Revisions to High-Godly and True-Godly Regenerationn

[Mr. Bambu]

Premise

Continued from here.

Put simply, the idea was put forth that the higher echelons of our Regenerationn system don't make a whole lot of sense and thus should be revised. This thread is made in the hopes of making a simplified place of discussion. Note that this is not for verse-specific examples and rather as the guideline for all verses. With this in mind, the following are the arguments for removing or keeping our standards, and possible fixes.

Arguments Against High-Godly

• High-Godly Regenerationn is the only Regenerationn in our tiering system that focuses on place of Regenerationn as opposed to damage regenerated from

• The ability is, essentially, a simple combo of Mid-Godly and the ability to survive in a void rather than any actual higher-tier Regenerationn and thus shouldn't affect the character's own Regenerationn rating at all
• Even if a character cannot regenerate from the destruction of whatever universe he's in, that doesn't display a lower form of Regenerationn rather than it displays an inability to survive in a timeless void.

Quoting a particularly concise point in this department...

Yeah, Body. Body mind and soul Body mind, soul and your house Seems weird.''
	~ Amexim​

Arguments Against True-Godly

• True-Godly simply denotes the ability to regenerate from 1-A damage, however in theory this no more destroys every essence of your being than a High 1-B also destroying your mind, body, soul, and concept, ergo it is not superior

• True-Godly is flawed in that it is the only Regenerationn based purely on tier rather than damage regenerated from

Arguments For High-Godly

• The ability to regenerate from absolute nothingness, including the void of time and space, should be superior to simply regenerating from mind-body-and-soul erasure.
• Not all characters can regenerate in a timeless void, ergo High-Godly is superior.

Arguments for True-Godly

• True-Godly is Regenerationn from a point beyond dimensional existence, and therefore carries somewhat more weight with it when you regenerate from it.
• True-Godly is essentially smurf-based regen for those who can survive a 1-A and is thus useful for documenting purposes.

Alternative Suggestions
If we decide to remove one or both of the Regenerationn tiers in question (for the record I do agree with removing them), here are some suggested alternatives gathered from the last thread.

• High-Godly can become specifically conceptual erasure, where Mind-Body-Soul resides purely in Mid-Godly. The issue with this is specifying what kind of concept you're regenerating from- Type 2 would be favorable in this scenario. Basically, this follows the assumption that Mid-Godly leaves "backups" in the form of your concept in the multiverse that you can regenerate from, however characters with Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation would be able to destroy this in a way others could not, thus requiring you to have a better form of Regenerationn. Quoting Andy:

Good enough conceptual erasure wouldn't just be a more powerful EE it would mean reality has been fundamentally altered in a way to not contain you any more, imagining you shouldn't be possible, sentences wouldn't exist that reference the erased person and the person not only never existed but doesn't have the ability to ever exist.
	~ Andy​

• High-Godly could alternatively be replaced with regenerating from total existence erasure across time. The issue here is that for many time is an irrelevant construct and this also does not refer to some greater form of damage regenerated from. The idea is that you can destroy them from the point they came into existence and ergo they would be unable to regenerate back.

• High-Godly can simply be removed rather than replaced by anything at all. Or, phrasing it like many have, combine it with Mid-Godly and simply refer to it as "Godly".

• High-Godly becomes a catchall to anything Mid-Godly doesn't cover, quoting Anton, "Perhaps we change High-Godly to being capable to regen at any existential level (conceptual, metaphysical, temporal, principal, spiritual, etc.)"
• True-Godly remains 1-A but requires specific erasure of a Type 1 Concept. Merely being erased or hit by a 1-A and regenerating is not enough- a 1-A would specifically need to destroy your concept.

Post Script
I would like it to be known that this thread is not for further disorganized debate but rather a simple compilation of opinions and views to decide where to go from here. I will be removing any comments that are off-topic or needlessly argumentative. With that in mind, discuss. Objective, clear-cut opinions are appreciated.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

These are my comments on what i said confuses me, or possible issues with the current standard of High Godly regen. I made one comment here , and then another here.

My issue is that High Godly regen is regenerating even after your dimensional existence, or level of existence is erased/gone. However, if you regen from having your dimensonal existence completely removed from the entierty of all existence, that sounds like Baseline True Godly to me.

 

[Kaltias]

I disagree with High-Godly = erasure across time.

