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Revising the Varies tier

DaReaperMan

DaReaperMan

Bronze Supporter
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Lets get straight to the point, but please remain civil about this.

"Even if a character has the potential to reach a certain tier, the use of any tier between that tier and the one it scales to is not allowed. For example, Avatar of Calamity cannot be used in a vs thread with a tier between High 7-A and 2-A or Unknown and 2-A depending on the used key." ~ Versus Thread Rules

This right here makes the Varies tier as a whole not friendly to those who are new to the wiki, it increases confusion by a large margin and has one massive glaring flaw as seen below

The Varies tier isn't actually a Varies tier, for example you cannot make a 8-C Tom Cat match because he can only be 9-B or High 7-C, if Tom's tier truly varied he could be 9-B, 9-A, 8-C, etc, etc. But he can't.

As Varies as a tier is right now you may as well just use "possibly/likely/at most" in place of it. Varies has no meaning in its current state.

My proposition? Make Varies as it should be; a character's tier truly varies across the spectrum they cover with it. And as an upside, make the tier friendly to someone new to the wiki as a whole. And remove that from Versus Thread Rules.

As a note this can(and should) be postponed if other projects take precedence, but I want this on the line now.
 
Thr major problem tends to be that you cannot be certain that a varies tier does have such an in-between point.

You would need to prove that the increase in power is linear and can be static.

For exemple, let's assume there's a version of hulk that goes from 10-B to 7-A through anger. How can you know he can be 9-A? What if even a little bit of anger already elevates him to 8-C, or 7-C, or whatever else?


I'd agree that if a character's power is something along the lines of "every hour, my power increases by x amount", then you should be allowed to take them at a specific level of power. Otherwise though..? Not really.
 
I mean I don't see any problems for vs sake...even if you don't truly know what tier a character is, its the matchmaker who decides "I'll assume this character is X tier between Y and Z tier so that he can go up against this other character who is also X tier"" there is nothing wrong with that. It may not be true but its not false either.

Like Reaper mentioned freedom of choice here serves us better than restrictions over "accuracy".
 
Ricsi is correct as far as I am aware.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
Thr major problem tends to be that you cannot be certain that a varies tier does have such an in-between point.

You would need to prove that the increase in power is linear and can be static.

For exemple, let's assume there's a version of hulk that goes from 10-B to 7-A through anger. How can you know he can be 9-A? What if even a little bit of anger already elevates him to 8-C, or 7-C, or whatever else?


I'd agree that if a character's power is something along the lines of "every hour, my power increases by x amount", then you should be allowed to take them at a specific level of power. Otherwise though..? Not really.
Click to expand...
That example you gave doesn't sound correct to me. If there was a version of Hulk that went from 10-B to 7-A after transformation, then it shouldn't have a varies tier. It would be as simple as something along the lines of "10-B, 7-A when enraged", "Varies, from 10-B to 7-A" would definitely cause confusion.

I'm staying neutral on this subject for now, just thought I'd point out a flaw in that analogy tho since it doesn't seem correct to me.
 
KieranH10 said:
That example you gave doesn't sound correct to me. If there was a version of Hulk that went from 10-B to 7-A after transformation, then it shouldn't have a varies tier. It would be as simple as something along the lines of "10-B, 7-A when enraged", "Varies, from 10-B to 7-A" would definitely cause confusion.

I'm staying neutral on this subject for now, just thought I'd point out a flaw in that analogy tho since it doesn't seem correct to me.
Click to expand...
Nah his example is right, Hulk increases in Tier based on his rage, Not that he jumps from 10-B to 7-A and remain a 7-A. He can be a 7,8 or 9, depending on his mood
 
Pain_to12 said:
Nah his example is right, Hulk increases in Tier based on his rage, Not that he jumps from 10-B to 7-A and remain a 7-A. He can be a 7,8 or 9, depending on his mood
Click to expand...
That is correct for the real Hulk, but his analogy seemed to imply that this was not the case in the example he gave, perhaps I misinterpreted.

If in this analogy the Hulk would be able to be any tier between 10-B and 7-A, then the argument doesn't really add up imo.
 
DragonLord said:
I feel like if a varies tier has only 2 Keys, it should probably just be “possibly” or “X Tier at Full Power” rather then a varies tier, if there’s 3 or more I think it’s fine
Click to expand...
My thought is similar to this too, unless they vary across an entire range of tier, they should just get a better explanation other than varie, e.g. "can be 8B, 6C and 5A" but the vary should be something like this " Varies from 8B to 5A" which would mean the said character can access all keys in between this said tiers.
KieranH10 said:
That is correct for the real Hulk, but his analogy seemed to imply that this was not the case in the example he gave, perhaps I misinterpreted.

If in this analogy the Hulk would be able to be any tier between 10-B and 7-A, then the argument doesn't really add up imo.
Click to expand...
well his analogy is a little bit flawed, i am just trying to explain what i think he meant
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Varies tier should still exist, but it should only be applied to characters with lore statements about their powers fluctuating. Simply being infamous for inconsistencies is not enough to solify for one.
Click to expand...
Well what about characters with varying tiers put in vs matches ?? Can you pick and choose a tier for a match arbitrarily in the varies spectrum without repercussions in rules??
 
Yeah, we should avoid guess working a middle if there are only two ends from what I recall last time.
 
