior knowledge in every battle sites.

 

[Unforgiven0815]

Just forget it lmao.

Still sucker for the WSJ. He makes several lines about it and was killed a class when they didn't took him about it seriously, only to erase the fact so that they're back again. (http://pm1.narvii.com/5983/d11e926207956597c6a44b9a4084ac4df06d9f74_hq.jpg)


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JoJo is a popularass manga, he should know it.

 

[IrMaXuS]

Emphasis on should. Even though it is most likely, it is not necessary for a WSJ freak to have read JoJo.

And is there proof that All Fiction can erase people without Kumagawa's will or thought? Because like Hit have said, Rohan will use Heaven's Door right away and knock Kumagawa unconscious. Afterwards, Rohan will read about All Fiction, erase it altogether and make Kumagawa powerless. But again, is All Fiction capable of erasing the fact that it's been erased? I dont think so, but someone might prove me wrong otherwise.

That scan where Kumagawa said if he was careless, All Fiction could erase the entire world does not justify All Fiction having a mind of its own or activate on its own. Kumagawa could've meant that if he carelessly thought about erasing the world, it would really happen. This is only one interpretation. Kumagawa's statement could be interpreted as All Fiction triggering on its own too.

With these many unknowns, I'm still inconclusive

 

[Unforgiven0815]

Not necessary, but having a good taste is and he has o ne(lmao).

It worked after his brain was crushed. It couldn't be his will or thought at this case. Heaven's Door has to get him first. The fight plays in a academy. 2 meters is enough to erase Rohan with a thought. Also, in a academy are rooms, so Kumagawa could erase his aura/presence and then just get Rohan.

Erase aura-->get Rohan with Booker Maker.

One hit with it and his body, spirit, technique, intellect, and talent fall to match Kumagawa.

 

[Hit_The_Badass]

Not necessary, but having a good taste is and he has o ne(lmao).

It worked after his brain was crushed. It couldn't be his will or thought at this case. Heaven's Door has to get him first. The fight plays in a academy. 2 meters is enough to erase Rohan with a thought. Also, in a academy are rooms, so Kumagawa could erase his aura/presence and then just get Rohan.

Erase aura-->get Rohan with Booker Maker.

One hit with it and his body, spirit, technique, intellect, and talent fall to match Kumagawa.

Well it is just a huge speculation that he might know Rohan. Maybe he just let at part 3. Maybe he only read Jotaro parts since he mentioned him. Unless specified by Kumagawa, it is just a speculation that he knows about Rohan.

We all know he is too cocky for his own good. He will try to tank Heaven's Door only to get all fiction erased.

This fight like i said relies heavily on personality too. And Kumagawa got the worst side for this match.

 

[Unforgiven0815]

Why should someone only read to part 3 of 8 parts, if it only gets better+part 5 which is the most popular one in Japan.

If it's a death battle, Kumagawa would tend to use it quickly. Again, a unconscious Kumagawa would still be able to use All Fiction, as it works after he dies.

 

[Hit_The_Badass]

^

Cuz everyone has different taste. Maybe he didn't like part 4 and stopped in mid or maybe he skipped becuz Jotaro wasn't main antagonist. There is no proof he chas read part 4.

Also it took a few moments for Kumagawa to came back from dead. It is enough for rohan to knock him out and erase All Fiction.

Also he himself stated in ch 71 that he came back from dead becuz he actually used All Fiction in a hurry. Thus proving All Fiction isn't automatic and is dependent on Kumagawa's reaction.

 

[Unforgiven0815]

Of course.

He chose to. He could've just erase the time it takes for him to be alive again, but he didn't since it should've been a shock to them. Also, he probably was earlier alive than we thought since we only could tell that he's alive again, when he "stood up".

You can't have a reaction when you're dead. It's automatic. It depends on. As said, Kumamagawa doesn't has full control of it. But it's automatically when he dies.

Or are you saying it isn't and therefore, he has a will and thoughts when he's dead? So Rohan is making him unconscious and before he writes something, he's erased. K.

 

[Hit_The_Badass]

Of course.

He chose to. He could've just erase the time it takes for him to be alive again, but he didn't since it should've been a shock to them. Also, he probably was earlier alive than we thought since we only could tell that he's alive again, when he "stood up".

You can't have a reaction when you're dead. It's automatic. It depends on. As said, Kumamagawa doesn't has full control of it. But it's automatically when he dies.

