Revising IZ AP and all DBS Low-2Cs

[OneRhasstyBoi]

. Due to the fact that the distance between any given number of universes embedded in higher-dimensional / higher-order spaces is currently unknowable, it is impossible to quantify the numerical gap between each one of the subtiers in Tier 2. As such, it is not allowed to upgrade such a character based solely on multipliers. For example, someone twice as strong as a Low 2-C character would still be Low 2-C, and someone infinitely more powerful than a 2-C would not be 2-A. Since the distance between separated space-time continuums is unknown, multipliers is basically useless in Low 2-C tier, one can’t get to 2-C based on solely multipliers. IZ has shown the capability to breach the distance between two separated 4D space-time continuums. Therefore, he would also be above any multipliers in Low 2-C tier. My proposal: At least Low 2-C IZ and anyone who scales to him.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

In agreement here. His size is equal to his AP due to literally merging with his universe, and he was literally peeking out into another universe, meaning he did breach the distance between them.

 

[Vietthai96]

Do you know that is IZ key already have Low 2-C, would eventually become 2-C.

First, when he became IZ, he merged with space-time mean he is baseline Low 2-C and it already showed in the anime that start to breaching the distance between space-time continuums, there are no multiplier there to list him have Atleast Low 2-C cause he already start breaching distance between space-time continuums to become 2-C, that why IZ key already have Low 2-C, would eventually become 2-C.

Second all character scale to him already have Low 2-C and atleast Low 2-C.

I really don't understand the purpose of this revision

 

[OneRhasstyBoi]

The 2-C key is hypothetical, if Zeno didn’t erase him, he would have had became 2-C. I was mentioning his Uncompleted Form, even in this state, he was capable of fusing with not just the Future U7 but also the distance between 2 separated 4D space-time continuums, said distance can’t be breached based on solely multipliers as mentioned above, the distance is also the thing that make every single Low 2-C stuck at Low 2-C. So IZ is the universe + the distance between 2 universes while Low 2-C baseline is only the universe. Therefore, I proposed At least Low 2-C in his initial state( Fusing with the entirety of U7 and the distance between two timelines), would eventually become 2-C( if not erased, will fuse with 2 timelines).

 

[Vietthai96]

The 2-C key is hypothetical, if Zeno didn’t erase him, he would have had became 2-C. I was mentioning his Uncompleted Form, even in this state, he was capable of fusing with not just the Future U7 but also the distance between 2 separated 4D space-time continuums, said distance can’t be breached based on solely multipliers as mentioned above, the distance is also the thing that make every single Low 2-C stuck at Low 2-C. So IZ is the universe + the distance between 2 universes while Low 2-C baseline is only the universe. Therefore, I proposed At least Low 2-C in his initial state( Fusing with the entirety of U7 and the distance between two timelines), would eventually become 2-C( if not erased, will fuse with 2 timelines).

You don't get it don't you. HE ISSSS BASELINE IN HIS INITIAL STATE, the wording would eventually become 2-C already convey everything, from his initial state to his incomplete form to his hypothetical complete form, that mean the Atleast Low 2-C already in the range of Low 2-C, would eventually become 2-C, adding a atleast low 2-C key mean nothing.

The staff should lock this topic

 

[OneRhasstyBoi]

You don't get it don't you. HE ISSSS BASELINE IN HIS INITIAL STATE, the wording would eventually become 2-C already convey everything, from his initial state to his incomplete form to his hypothetical complete form, that mean the Atleast Low 2-C already in the range of Low 2-C, would eventually become 2-C, adding a atleast low 2-C key mean nothing.

The staff should lock this topic

Due to the fact that the distance between any given number of universes embedded in higher-dimensional / higher-order spaces is currently unknowable, it is impossible to quantify the numerical gap between each one of the subtiers in Tier 2. As such, it is not allowed to upgrade such a character based solely on multipliers. Coming from the Tiering System page, the distance between universes is unknown, so it is impossible to upgrade characters based on multipliers, any multipliers whether it be a million or trillions or sextillions. The distance has been breached by IZ, it’s also logical that he should be above any multipliers that can be used in Low 2-C tier, thus the at least.

