Removing Power of the Verse from Verse pages

[Reiner04]

I personally think that it is an important niché and that we should probably figure out a way to restructure the power of the verse section to turn more useful instead of deleting it, but I do not feel strongly about the issue. It depends on if any of you are willing to do the work of removing the section from all of our verse pages.

However, we also need to rewrite our verse page construction instructions, including regarding adding new "Scaling" sections.

I'd to include recent tier 4 changes in Ben 10, under presumption that Power of the verse will turn into a scaling section, i added scaling chain within Power of the verse, will i have to create separate section for it rather than adding it within "Power of the verse"?

 

[Antvasima]

If there already exists a scaling text within a verse page, it should be moved to a new "Scaling" section, yes.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Scaling (Optional)​

---

• This section should accurately explain which feats are applicable to characters and entities within the verse and how they "scale" amongst them. Examples of how to portray this could include
  • A scaling chain which lists off characters based on their relative strength to each other, e.g. (Dark Knight Accounts > PoH >= Goddess Accounts > Gabriel > EoA Kirito >>> Star King Kirito)
  • A brief excerpt of what feats apply to which characters.
  • Power or grading systems that may place characters in certain realms of power relative to each other.
  • Outliers or feats that may not be applicable to characters at current.
  • A potential list of in-verse "Tiering", with reasoning as to why characters are in each tier.

Okay. Thank you for helping out.Show the draft text here please.

Here you go.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Bump

 

[Flashlight237]

I should bring up that some verses have a "Power of the Verse" section, yet not a "Calculations" section. What should we do in cases like this?

 

[CurrySenpai]

I should bring up that some verses have a "Power of the Verse" section, yet not a "Calculations" section. What should we do in cases like this?

Well, Reiner suggested informing verse supporters of the changes first as it would be easier for people who know these verses to add certain sections. Verses that haven't been updated in a while could be fixed with a bot or just doing the editing ourselves, which I would volunteer fgor.

 

[KLOL506]

I should bring up that some verses have a "Power of the Verse" section, yet not a "Calculations" section. What should we do in cases like this?

Just add a Calculations section of accepted calcs. Stuff that's already accepted and applied in profiles from the get-go shouldn't need a CRT to be added again, it's like adding references, you're not changing any statistics.

 

[Antvasima]

On second thought, wouldn't the easiest solution here be to simply disallow usage of subjective "this worse is very strong/weak", "this verse is somewhat strong/weak", et cetera statements within the "Power of the Verse" sections via an official instruction rule? The rest of the information within those sections does not seem to cause any harm and is likely recurrently useful for visitors who want a quick overview.

But isn't it more useful and easily applied to simply instruct our members to keep those sections updated, to avoid subjective statements, etc., meaning to allegorically renovate the house in a sensible manner, rather than tear down the entire building to build a new one?

I personally think that it is an important niché and that we should probably figure out a way to restructure the power of the verse section to turn more useful instead of deleting it

These are still my views regarding the "Power of the Verse" sections, but I think that the new "Scaling" section instructions draft seems good.

 

[Vzearr]

Bump.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Scaling (Optional)​

---

• This section should accurately explain which feats are applicable to characters and entities within the verse and how they "scale" amongst them. Examples of how to portray this could include
  • A scaling chain which lists off characters based on their relative strength to each other, e.g. (Dark Knight Accounts > PoH >= Goddess Accounts > Gabriel > EoA Kirito >>> Star King Kirito)
  • A brief excerpt of what feats apply to which characters.
  • Power or grading systems that may place characters in certain realms of power relative to each other.
  • Outliers or feats that may not be applicable to characters at current.
  • A potential list of in-verse "Tiering", with reasoning as to why characters are in each tier.

Here you go.

Bump, would like to see what staff think about this, that way we could move forward with this revision since it seems it would be quite sizeable

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr. Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Agnaa @Just_a_Random_Butler @DarkGrath @Dereck03

Your input would be very appreciated regarding the following posts.

