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Removing History and Temporal erasure from High-Godly

DaReaperMan

DaReaperMan

Bronze Supporter
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Permission from @Antvasima

While I said I wouldn't know how to word it I'll try my hand anyway.

First of all, let's see what the issue is with these two being in High-Godly.

1. Some people argue it is too vague, most notably and @Rez, which I can see, after all being erased from history and time is extremely vague in of itself, as the former doesn't exactly mean the present, as History is linked to the past, this could just as easily be achieved by someone with Type 1 Acausality. And temporal erasure doesn't exactly mean someone's very concepts or forms of being was erased, merely the time.

Antvasima believes that Temporal erasure should be counted as a higher form of Mid-Godly Regeneration

Agree: @Antvasima, @DaReaperMan, @Rez, @Mr._Bambu, @Everything12,

Neutral: @LordGriffin1000,

Disagree:
 
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I was hoping for something more elaborate, but oh well.

Anyway, I also think that being temporally erased should just be counted as a higher form of Mid-Godly regeneration, not comparable to recovering from having the metaphysical concepts that allows you to exist erased.
 
@AKM sama @Promestein @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @Colonel_Krukov @Shadowbokunohero @Crazylatin77 @Jvando @Zaratthustra @SamanPatou @Just_a_Random_Butler @ElixirBlue @Dino_Ranger_Black @JustSomeWeirdo @LordGriffin1000 @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest @The_Impress @Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Therefir @DMUA @Jasonsith @Armorchompy @KieranH10 @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @Amelia_Lonelyheart @DragonGamerZ913

What do you think about this?
 
Theglassman12 said:
Can you elaborate on what you mean by “it can be achieved by type 1 Acausality”? I don’t understand what you mean by that
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Type 1 Acausality is time paradox Immunity. If someone's history was erased someone with Type 1 Acausality would survive it. Ones history is also not required for someone to exist, so there's that too.
 
DaReaperMan said:
Type 1 Acausality is time paradox Immunity. If someone's history was erased someone with Type 1 Acausality would survive it. Ones history is also not required for someone to exist, so there's that too.
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That has nothing to do with regeneration though. Acausality makes you unaffected by changes in your past, which mean no regeneration is taking place, it’s like saying someone has high regen because they resist matter manipulation on an atomic level. Being erased from history would mean you no longer exist from the past, present and future, mid godly is merely having your mind body and soul be erased and then regenerating your body from that. History is you being erased from all points in history and not just that one point in time.
 
Theglassman12 said:
History is you being erased from all points in history and not just that one point in time.
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Ignoring the fact that the term history erasure itself is way too vague. How is that any superior to being erased from one point in history I mean the end result is still the same the character is being erased physically and metaphysically nothing related to the fundamental aspects of their very being is being erased.

Not to mention this very same effect can be achieved via creation of time paradoxes too.
 
This is essentially confusing immorality with invulnerability.

E.g; If character A had type 1 acausality and they were killed in the past, their present and future selfs wouldn't regenerate instead nothing would happen to them since they have time paradox immunity.

While if Character B was killed in the past and they present/future selves were erased as a result of a paradox but then they later came back then that's a combination of regeneration, immorality and a degree of acausality (Depending on the context within the verse).

Tho personally I was always iffy that historical erasure was treated as High-Godly.
 
Because every single point in time across your past present and future is being erased. Mid godly only covers your mind body and soul being erased and that’s it. High godly is that plus more, with being erased from every point in the timeline/across history to where you never existed.

And how exactly does that prove Acausality covers high godly regeneration? Acausality is again you being immune to the effects of the past, regeneration implies you were affected in some way, and time paradoxes vary across fiction to fiction, if I go back in time and kill someone at their infancy, they’d be dead but their existence would still remain since their body is there, nothing about their mind body and soul was erased since they’d just be dead, being erased across history is you never existing across any point in time, no one would remember you, All of your actions would essentially be undone, and likely many more effects.
 
