Removing hax resistances from Shadow, Espio, and Silver

[JJSliderman]

So, atm, Shadow, Silver, and Espio (games) are given resistances to mind manip, possession, and soul binding, with the justification of resisting the Ifrit. Now I don't have problem with Ifrit having this hax, moreso that there isn't really any indication the aforementioned characters resisted it.

This resistance isn't applied to the other Rivals characters because they are affected, but when they are affected, they show text on screen clarifying as such. And even though the player character in those scenes isn't affected, that's likely due to gameplay purposes (or maybe the Ifrit just chose not to hax these characters).

While the Ifrit's first move was hax in those scenes, no showing of said hax was present in the Shadow/Silver/Espio/Metal Sonic scenarios, likely due to the existence of Metal 3.0 as an antagonist character already fighting against the players. But there's no real reason to say the Ifrit's hax was resisted by these four characters when, again, there's no indication of it using the hax, and the only argument of why it would use the hax was that it would be inconsistent with the Ifrit's other portrayals (even though Ifrit not haxxing the other four characters when they are playable and lack the resistance is also a plot hole)

The resistances to mind and soul manipulation and possession should be removed from Shadow, Silver, and Espio's profiles.

 

[DragonLord]

I believe the Justification was that Ifrit’s Hax is passive, as the moment they Awakened Tails instantly went under Ifrit’s control with no indication Ifrit had to use any effort

 

[JJSliderman]

Not really sure if that’s enough to say it’s passive, but I’m tired rn. I’ll pick this back up tomorrow.

 

[DragonLord]

I believe the Justification was that Ifrit’s Hax is passive, as the moment they Awakened Tails instantly went under Ifrit’s control with no indication Ifrit had to use any effort

I should also note that, going by the stage after, Ifrit was seemingly underground and couldn’t see Tails in the first place, I don’t think there’s any indication they know who Tails is, making Ifrit’s first move be Mind Hax (if it’s not passive) on a person they don’t know and can’t see odd I suppose

 

[Theuser789]

Disagree, your entire argument is that the Ifrit didn't explicitly say "I AM USING MY HAX AND YOU ARE RESISTING", and you just handwave all inconsistancies, it's way more likely it's hax is passive and they resists, otherwise the story would have told us the Ifrit could control them, your argument creates more problems than it solves and just handwaving it is a terrible argument

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

This resistance isn't applied to the other Rivals characters because they are affected, but when they are affected, they show text on screen clarifying as such. And even though the player character in those scenes isn't affected, that's likely due to gameplay purposes (or maybe the Ifrit just chose not to hax these characters).

If you play as Tails, Sonic and other characters are possessed by the Ifrit in the first moments he shows any signal of that by the current instance they are facing, unlike Shadow, Silver and Espio for instance.

Ifrit's soul manip, and mind manip works by possessing one'soul in order to have advantage against the previously mentioned characters for the instance of that, like Tails mentions that his power is to bind one's soul, it's one of the first things he does in-character.

I should also mention that Ifrit's mere presence is shown to possess people facing him, Shadow and Metal Sonic aren't affected by that.

 

[JJSliderman]

If his presence haxxes the characters, then why are the player characters without the resistance not affected by the hax?

The argument for it being passive is that Ifrit has no text before it does it, and it happens as soon as it shows up. Even though it being passive is debunked by it selecting characters that get haxxed depending on the route, and the characters who don’t get haxxed being able to beat Ifrit even without resisting it’s hax. So there’s nothing actually proving it is passive, and so Shadow and Silver and Espio could have just not been targeted.

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

If his presence haxxes the characters, then why are the player characters without the resistance not affected by the hax?

Because of Game mechanics, all other characters are shown to be possessed by the hax when you play on a secundary option, like the Tails example i have given upon occasion, or Rouge being possessed by the Ifrit when you play as Knuckles but not Knuckles himself.

The argument for it being passive is that Ifrit has no text before it does it, and it happens as soon as it shows up. Even though it being passive is debunked by it selecting characters that get haxxed depending on the route, and the characters who don’t get haxxed being able to beat Ifrit even without resisting it’s hax. So there’s nothing actually proving it is passive, and so Shadow and Silver and Espio could have just not been targeted.