Or are you saying it isn't and therefore, he has a will and thoughts when he's dead? So Rohan is making him unconscious and before he writes something, he's erased. K.

My bad i mean thinking not reaction.

Sure he was shocked. But still had few moments before dying as those guys didn't instantly killed or knocked him out and hence why he said "I used it in a hurry"

Those were his exact words. Meaning he uses it instead it being automatic.

 

[Unforgiven0815]

Ah, sorry, just searched again, but he said that dying is the only thing he hates, so he decided to come back. So he has thoughts after dying, so literally exists with All Fiction out of reality, hence when Rohan should get him, he's still able to erase him with All Fiction.

 

[Hit_The_Badass]

Ah, sorry, just searched again, but he said that dying is the only thing he hates, so he decided to come back. So he has thoughts after dying, so literally exists with All Fiction out of reality, hence when Rohan should get him, he's still able to erase him with All Fiction.

Dude none can have thoughts after death -_- What i meant is Kumagawa activated All Fiction just a moment before his death. He barely used All Fiction at last breath, he dies, but since he used it before death he was saved.

 

[Unforgiven0815]

Give me a scan where he exactly said that he used it before he dies. Even the Wiki implies, that he used it AFTER his death.

We're getting nowhere with this. I stay at my point, you at yours.

 

[Hit_The_Badass]

"Mostly it's because i used it in a hurry"

Heavily implies he used it before dying, it's not automatic. He has to use it and think about it, otherwise it won't be activated.

 

[Unforgiven0815]

Maybe he wanted to come back quickly(smh), it can mean several things.

 

[RoyGundam]

It seems to be that one guy is heavily arguing for NLF with Kumagawa's All Fiction. Also, as I have mentioned twice already, death, for Kumagawa is not the ordinary kind of death. He clearly meets up with Ajimu every time he dies, they have a discussion, and then he comes back to life.

 

[Unforgiven0815]

• that that.

That doesn't change the fact, that Heaven's Door Range isn't as fast as someones thoughts. As soon as he brings it, it's the end.

 

[Hit_The_Badass]

It seems to be that one guy is heavily arguing for NLF with Kumagawa's All Fiction. Also, as I have mentioned twice already, death, for Kumagawa is not the ordinary kind of death. He clearly meets up with Ajimu every time he dies, they have a discussion, and then he comes back to life.

It doesn't matter to Heaven's Door if he goes to Ajimu after death. Rohan can simply rewrite him to go straight to hell instead of Ajimu like he did to Cheap Trick.

 

[RoyGundam]

@Grossuji Not if Kumagawa is in character. Kumagawa is arrogant as they come and rarely starts with All Fiction, while Rohan goes for the same tactic every time.

Ultimately, it boils down to who can gain knowledge about the other first. If both are unaware, Rohan would win but if Kumagawa has prior knowledge through 4th wall break, he would definitely win instead

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Also, we do not use "they know about X" for CH, so we should hold the same standards for other characters, not just Combined Human and Composite Human

 

[Reppuzan]

@JSW

That's a good point. But wouldn't that make 4th Wall Awareness useless?

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Under Standard Battle Assumptions, which is the reason why CH isn't given their knowledge of fiction in battles, yes.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Also, we do not use "they know about X" for CH, so we should hold the same standards for other characters, not just Combined Human and Composite Human

If character X exists in Character Y's universe as fiction, and Character Y has read about them, that is completely legitamate and canonical knowledge. It isn't OP saying "Character Y has prior knowledge", it's the knowledge and experience Character Y already has, in their own universe, and taking it away is the same as saying "character A has forgotten all his research on character B". Whether they both actually exist as real people in character A's universe is irrelevant

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

While I agree that if Character X exists in Y's verse as fiction, and that Y has read about their verse, they could have knowledge

But

1. We are making a huge assumption that Kumagawa has even read Part 4, and while it is likely, we can't just make assumptions just because we think that it's "likely"

and 2. We should hold the same standards for all of fiction, not just for specific characters like CH, who would "canonically" know about all of fiction itself, and "canonically" has prior knowledge, but Standard Battle Assumptions says that neither character has prior knowledge, so even if prior knowledge is canon, Standard Battle Assumptions says otherwise unless stated in the OP, perhaps this should get it's own thread though

 

[Hit_The_Badass]

I agree with @JustSomeWeirdo. We should follow Standard Battle Assumptions.

Like everyone above said how Kumagawa is arrogant and will try to take Heaven's Door attacks, it will be an easy win for Rohan as he will erase All Fiction and then rewrite Kumagawa to go to hell instead to Ajimu.