I guess someone like Alice would be an exception, as she explosively grows to match her opponent, so you could say she has in between tiers so to speak, especially as her ability works in relation to her opponent, if all her stats; ap, speed, resistances etc all outperformed her opponent, her growth will slow down.

But she is more of an exception than the rule.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Varies tier should still exist, but it should only be applied to characters with lore statements about their powers fluctuating. Simply being infamous for inconsistencies is not enough to solify for one.
Click to expand...
When did I ever say I wanted to get rid of the varies tier? I think its pointless right now, thats why I made the thread.
 
I feel the issue on the varies tier in my opinion is that some of characters with it don’t really Vary enough even if they have a canonical basis to vary in power, like “oh yeah on average X is X Tier but a few times there X Tier”, isn’t really a Variable character like the Hulk, who has wide range of feats through his many many issues, something like the example really should just be “At Least X, X At Full Power”
 
KieranH10 said:
That is correct for the real Hulk, but his analogy seemed to imply that this was not the case in the example he gave, perhaps I misinterpreted.

If in this analogy the Hulk would be able to be any tier between 10-B and 7-A, then the argument doesn't really add up imo.
Click to expand...
"What if even a little bit of anger already elevates him to 8-C, or 7-C, or whatever else?" should've made it clear there that the exemply wasn't an all or nothing powerup, and I explained what the meaning of the exemple was with "not all varies tiers actually go through all in-between tiers".

Anyhow, I feel it should be fine in cases where the varies tier is based off of how strong the enemy is (like ditto, or Celestial's exemple, and many others), but otherwise it's hard to do it.
 
I also support making Varies what it should be, a tier designated for characters whose tier can vary between point A and B, rather than just being a fancy and confusing way of saying "At least X tier, Y at most" or the like. Them not being "statically" in any point between those two tiers doesn't really matter beyond certain versus threads.
 
Should I call more staff members here?
 
Bobsican said:
I also support making Varies what it should be, a tier designated for characters whose tier can vary between point A and B, rather than just being a fancy and confusing way of saying "At least X tier, Y at most" or the like. Them not being "statically" in any point between those two tiers doesn't really matter beyond certain versus threads.
Click to expand...
Honestly I agree with this, some characters just honestly shouldnt be in “Varies”.

Only characters that actually fluctuate and vary (Weather on purpose or not) between various tiers in a range should be Varies.
 
I mean, I agree that Varies shouldn't be used as a fancy substitute for "At least, possibly/likely". However, I disagree that we should change Varies to exclusively be for people that can be any tier between the assigned tier ranges. As others have said while some circumstances can allow for a scenario like that, there are others where we just don't know how the increments work, like in the aforementioned Hulk example, so, as usual, the profiles need to do a better job at explaining those things.
 
Well, I think Tom can probably be the tiers between them, as he is a toonforce character which's feats just arbitrarily vary as they tend to do for such characters.
That aside, I'm obviously fine with not using it, where at least/at most are more appropriate. Given, I have never seen varies used instead of those.
I'm against removing the rule, though. Characters should be used at the power levels they have feats for. Theoretical in-between steps would just get abused to make stat equal matches.
 
DontTalk makes sense as usual.
 
Just use Varies in conjunction with at least and at most and stuff, for profiles that can actually fluctuate significantly power-wise

eg.

Varies, at least x, up to x
 
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I disagree with the OP, varies tier as it is does vary from at least one rating to another. Tiers they physically never appear in have no right to be used, period.
 
If the issue over using Varies as the OP outlines are issues on versus threads, they can just be evaluated on a case by case basis. Characters whose tier fluctuates between A and B can't use any tier that isn't A or B themselves as they can suddendly become either far below or above the tier the user may have proposed for the sake of the match at any moment, thus turning that sort of matches into mismatches, but in the same way, characters that statically remain in X tier (usually by copying the stats of the opponent or the like) should be fine on this kind of stuff.
 
Promestein said:
Just use Varies in conjunction with at least and at most and stuff, for profiles that can actually fluctuate significantly power-wise

eg.

Varies, at least x, up to x
Click to expand...
This seems fine to me.
Mr._Bambu said:
I disagree with the OP, varies tier as it is does vary from at least one rating to another. Tiers they physically never appear in have no right to be used, period.
Click to expand...
I agree with this as well.
 
I think this is mostly a matter of semantics, really. "Possibly," "likely" and "at most" usually tend to imply uncertainty regarding a given character's tier, while "Varies" is most suitable for cases where both ratings are concrete, but demonstrably not the character's fixed tier. I'd personally apply it only if there was some in-universe reason for it (I know a few verses where characters can adjust their level of existence at will and thus vary between different degrees of Tier 1, for instance), but that's probably not relevant for this thread in particular.

So, all-in-all, I think Prom's suggestion is pretty sensible.
 
I think that's already done in some capacity and I've no problem with the practice.
 
Okay. So what do we need to do here specifically?
 
Mr._Bambu said:
I disagree with the OP, varies tier as it is does vary from at least one rating to another. Tiers they physically never appear in have no right to be used, period.
Click to expand...
I agree with this. "Varies", in a lot of cases, is different than "at least" or "at most". A character can vary between two tiers depending on some context, conditions or circumstances, both tiers being equally valid in those cases, and it does not mean the character can be any tier between those tiers (which is something like changing your power level at will, in which case we use the highest rating). "At least/most" is used when we are not sure about the character's rating.
 
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