 

[OneRhasstyBoi]

Or in short, the feat which performed by IZ is a borderline 2-C feat. Just the same as Beerus and Champa, Beerus + Champa = 2 universes + the distance, so Beerus = 1 universe + half the distance and he has At least Low 2-C. I don’t get why IZ can’t be the same.

 

[Vietthai96]

Or in short, the feat which performed by IZ is a borderline 2-C feat. Just the same as Beerus and Champa, Beerus + Champa = 2 universes + the distance, so Beerus = 1 universe + half the distance and he has At least Low 2-C. I don’t get why IZ can’t be the same.

wut dah ***, Beerus and Champa feat is completely different, they are stated that when seriously clash, they will INSTANTLY BUSTING 2 UNIVERSE AND IT SPACE-TIME + THE DISTANCE. Meanwhile IZ feat is SLOWLY SPREADING HIMSELF AND MERGE.

 

[OneRhasstyBoi]

wut dah ***, Beerus and Champa feat is completely different, they are stated that when seriously clash, they will INSTANTLY BUSTING 2 UNIVERSE AND IT SPACE-TIME + THE DISTANCE. Meanwhile IZ feat is SLOWLY SPREADING HIMSELF AND MERGE.

Doesn’t refute anything that i said. Instantly busting 2 universes by a combination of Beerus and Champa, cut it in half and you still have 1 universe and half the distance. IZ is literally 1 universe + the entire distance, doesn’t matter how slow he took because he is already one with it. And the feat isn’t slow either, after being cut in half by Trunks, he is already in the main timeline.

 

[Vietthai96]

Doesn’t refute anything that i said. Instantly busting 2 universes by a combination of Beerus and Champa, cut it in half and you still have 1 universe and half the distance. IZ is literally 1 universe + the entire distance, doesn’t matter how slow he took because he is already one with it. And the feat isn’t slow either, after being cut in half by Trunks, he is already in the main timeline.

That was his initial state, which is baseline, and the wording in his tier is would eventually become 2-C already convey the atleast low 2-C and feat of him breaching the distance. Atleast Low 2-C in his initial state is wrong conclusion

 

[Planck69]

Just breaching an arbitrary distance between universes without affecting others isn't anything above baseline at all. This seems to be a severe misunderstanding of that part of the tiering system.

 

[OneRhasstyBoi]

In his initial state, he is already in the main timeline, what are you talking about? If Beerus is 1 universe + half the distance -> At least Low 2-C via a STATEMENT, while IZ is literally 1 universe + the entire distance via an on screen feat supported by Whis and Beerus statements also, why can’t he be At least Low 2-C.

 

[OneRhasstyBoi]

Just breaching an arbitrary distance between universes without affecting others isn't anything above baseline at all. This seems to be a severe misunderstanding of that part of the tiering system.

There is no misunderstanding here, take Champa + Beerus for an example. Champa+ Beerus=2C, cut it in half, you gonna have Beerus half 2C right, or the universe + half the distance? Sound logical,eh? And Beerus is at least Low 2-C. If breaching the distance between two universes doesn’t make you above baseline, why is Beerus one of the strongest Low 2-Cs in terms of AP on this site and where does the at least come from?

 

[Planck69]

Because he backscales from an actual 2-C feat, that's it. If the feat was just "their battle would even breach beyond the universe", he and Champa wouldn't be above baseline like they are now, even though inter-universal distance was referenced.

 

[OneRhasstyBoi]

Because he backscales from an actual 2-C feat, that's it. If the feat was just "their battle would even breach beyond the universe", he and Champa wouldn't be above baseline like they are now, even though inter-universal distance was referenced.

Beerus*2=2C-> at least Low 2-C. 2C= the universe + distance + another universe. IZ = the universe + distance ( shown on screen, not a statement). 2* IZ =2C because 2* IZ is the universe + distance + another universe. Hence the at least Low 2-C.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Zamasu would have had to significantly affect the present world in order to qualify.
The only reason Beerus and Champa are "At least Low 2-C" is because they were going to significantly affect (destroy) two space-time continua.

 

[Planck69]

Beerus*2=2C-> at least Low 2-C. 2C= the universe + distance + another universe. IZ = the universe + distance ( shown on screen, not a statement). 2* IZ =2C because 2* IZ is the universe + distance + another universe. Hence the at least Low 2-C.