Without prior knowledgez Rohan has this in bag.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Hit The Badass

By the same logic, Rohan has no idea what Kumagawa's powers are and has a habit of flipping through the pages of his foes before starting to write in them.

Rohan has no way of knowing that Kumagawa's All Fiction will work even after Heaven's Door has been applied.

 

[Hit_The_Badass]

@Hit The Badass

By the same logic, Rohan has no idea what Kumagawa's powers are and has a habit of flipping through the pages of his foes before starting to write in them.

Rohan has no way of knowing that Kumagawa's All Fiction will work even after Heaven's Door has been applied.

He can read abd draw pretty fast tbh.

He can read Kumagawa to know that.

 

[Unforgiven0815]

Yea. "Can". Not if Heaven's Door is erased before. +Even if he wouldn't use All Fiction right from the start, getting Rohan with a screw and using Book Maker is also possible.

 

[Jayslice]

Lol implying Kuma is gonna know to erase HD right off the bat.

Rohan in serious mode is nothing to play with and he literally draws at FTL+ speeds ie. drawing before CD could even reach him or something of the sort.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Lol implying Kuma is gonna know to erase HD right off the bat.
Rohan in serious mode is nothing to play with and he literally draws at FTL+ speeds ie. drawing before CD could even reach him or something of the sort.

Well, I mean you guys are saying that Rohan will know to erase All Fiction immediately.

Also, speed is equalised

What is "CD"? All Fiction and Book Maker are Kuma's abilities

 

[Jayslice]

Crazy Diamond aka Josukes stand.

And speed equalized. And you do know Rohans drawings can be seen by anyone right?

All he needs to do is draw a picture in the air and Kuma is under the effects.

Once he's turned into a book Rohan goes to town.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I suspect that All Fiction would erase the event of "Kumagawa turns into a book" before Rohan is able to read or write anything in it.

 

[Unforgiven0815]

^

Plus, Kumagawa can erase the time so that his movements become virtually instantaneous and then get him with Book Maker.

 

[Jayslice]

How exactly is he going to do that if he doesn't know its going to happen?

He's just gonna know that he's going to be turned into a book?

Yeah, lol.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

But the moment he is a book, he can erase that event, just like he can erase his injuries and fatigue.

He doesn't even need to be aware or conscious. All Fiction erases the event of his death when he's already dead. Being transformed into a book won't be able to stop him when All Fiction automatically erases that event

 

[Hit_The_Badass]

But the moment he is a book, he can erase that event, just like he can erase his injuries and fatigue.

He doesn't even need to be aware or conscious. All Fiction erases the event of his death when he's already dead. Being transformed into a book won't be able to stop him when All Fiction automatically erases that event

I already gave the scan where it was shown that all fiction is not automatic. Stop giving all Fiction a fuction it never had.

 

[Xanxussama1010]

Kumagawa still can delete Heaven's Door before unconscious.

There're small gap between "see Heaven's Door" and "lose unconscious", Kumagawa can use this gap to delete "that's thing he seen" with AF. Even the gap is really small like less than a second. But due the fact that AF can instantly active fast enough to delete his own death, So this small gap shouldn't be a problem.

Since Rohan has no way to know about AF until he read, so he can't stop that. He can turn Kumagawa into book, but his action will fade after AF delete his Heaven's Door. And that's the end for him.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

That scan shows nothing of the sort.

"All Fiction activated after I died" - that's about as automatic as can be. Nowhere has it been shown that Kumagawa can put it on a "time delay" or something. And even if he can and that's what he did, that's literally the first thing he'd do in battle, so even if something happened to him it would be undone immediately.

Kamagawa "used" All Fiction because it is his ability, and it activated. Doesn't mean he himself consciously activated it. Stands can act independent of their users, we still say the user is "using: their stand.

 

[Hit_The_Badass]

^

Kumagwa was dying and therefore used All Fiction to save himself. he died but since he already used All fiction beofre dying.

There is no automatic working of all fiction, otherwise he would have solo enitre Medaka verse by himself.

Stop high playing Kumagawa.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

All Fiction's effect activates the moment Kuma uses it. If he he used it before he died, he would never have died in the first place. If it wasn't automatically activated after his death, he would still be dead

 

[Jayslice]

You're assuming Rohan would be killing him right off the bat.

Its not automatic man.

Rohan writes that he won't be using AF and that's it.