Theglassman12 said:
And how exactly does that prove Acausality covers high godly regeneration? Acausality is again you being immune to the effects of the past, regeneration implies you were affected in some way, and time paradoxes vary across fiction to fiction, if I go back in time and kill someone at their infancy, they’d be dead but their existence would still remain since their body is there, nothing about their mind body and soul was erased since they’d just be dead, being erased across history is you never existing across any point in time, no one would remember you, All of your actions would essentially be undone, and likely many more effects.
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Assuming this Verse doesn't follow multiverse theory killing someone before they were created (not as an fetus but as an sperm) meaning essentially killing their parents before they reach puberty will also give exactly these same results

And what you described is that it's erasure across time meaning their soul,body and mind are being erased at different points in time I fail to see how someone with mid godly won't be able to regenerate from this and you did not explain how it's affecting the fundamental aspects of their being

Basically nothing related to the fundamental aspects of their being is being erased. It's just physical and metaphysical erasure happening across different points of time
 
The point of high-godly was a regeneration from literally nothing on all levels. This of course has a bit of problems because of our lack of standards about how non-physical levels work, but that is another problem in itself.

The idea here is if the different "yous" from across the timeline make up a singular atemporal existence of you. If that is normally the norm and someone has an ability that makes its own existence unique across the timeline, then it's simply that it has a different configuration of what that being "is" than anything that I think really changes our standards (even more when they aren't really that clear).

Of course, this still would have problems for non-physical existences that are by norm outside physical space-time, because those "metaphysical essences" are already not bound by physical time and is just one across the entire timestream, although you could say that is just a soul with said acausality and what I said before already answer that. However in the end , if there's a problem, then it's a bit more deep than that and the history and temporal thing is more of an example for when a random being has those as components of its existence than really that regen from history and temporal destruction itself.
 
Which again makes them not Acausal if that’s the case, meaning they aren’t immune to time paradoxes. Which again Acausal makes you immune to changes in your past, it’s not tied to regeneration since you weren’t affected in the first place, by this logic people who resist atomic destruction has high regen.

if their mind and soul and body were erased and that was it, they’d still exist in the past, that alone means something more fundamental exists within said character. There’s characters that would still remember said victim of erasure due to experience with them in the past. Being erased across history would make you be gone to the point no one ever remembers you. Nothing about the characters life experience, interactions, etc. would even be a thing for everyone else, thats something more fundamental about them then their mind and soul.
 
Theglassman12 said:
if their mind and soul and body were erased and that was it, they’d still exist in the past, that alone means something more fundamental exists within said character. There’s characters that would still remember said victim of erasure due to experience with them in the past. Being erased across history would make you be gone to the point no one ever remembers you. Nothing about the characters life experience, interactions, etc. would even be a thing for everyone else, thats something more fundamental about them then their mind and soul.
Click to expand...
It's still just physical and metaphysical erasure nothing related to their fundamental being is actually being erased people not remembering the character more so is just an side effect of how the erasure is actually happening
 
As I said before, that depends a lot.

If in a determined universe there's no necessity of a being to have a soul, and every human being is simply a physical body following chemical reactions with a certain degree of freedom, then there's no metaphysical soul or mind to bound that existence outside of the body (Such as to how we can consider that being as the same human when more than 90% of its atoms are different each year) and you might even say that there's no temporal bound of that "being" across history other than individual atoms that had some causal relationship between them.

The same can be said with basically any possible configuration of what a "being" mean and that will end up changing across various series, and that is why our standards, are a bit vague with standards that can fit as many possible configurations as possible within its multiple layers, the rest is individual settings that should be explained in those series' pages.
 
If their soul existed then it would only have their material body be gone. Erased would imply your mind and soul is gone too so idk why you’re mentioning that to begin with.

again not all fiction functions the same, especially when you have other works of fiction specifically target other characters memories to be erased on top of the existence of said character. So it’s not just a side effect.
 
I don't really get the problem.

Low Godly is regeneration from physical existence erasure.

Mid Godly is regeneration from things that survive in some sense even after total destruction of the body, such as the soul.