Please stop referencing distance as though it changes what I said. There's just a Low 2-C feat that he scales to. The breaching at best just means better range. Unless he backscales from significantly affecting 2 space-time continua and the space between, this doesn't change anything.

 

[OneRhasstyBoi]

Please stop referencing distance as though it changes what I said. There's just a Low 2-C feat that he scales to. The breaching at best just means better range. Unless he backscales from significantly affecting 2 space-time continua and the space between, this doesn't change anything.

And the range is the same thing that make all Low 2-Cs stuck at where they are, isn’t it? Said range has already been breached, Low 2-Cs can’t reach 2-C via multipliers cause they lack the range.

 

[Planck69]

And the range is the same thing that make all Low 2-Cs stuck at where they are, isn’t it? Said range has already been breached, Low 2-Cs can’t reach 2-C via multipliers cause they lack the range.

No? The reason is because the distance between universes embedded in higher order space is unknowable, so any calculation of the gap between baseline 2-C and Low 2-C, even in terms of multiples of baseline Low 2-C AP is impossible to make. To be safe and for convenience, we only allow movement into 2-C via feats. They don't suddenly upscale in Low 2-C when they breach into that inter-universal distance but don't affect any other universe.

 

[Planck69]

But ay, I'm not sure about the general wiki stance on that so you can ask staff.

 

[OneRhasstyBoi]

You have said it yourself, the distance between universes embedded in high order space is unknowable, multipliers mean nothing between Low 2-C and 2-C. IZ already breached that, he should be above any multipliers.

 

[Planck69]

It doesn't mean he's above multipliers. It just means multipliers can't be used by characters to upscale to 2-C. He's still Low 2-C so this also applies to him. Since it can be a 1.5x gap, a 20x gap, a π gap or whatever, we just don't know.

Seriously, this misconception that 2-C >>>>>>>>>>> ∞ Low 2-C has to die already,

 

[OneRhasstyBoi]

Yeah this thread can be closed.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Just breaching an arbitrary distance between universes without affecting others isn't anything above baseline at all. This seems to be a severe misunderstanding of that part of the tiering system.

So it’s not breaching the distance that matters, but taking over the universe? That makes so sense because destroying the distance is what makes the tier impressive.

 

[Greenshifter]

Also for Dragon Ball... why don’t we just calculate the power needed to reach to another universe with an AoE attack? Since we already scaled Whis to crossing between 2 universes in speed before.

 

[Vietthai96]

Also for Dragon Ball... why don’t we just calculate the power needed to reach to another universe? Since we already scaled/scale Whis to crossing between 2 universes in speed before.

you can't calc the distance between 2 space-time universe, it is currently unqualifiable

 

[Greenshifter]

you can't calc the distance between 2 space-time universe, it is currently unqualifiable

I mean wasn’t there a shot where all the universes were visible as bubbles and you can just draw a straight line between them to get the (smallest) distance?

I think it was this shot or something from the same episode.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I mean wasn’t there a shot where all the universes were visible as bubbles and you can just draw a straight line between them to get the (smallest) distance?

I think it was this shot or something from the same episode.

He was actually spreading between the timelines, meaning he spreaded between Future Universe 7 and Present Universe 7, not to another universe in the same timeline such as to Universe 6

 

[CR_Catinho]

Just breaching an arbitrary distance between universes without affecting others isn't anything above baseline at all.

Zamasu would have had to significantly affect the present world in order to qualify.

Pardon ? I think you guys are misunderstanding the purpose of this Crt , it's not to upgrade him to 2-C it's to make Him at LEAST low 2-C which should be obvious , IZ has no business being treated as baseline when he was literally just 1 step away from fully becoming 2-C .

The others scale to IZ at the moment he was erased ( 1 universe+ the entire distance btw the the timelines )

 

[Greenshifter]

He was actually spreading between the timelines, meaning he spreaded between Future Universe 7 and Present Universe 7, not to another universe in the same timeline such as to Universe 6

Ah yeah you're right, I was probably thinking about Beerus' and Champa's feat too much... then again wouldn't breaching from one hypertimeline (containing 12 universes) to another hypertimeline be more impressive than encompassing all 12 the universes? So in fact he would actually be 2-C at that point...