The Ifrit doesn't chose a particular target to apply his techniques in the same occasion where he appears, he is mindless like the Time Eater without a controller.

 

[JJSliderman]

Game mechanics isn’t a good argument, they could have easily had a moment where the character was affected and just fought it off instead of creating a plot hole where a character who was originally vulnerable to the hax suddenly isn’t when you flip the scenario, for no reason.
The only way that could work is if the Ifrit was targeting.

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

Game mechanics isn’t a good argument, they could have easily had a moment where the character was affected and just fought it off instead of creating a plot hole where a character who was originally vulnerable to the hax suddenly isn’t when you flip the scenario, for no reason.

Literally this isn't a plot hole, all the other characters in the Rivals cast are shown to be affected when you use the secundary option, it is way likely to be just a game mechanic rather than an actual plot point the player being not affected considering that the only characters who are not shown to be affected are Shadow and the rest mentioned up.

 

[JJSliderman]

It’s still a plot hole though, that this being who you describe as mindless and haxxes everything in its presence without it thinking about it, decides for some reason not to hax one of the characters in a scenario, but then does hax them in the other half of the same scenario and leaving the original hax target unaffected.

 

[Theuser789]

If his presence haxxes the characters, then why are the player characters without the resistance not affected by the hax?

This is some backwards logic right here, the reason they don't have resistance is because they can get haxed in the other story, however that doesn't mean that when you play as it they aren't resisting

It's complicated but my point is that you can't use "characters who don't have resistance get haxed, therefore DEBOONKED" because they DO resist it when you play as them, we don't list it however because Sega made them be haxed in the other route, it is a Schrödinger's cat situation where they resist and don't at the same time

Therefore your arguments don't work on this faulty logic

 

[Theuser789]

The reason why Shadow and co have definitive resistances is because no matter the route they don't get haxed, you are the only one creating plot holes here by assuming the Ifrit just didn't hax them just cause

 

[JJSliderman]

Or, alternatively, the easier answer is that Ifrit targets with its hax and it didn’t target Shadow and others because it’s not present in their stories.

 

[Theuser789]

Except that's idiotic, why would the Ifrit be smart enough to select who he haxes and actively use it, and yet simply not use it against it's bigger threats? You are giving the Ifrit inteligence and yet you make it act dumber then when it didn't have it

Debates need evidence and argumentation, not "this is what I think is right"

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

Or, alternatively, the easier answer is that Ifrit targets with its hax and it didn’t target Shadow and others because it’s not present in their stories.

The Ifrit doesn't even chose a particular target to affect when people is near his presence to begin with, and he isn't smart enough to even go off this point.

 

[JJSliderman]

I think the argument that “characters resist Ifrit’s hax until they don’t” is similarly lacking in evidence.

And if gameplay mechanics is the reason some characters aren’t haxxed even when they lack resistance, then gameplay mechanics can also say the presence of Metal Sonic 3.0 is why no characters are haxxed in the Shadow and Silver routes, because the rival character role was already fulfilled, the role that Ifrit’s hax performed in the other routes.

 

[DragonLord]

Technically both of them arguably have a limited resistance as Sonic notes that Tails isn’t “Fully controlled”

looking at the scene, I think it’s more clearly something passive, as it happens before Ifrit even appears fully

 

[JJSliderman]

It can't be passive, or both characters would have been affected. And it's not like either has that resistance, they both can get haxxed depending on who is played as.

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

I should also note that this isn't the first time that Shadow breaks out of mind control for instance, he did the same against Black Doom.

The presence of 3.0 assuming the role of an antagonist is purely nonsense to disprove the other points because the Ifrit was still fighting against them in the first place.

 

[JJSliderman]

The Ifrit fought in the routes where it did hax characters as well, but it fought alongside the rival character. In the other routes, it was the one affected by hax. But since Metal 3.0 was already there, that hax didn’t need to happen in terms of gameplay. Regardless, it still doesn’t solve the plot hole of Ifrit’s “passive” hax not affecting the other character in the scenario.

 

[Theuser789]

It can't be passive, or both characters would have been affected. And it's not like either has that resistance, they both can get haxxed depending on who is played as.