Removing Power of the Verse from Verse pages

I personally think that it is an important niché and that we should probably figure out a way to restructure the power of the verse section to turn more useful instead of deleting it, but I do not feel strongly about the issue. It depends on if any of you are willing to do the work of removing...

vsbattles.com

Removing Power of the Verse from Verse pages

I personally think that it is an important niché and that we should probably figure out a way to restructure the power of the verse section to turn more useful instead of deleting it, but I do not feel strongly about the issue. It depends on if any of you are willing to do the work of removing...

vsbattles.com

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Scaling (Optional)​

---

• This section should accurately explain which feats are applicable to characters and entities within the verse and how they "scale" amongst them. Examples of how to portray this could include
  • A scaling chain which lists off characters based on their relative strength to each other, e.g. (Dark Knight Accounts > PoH >= Goddess Accounts > Gabriel > EoA Kirito >>> Star King Kirito)
  • A brief excerpt of what feats apply to which characters.
  • Power or grading systems that may place characters in certain realms of power relative to each other.
  • Outliers or feats that may not be applicable to characters at current.
  • A potential list of in-verse "Tiering", with reasoning as to why characters are in each tier.

Here you go.

Looks good to me.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Scaling (Optional)​

---

• This section should accurately explain which feats are applicable to characters and entities within the verse and how they "scale" amongst them. Examples of how to portray this could include
  • A scaling chain which lists off characters based on their relative strength to each other, e.g. (Dark Knight Accounts > PoH >= Goddess Accounts > Gabriel > EoA Kirito >>> Star King Kirito)
  • A brief excerpt of what feats apply to which characters.
  • Power or grading systems that may place characters in certain realms of power relative to each other.
  • Outliers or feats that may not be applicable to characters at current.
  • A potential list of in-verse "Tiering", with reasoning as to why characters are in each tier.

Here you go.

I'm fine with an option scaling section that explains what's listed above.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for your replies.

And what do you think about my own concerns in my first linked post above?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

And what do you think about my own concerns in my first linked post above?

Regarding the Power of the Verse section?

I do agree, it causes no real harm but we definitely should get rid of terms like "this verse is strong/weak" and so on. It's a niche thing that can still provide information, though the scaling section still can go into important information. Honestly, if people want it to remain as an optional thing or whatever that's fine in my opinion just do away with those useless terms you mentioned. My stance hasn't really changed since the first time I commented.

 

[CurrySenpai]

On second thought, wouldn't the easiest solution here be to simply disallow usage of subjective "this worse is very strong/weak", "this verse is somewhat strong/weak", et cetera statements within the "Power of the Verse" sections via an official instruction rule? The rest of the information within those sections does not seem to cause any harm and is likely recurrently useful for visitors who want a quick overview.

We can still add a new "Scaling" section to our standard layout instructions though.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Standard_Format_for_Verse_Pages

I think with the way this revision has gone, the new "Scaling" section will be replacing the Power of the Verse section due to it functionally being the same but with less "subjectivity".
From how I look at it, "Power of the Verse" feels like something that invites people making somewhat more subjective pieces like "This verse is strong with Tier 8 characters and Concept Manipulation" because you are describing the power of the verse in a scaling sense rather than just from the lens of the verse.
With the scaling section, you have to call to scaling confined to the verse itself and calcs within the verse, giving readers a quick way to get important information on characters and info available

But isn't it more useful and easily applied to simply instruct our members to keep those sections updated, to avoid subjective statements, etc., meaning to allegorically renovate the house in a sensible manner, rather than tear down the entire building to build a new one?

I think even with the new scaling section, things not being updated, especially verse pages, can still happen. If anything it falls upon verse supports to keep pages like this updated, but I don't think we're tearing down the entire building, we're essentially applying new foundation to the house to help prop it up better.

I personally think that it is an important niché and that we should probably figure out a way to restructure the power of the verse section to turn more useful instead of deleting it.

I wouldn't know how we could restructure it, but maybe something along the lines of actually P&As? And potentially how strong those may be, especially if stuff is smurf hax or "layered". If we go with this, we could simply change it to "Powers of the verse"

 

[Antvasima]

I still think that it is unnecessary and overzealous to completely get rid of all the powers and abilities sections, rather than just the bad parts of them. There is still useful information within many of them, so all of this would be lots of work for no true benefit, and I think that the information there would act as a good complement to sections explaining the scaling.