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

He didn't became omnipresent in the entire 12 universes just yet. He started as only omnipresent within Universe 7

 

[ZetaMarishi]

Ah yeah you're right, I was probably thinking about Beerus' and Champa's feat too much... then again wouldn't breaching from one hypertimeline (containing 12 universes) to another hypertimeline be more impressive than encompassing all 12 the universes? So in fact he would actually be 2-C at that point...

Honestly, part of the problem is due to the universes all being a part of one timeline more than anything. Or at least being able to be seen as being encompassed by the same time-space. The way Dragon Ball handles the universes is super bizarre.

I personally agree with you on that front, but good luck arguing it properly.

 

[Greenshifter]

He didn't became omnipresent in the entire 12 universes just yet. He started as only omnipresent within Universe 7

Did they even mention the other 11 universes at all though? Didn't they also say he fused with the timeline rather than with universe 7? Lastly DDM already argued before that Beerus' and Champa's feat is a 4D feat instead of 3D because you'd first need to target the entire space-time before moving on to other space-times. I don't see a reason why this reasoning can't be extrapolated to bigger structures to say you'd first need to target/encompass an entire hypertimeline before moving on to another hypertimeline.

I personally agree with you on that front, but good luck arguing it properly.

Thanks, I think I got this though.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

Another problem is that, as far as I remember, the only sign that there is that he would have infected all of the timelines is that anime Zeno felt the need to wipe them all out, and he apparently gives enough of a shit about the universes to allow people to bring the universes he erased back in the Tournament of Power (Which could have more been a result of Goku befriending him to whatever extent he did). You could argue that, but you could also argue that even with just universe 7 taken over, he could still spread to the past.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

You know DBS wouldn’t have so much CRTs and problems if tier 2 actually made sense lol.

 

[Greenshifter]

You could argue that, but you could also argue that even with just universe 7 taken over, he could still spread to the past.

Actually you can hardly argue that, think of the timestream as a tree, now think of the branches of a tree and cut one of them in 12 pieces (in the same direction as the branch). Now it'll always be easier to go from one of the 12 pieces to another piece within the same branch than it'll be to go from one branch to a completely different branch (which is also cut in 12 pieces).

 

[CR_Catinho]

Did they even mention the other 11 universes at all though? Didn't they also say he fused with the timeline rather than with universe 7?

Yes kinda , when they bring zeno he says smtg along the lines of the " what happened to this world" , they usually refer to the 12 universes as world but it was deemed too vague to use .

 

[God900]

Here we go again.......

 

[ZetaMarishi]

Will Icarus syndrome strike Dragon Ball yet again? Probably, but I am looking forward to seeing how this'll play out.

Edit: I still agree with the OP, at the very least.

 

[SSJRyu1]

OK, facts are Zamasu is said to be fusing with the Universe itself in the future multiverse, (Universe 7), early on and continued to expand. He then is stated by Whis and Beerus to be effecting the present, aka a separate multiverse, and they can feel his ki all the way at Beerus planet, and we see he is also on Earth, so his presence has crossed a significant portion of the present U7 as well at that point, if not all of it, at least to some degree enough for it to be "effecting" it as Whis says. Imo this alone should be 2-C for fusing with at least 1 macrocosm, and were fusing with a second in another multiverse where you already have crossed the space time boundaries and spread influence through a significant portion bare minimum. Its definitely beyond baseline Low 2-C.

As for the other Universes in the future multiverse, it is never explicitly stated he fused with the them, however Zeno remarks that "a world like this shouldn't exist", and feels the need to nuke the entire timeline, so I would argue it's implied that Zamasu fused with the other Universes. You might argue that Zeno is just a psychopath and doesn't care about the other Universes so he did it without needing to, but his stated reasoning is that the whole "world" or multiverse in this context shouldn't exist, implying it is all unsaveable due to Zamasu fusing with it, and we know he at least cares somewhat for the Universes since he wanted and expected the ToP to end with all of them being restored. Although I won't claim that its explicitly shown what happens in the other Universes either way, only implied.

That's my take on the events anyway.