Literally anyone with mid-godly and type 1 acausality would survive that

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I agree. I more lean towards High-Godly being transformed to Mid-Godly + Type 2 Conceptual Erasure.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you, but I think that it might be a good idea if we could continue the discussion about Mid-High to High Regenerationn in this thread as well.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3045654

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

The comparision to a house in the OP is a bit manipulative imho. It's closer to "your body, soul, and your universe", as a house is not some separate plane of existence. The main difference between High-Godly and Mid-Godly is that the latter requires you to have somewhere to regenerate into, while the former doesn't, showing a clear difference in what either could let you survive.

I agree that True-Godly is a bit dumb, since even being punched by a haxless 1-A is enough for it at this point and that makes no sense for obvious reasons

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I personally do not mind Promestein's old solution to get rid of High-Godly, but keep True Godly.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The comparision to a house in the OP is a bit manipulative imho. It's closer to "your body, soul, and your universe". The main difference between High-Godly and Mid-Godly is that the latter requires you to have somewhere to regenerate into, while the former doesn't, showing a clear difference in what either could let you survive.
I agree that True-Godly is a bit dumb, since even being punched by a haxless 1-A is enough for it at this point and that makes no sense for obvious reasons

If character A is 3rd dimensional, and has high godly regen by the current standard, and Character B is an infinite dimensional being with infinite dimensional power.

Character B one day decided to completely remove all dimensions below the 24th from the entirety of all existence. A complete removable, and turns them into true nothingess. Nothing below the 24th dimension exist anymore. The 1st dimension ~ 23rd is gone. Perma deleted into a true void, and nothing anyone does can bring those deleted dimensions back into existence.

If Character A still regens from that. That would be true godly, yes? Character A has no dimensional values to regen into, right? That example above is exactly how the current standard of High Godly sounds to me.

A lot of other people on many previous threads before this are also confused on the current standard of High Godly.

 

[Andytrenom]

I disagree with High-Godly = erasure across time.

Literally anyone with mid-godly and type 1 acausality would survive that

But do you disagree with High Godly=Type 2 conceptual erasure?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

snip

The quote is not manipulative in my eyes. The purpose is to display that Regenerationn denotes reforming damage to oneself, not locale. As previously stated what you mention is simply Mid-Godly and surviving in a void.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

If character A is 3rd dimensional, and has high godly regen by the current standard, and Character B is an infinite dimensional being.

Character B one day decided to completely remove all dimensions below the 24th from the entirety of existence. A complete removable, and turns them into true nothingess. Nothing below the 24th dimension exist anymore. The 1st dimension ~ 23rd is gone. Perma deleted into a true void, and nothing anyone does can bring those deleted dimensions back into existence.

If Character A still regens from that. That would be true godly, yes? Character A has no dimensional values to regen into. That example above is exactly how the current standard of High Godly sounds to me.

A lot of other people on many previous threads before this are also confused on the current standard of High Godly.

Why would that be True-Godly? Dimensionless in no way also means beyond-dimensional. The name of Beyond-Dimensional Existence was changed for a reason

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Please stop quoting walls of text, both of you

 

[Moritzva]

I'm personally against High Godly and True Godly, as they seem far more technical and specific than the previous Godlies. I don't have much new to say on the subject, though.

 

[Paul_Frank]

I still think both of them are fine as they are

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

If that is how the wiki sees High Godly regen, then the current standard needs reworded so less people are confused. I need more finger to count the amount of times i seen people confused by the current standard.

 

[Kaltias]

@Andy

Not necessarily, but I wouldn't mind if High-Godly remained as it is either.

To use an example:

You have a drawing, a pencil, and a rubber. The drawing is the character with Regenerationn, the rubber is the EE, and me drawing stuff back is the Regenerationn process.

So, let's delete one arm, sure, I can draw it back. Low-Mid regen

Let's delete its entire body, I can draw that back, too. Mid-Godly

Now let's burn the page where the character was drawn. Can I bring the character back?

If the answer is "You'd need another page first because you can't draw in the air", that's pretty much the current distinction between Mid-Godly and High-Godly.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

snip

It seems designed to downplay the distinction between Mid-Godly and current High-Godly by making the comparision as unfavorable as possible. Literally everyone would agree to remove it if that was actually the case, the issue is that it isn't.

 

[PsychoWarper]

While I agree they should be revised I completely disagreeing with getting rid of them since that would make Mid-Godly WAY to varied in power.

 

[Paul_Frank]

All that really needs to happen is a rewording of high godly to better clarify it and maybe a rewording of true godly if people are confused by it too.

Neither have to be deleted or replaced

 

[Moritzva]

Yea, to clarify my point, I agree they should be revised and clarified, though a distinction should be made.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I would definitely prefer to keep true godly Regenerationn, as it means recovering from complete obliteration beyond the concepts of space and time.