 

[CurrySenpai]

I still think that it is unnecessary and overzealous to completely get rid of all the powers and abilities sections, rather than just the bad parts of them. There is still useful information within many of them, so all of this would be lots of work for no true benefit, and I think that the information there would act as a good complement to ones explaining the scaling.

We could go with my last suggestion, turn it into "Powers of the verse" and take some of the P&A and Hax sections of the old one and put them there.

 

[Antvasima]

I still think that it is best to just clean up the power of the verse sections by removing "this verse is strong/weak" mentions, make them more matter of fact, and add scaling sections right underneath them.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Your input would be very appreciated regarding the following posts.

I think that the section itself is useful, but how it normally is doesn't give someone who doesn't know the verse a good leg to stand on. They should mention common abilities or scaling chains. Just vague descriptions doesn't really help anything.

 

[Wokistan]

I think the new verse page I made for Project Moon demonstrates how the section doesn't offer anything of substance that a scaling aid doesn't. I kept a power of the verse section around anyways, and it reads as follows.

Most human combatants of the verse are Small Building level, with the more exalted among them capping out at City Block level. The nonhumans tend to be more powerful as a whole, though their pinnacle is relatively similar to the apex of the humans at City Block level, barring two characters who reach as high as Universe Level+ under unusual circumstances. The verse stands out far more in terms of abilities, however. Mind Manipulation, Immortality, Resurrection, and Resistance Negation are just a handful of abilities common to Abnormalities, and while an average fixer isn't as likely to have the same variety of powers they're still liable to be far more tenacious and durable than is typical due to the commonplace nature of bodily enhancements present in the verse.

The uni+ characters don't have profiles yet and won't for a long time because their abilities are inclusive of those of a huge amount of other profiles. The physical information is far less detailed than what the scaling aid shows, only really able to express the low and high end without establishing who goes to what. The scaling aid doesn't mention the four random powers I chose to put in power of the verse, sure, but how helpful is it really to say that "Somewhere in this franchise, there is mind control immortality resurrection and resistance negation" anyways? I don't think people are really searching for abilities like that on a series wide level. Meanwhile the scaling aid's utility is clear. A lot of series, especially anime, have a bad habit of ending up with scaling chains that are unintelligible to people not already familiar with the series. As the people who make the profiles assume everyone has more information than they do, they don't realize that if you have no context it is very easy to be unable to find a source feat when 20 profiles all scale to it in some convoluted way. A scaling aid clears things up in a centralized location; the benefit to having one is clear. It's something we should encourage regardless, but as it also renders "power of the verse" pretty redundant, I don't see what's the big attachment to keeping power of the verse.

 

[DMUA]

Bump

 

[Firestorm808]

Overall, using a scaling section seems fine.

 

[DMUA]

I think even those against Power of the Verse being removed (though, that's not exactly the majority of people here) were fine with the scaling section, should we try implementing that? Who wants to check Curry's suggestion and edit that into the Verse page template?

 

[Vzearr]

Would it be fine if I started removing "The verse is ... strong"? Since that seems to have been widely accepted.

 

[Therefir]

I think even those against Power of the Verse being removed (though, that's not exactly the majority of people here) were fine with the scaling section, should we try implementing that? Who wants to check Curry's suggestion and edit that into the Verse page template?

I want to see this applied in a real verse page and see how we go from there.

 

[CurrySenpai]

I want to see this applied in a real verse page and see how we go from there.

I would volunteer SAO but that verse page is already longer than what's normal so I don't wanna inflate it more

 

[GarrixianXD]

I don’t see the Power of the Verse section as something that should be abnormally long to the point which users are tired of scrolling through it.

I personally oppose this proposal as the powers of the verse section thoroughly explains the overall potency of the entire verse; it entails the tier they cap at as a short-cut, instead of needing the reader to spend a lot of time on finding a god-tier character of the verse.