High Godly is regeneration from getting removed (either via time manipulation or conceptual manipulation) to the point where not anyone single trace of this being existed in the first place, including their soul. If their soul or essence still exists, then it's not High Godly, but it often doesn't and comes back alongside the person regenerating.

It's not at all confusing and separation like this is highly common within fiction (notably Doctor Who and Bastard!!). Removing it is unnecessary and would just cause more confusion.

after all being erased from history and time is extremely vague in of itself, as the former doesn't exactly mean the present, as History is linked to the past

That's entirely dependent on the mechanics of the verse. In which case, they don't get High Godly.

this could just as easily be achieved by someone with Type 1 Acausality.

Yes, but what if it's explicitly not? There's a few characters like this in fiction who've regenerated after being erased from all of history and bounced into a collapsing alternate universe. Also, Acausality wouldn't necessarily help if someone erases a character from time-space directly rather than removing their past.

And temporal erasure doesn't exactly mean someone's very concepts or forms of being was erased, merely the time.

Time is one singular aspect that can give High Godly. It's not time and conceptual manipulation, it's time or conceptual manipulation.

At best, I feel we should maybe crack down on who gets High Godly. There's some characters that have some form of incorporeal/acausal essence to reform their bodies from time-space erasure, such as Pennywise (though he's a different case because he doesn't regenerate, he makes avatars). Such characters (I believe the Source of All evil is one such character, since evil is technically extant throughout all history in that verse) shouldn't get High Godly just for getting erased from time-space and regenerating. But, at the same time, there genuinely are characters who've come back from this kind of stuff.

The thread's basically saying "if it doesn't apply in these instances, it shouldn't apply at all."
 
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Neutral

Personally I would say someone's existence in a timeline makes for a very good example of "all information associated with them" since it includes their entire lives and all cause and effect associated with them. Though I can also understand the proposal about it just being a combo of mid godly and acausality. Hence neutral

Edit: wtf forgot to see it was staff discussion lol
 
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I disagree, being erased from time means that you're erased from that plane, this should include your information of ever existing, it's a fundamental aspect of oneself and regenerating from this should qualify for HGR.
 
Yeah no, having your entire traces gone isn't just merely side effect, it is all reality destruction, which sometimes, I'm not even seeing it as anything inferior to conceptual destruction that more or less has a very similar aftermath other than having your essence lost (we might even say that all history erasure equates to it via the domino effect nature of concept). Type 1 acausality argument is one thing, but what if the context isn't? What if those characters also regenerate their entire existences on all snapshots of time at once? On this case, we have to take it case by case.

Disagree.
 
@ByAsura @Executor_N0

Do you have any suggestions for how we can better clarify our standards so not every character who is a living universe, gets destroyed, and comes back afterwards, gets High-Godly?
 
Some people actually seemed confused with the difference between Type 1 Acausality and "Being erased from the pages of history". Actually, the former is simply being able to survive without a history, while the other is a character being able to restore their history. Similar to how there's a difference between a character who can survive head decapitation and a character who can literally grow their head back.

Anyway, I always viewed being erased from the pages of history to be the very definition of High-Godly with conceptual existence erase just being added more recently after True Godly got removed from the wiki. I honestly do not mind either way what happens, but if anything, if people want to separate "Erased from all time and space" and "Being erased on a very concept of yourself", that sounds more like a reason to bring back True-Godly regeneration IMO.
 
I think that we shouldn't bring back true godly regeneration. It would be too complicated to apply and seems unnecessary.
 
Let me say something, if someone is erased from.history would the person still be remembered? Cause if the person is remembered then his history not truly erased. But if someone whose history was truly erased regenerated then I guess high godly is fine
 
Pain_to12 said:
Let me say something, if someone is erased from.history would the person still be remembered? Cause if the person is remembered then his history not truly erased. But if someone whose history was truly erased regenerated then I guess high godly is fine
Click to expand...
I mean…machina does that and those that are killed can still be remembered, so I kind of disagree
 
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