I do not think that the arguments for keeping it seemed sufficiently well presented in the first post.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I think at the very least, High Godly regen needs reworded. True Godly regen i am neutral on, but on the previous thread some good points were brought up.

@hi3 was there a thread that dimensionless doesn't mean "Without a concept of dimensions?" I am only currently < 1 year old on the wiki so far. I haven't been really active on it until recently. The suffix "less" means to be "Without." In this case "Without a concept of dimensions." (Ths is relevant to an example i gave above that is ontopic before anyone thinks this is derailing lol.) [1] [2] [3] [4]

 

[Antvasima]

It is probably also best to make this thread only open for staff replies, as we will never get anything done otherwise, due to the resulting chaos, as the preceding thread showcased quite well.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Dimensionless very rarely innately excludes the concept of dimensions as a whole. Even then, it's not True-Godly since being without =/= transcending

 

[Andytrenom]

@Kal Does a character who has his entire multiverse destroyed and regenerate in the resulting void qualify for high godly or mid godly? Because playing along with the anaolgy this may really just be "being drawn in air" or does the character have to be stated to be restoring time and space enough to the point that he can exist and experience progression? Another question may be if he isn't stated to be doing something like that then can it still be reasonably assumed?

 

[Antvasima]

I have moved the thread to the staff forum, as this will likely go on for several hundred posts with nothing happening otherwise.

Former staff can still comment of course.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I have moved the thread to the staff forum, as this will likely go on for several hundred posts with nothing happening otherwise.

if this was moved to the staff forum.. may i have permission to ask/say relevant questions/rebuttals when it is possible?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I have moved the thread to the staff forum, as this will likely go on for several hundred posts with nothing happening otherwise.

Former staff can still comment of course.

This is a site-wide change that drastically affects how profiles are made and many that are already here

excluding 99.9999% of the wiki from having a say in this makes the wiki as a whole look bad and gives ammunition to trolls who say that regular users have no say in anything here

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we should start with the staff and former staff trying to solve this first, as there will be too many disorganised voices drowning each other out otherwise.

 

[Kaltias]

Pretty sure that regenerating in the void after everything got nuked is textbook High-Godly. And yes, it's "drawing in the air", but that was my point.

The person with High-Godly can "draw in the air", the person with Mid-Godly can't.

And not sure if I understood the last question, but if they aren't stated to have restored space-time beforehand, you shouldn't assume it unless other stuff points towards that

 

[Antvasima]

It is not about regular members having no say in general. It is about that the most important policy changes tend to be more complicated to figure out solutions to, and by my experience, keeping such threads open for everybody results in several hundred posts of disorganisation that leads to no solutions.

 

[Theglassman12]

Ant, you do know that we can just tell people to stop derailing or mentioning stuff that has nothing to do with the subject at hand? One of the last Lines in the OP says that Bambu or any other staff member will just remove posts that have nothing to do with the discussion at hand

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

@Ant

Staff aren't infallible or have the solution to everything. By your very same logic, these sorts of threads should be open to everyone in case a nuanced intepretation that suddenly appears ends up being the best possible solution. Even if people tend to spam threads when it's open to everyone, which i really cannot deny, disallowing basically everyone from participating when it's the fault of a few specific individuals that derail any thread they can get a hold on definitely isn't a better idea.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Kal I thought "you need another paper because you can't draw on air" was supposed to mean the high-Godly is restoring something that he can be drawn on, since the basis for High godly I heard from others was "being able to restore a part of the reality you were in" instead of just regenerating from EE

 

[Antvasima]

@Theglassman12

Well, I suppose that could be an option as well. I am just very tired, and have a very recurrent bad experience with these types of threads.

 

[Moritzva]

I get Ant's point here, regardless. Let's not drag things too off topic.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Question, Does "reality" in the current standard of High Godly regen mean "their dimensional value/Existence?" If so.. Why not make the distinction of separation there, and reword It? seems less confusing to me than saying "The reality you are within." Say something like "The dimension that makes up a characters existence" or "The X-dimensional level the character is within."

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if other staff members are willing to constantly remove any irrelevant or off-topic posts, I suppose that they can move this thread back to the other forum, and remove staff only from the title, but as usual there is a very serious risk that we will have to spend far more effort for far less result.

 

[Antoniofer]

I feel like people is mixing philosofy with theoric physics. First, I want to known what does it means when people refer to be erased "beyond the concept of dimensions".

 

[PsychoWarper]

When you're erased on a 1-A level/by a 1-A and you come back from it.

So if you're lets say EEd my Emprah or Pelinals maddness and come back thats True-Godly.