Though, however, I do see tabber or toggle boxes as a solution. But removing the power of the verse section is just unnecessary and it’ll just take more effort for people who just want to know the power of the god tiers of the verse.

 

[DMUA]

I don’t see the Power of the Verse section as something that should be abnormally long to the point which users are tired of scrolling through it.

Yes, I agree-

I personally oppose this proposal

... I think a few things were miscommunicated. The main issue is that it's either unnecessarily long and doesn't convey the information well, or just outright conveys the information poorly as a whole in a lazy writeup. It does not in fact thoroughly explain anything, if you somehow found an example for that, a dozen more bad ones can be pulled just as easily.

it entails the tier they cap at as a short-cut, instead of needing the reader to spend a lot of time on finding a god-tier character of the verse

Who even does this? Most of the time the most powerful character is what's commonly talked about anyways, so it wouldn't be some epic endeavour to just find them in the characters section, I dunno why someone would randomly pick a verse they know nothing about just to see it's strongest thing (and this would be covered by the scaling section proposals anyways)

 

[GarrixianXD]

... I think a few things were miscommunicated. The main issue is that it's either unnecessarily long and doesn't convey the information well, or just outright conveys the information poorly as a whole in a lazy writeup. It does not in fact thoroughly explain anything, if you somehow found an example for that, a dozen more bad ones can be pulled just as easily.

As long as it encompasses and clearly summarises the overall power of the verse characters then I don't see that much of an issue. And I already proposed a solution for the long and wordy writing. A bad write-up could be rewritten and improved; it doesn't need to be straight-up deleted.

Who even does this? Most of the time the most powerful character is what's commonly talked about anyways, so it wouldn't be some epic endeavour to just find them in the characters section, I dunno why someone would randomly pick a verse they know nothing about just to see it's strongest thing (and this would be covered by the scaling section proposals anyways)

I see many verse pages with god-tier characters hidden right at the bottom of the page or embedded in tabbers. It would make the work rather difficult compared to reading off what's said in the power of the verse section. A lot of visitors off-site only visit our page to know the tiers of the god-tier characters; it sounds absurd, but I've seen a ridiculous amount of users who do that.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@DMUA What are the current conclusions here?

 

[DMUA]

The thread isn't that long, you could just read it

Primarily Therefir wanted to see the "scaling section" proposal applied to a verse page but apparently nobody's really signed up to do that, and I can't really do so myself since I don't really associate with series that have particularly intricate scaling

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

The thread isn't that long, you could just read it

Primarily Therefir wanted to see the "scaling section" proposal applied to a verse page but apparently nobody's really signed up to do that, and I can't really do so myself since I don't really associate with series that have particularly intricate scaling

@Antvasima How should we proceed from here?

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima How should we proceed from here?

I think that some version of the following seem like good solutions:

I still think that it is best to just clean up the power of the verse sections by removing "this verse is strong/weak" mentions, make them more matter of fact, and add scaling sections right underneath them.

I think that the section itself is useful, but how it normally is doesn't give someone who doesn't know the verse a good leg to stand on. They should mention common abilities or scaling chains. Just vague descriptions doesn't really help anything.

Would it be fine if I started removing "The verse is ... strong"? Since that seems to have been widely accepted.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I still think that it is best to just clean up the power of the verse sections by removing "this verse is strong/weak" mentions, make them more matter of fact, and add scaling sections right underneath them.

Can I get to applying this?

 

[DMUA]

Did you see any of the many, many staff members who have commented on this thread support that measure?

 

[Antvasima]

Which staff members have commented here previously? I can send a notification to them and ask them to evaluate my suggested solutions here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Not sure entirely what I said before, but I think instead of removing it outright; some ground rules about making simplified overview of the various tiers of what most characters scale from, and what it peaks are whether in the form of a god tier character and/or weapon is fine to list. As well as listing notable speed ratings and list of power and abilities. I'd rule out starting up with generic, "Very powerful verse" description or other statements that are similar or are the generic opposite description.

 

[Vzearr]

Did you see any of the many, many staff members who have commented on this thread support that measure?

Better safe than sorry.

 

[Vzearr]

Bump.