Did you even read what I even posted? Because you literally just repeated stuff that I debunked and just said "no u". Gameplay mechanics was NEVER my argument, my argument is that they do resist it in their routes, but since we don't know what is the canon one we can't give them a resistance, you completely ignored my point

I think the argument that “characters resist Ifrit’s hax until they don’t” is similarly lacking in evidence.

Good job conceding you lack evidence for what you are claiming, however unlike us we have show proof, YOU know have to show proof of the following: "Ifrit is smart enough to target certain people", "Why Ifrit didn't hax the other character if he is smart enough to target people" and "why didn't the Ifrit target Shadow and co if he is as smart as you are saying"

None of what we are arguing has these problems, first question doesn't exist because it's passive (evidence show), second because they resist when they are the MC, and third because they simply resist

 

[Theuser789]

Technically both of them arguably have a limited resistance as Sonic notes that Tails isn’t “Fully controlled”

looking at the scene, I think it’s more clearly something passive, as it happens before Ifrit even appears fully

This is probably solved by giving them "limited" resistance as stated in this post, which explains why the character who resists changes depending on the route

 

[JJSliderman]

Did you even read what I even posted? Because you literally just repeated stuff that I debunked and just said "no u". Gameplay mechanics was NEVER my argument, my argument is that they do resist it in their routes, but since we don't know what is the canon one we can't give them a resistance, you completely ignored my point

So basically you're making up an argument that some routes are non-canon while others are as a way to argue why Ifrit doesn't affect one character and does affect the other, and yet you have no proof. Seems fairly hypocritical, but at least it is a decent argument.

If the argument that Ifrit is mindless and that's why it's hax is passive then, that should be said on its page. In fact the page actively goes against that, saying it "displays a degree of cunning and smarts in combat", which would line up with the interpretation that it is targeting characters with its hax, making it not passive.

Characters getting limited resistance based on the "not fully controlled" thing, though, that is feasible.

I should also note that this isn't the first time that Shadow breaks out of mind control for instance, he did the same against Black Doom.

He also gets mind-controlled by the Voxai later.

 

[DragonLord]

With lack of a known canonical Story, I purpose it be best to give both Sonic and Tails Limited Resistance to Ifrit’s Hax, as ether way they resist being fully controlled, keeping the resistance on everyone else

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

He also gets mind-controlled by the Voxai later.

It isn't an contradiction for this kind of thing, unless you want to say that Sonic doesn't resist Dark Gaia's possession due to the Ifrit possessing him.

Both are different cases, one has a power that works differently from the other.

 

[Theuser789]

So basically you're making up an argument that some routes are non-canon while others are as a way to argue why Ifrit doesn't affect one character and does affect the other, and yet you have no proof. Seems fairly hypocritical, but at least it is a decent argument.

No??? That's not what I am arguing at all, this is the third time I have to explain it. My argument is that the characters resist the hax in their own route, but since we don't know which one is the true canon we haven't given a resistance, I never claimed what was canon and what was non canon, the reason why the other 4 have it is because they resist it in all routes. Even then I said to give them limited resistance to explain the routes inconsistancies

If the argument that Ifrit is mindless and that's why it's hax is passive then, that should be said on its page. In fact the page actively goes against that, saying it "displays a degree of cunning and smarts in combat", which would line up with the interpretation that it is targeting characters with its hax, making it not passive.

Except your interpretation makes it even dumber by making him not use it just cause, also pages aren't WoG, especially outdated ones like the Ifrit

He also gets mind-controlled by the Voxai later.

Ok and? The Voxai are stronger, afterall what stopped Sonic was the chaos emerald afterall

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with Theuser

 

[JJSliderman]

If Ifrit is actually completely mindless then it being passive is fine, otherwise it being targeting is arguable as well I think.

The limited resistance thing doesn't fix the inconsistency, since characters still go from limited resistance to complete resistance between routes for seemingly no reason.

 

[DragonLord]

The limited resistance thing doesn't fix the inconsistency, since characters still go from limited resistance to complete resistance between routes for seemingly no reason.

With a Limited resistance it be possible but not definite they could not be controlled, so simply in the Sonic version, Sonic fights back enough, in the Tails version, Tails fights back enough, simple

 

[JJSliderman]

There isn't really fighting of any kind present for the character that isn't affected though, they just move to the next scene as if nothing happened to them at all.

 

[DragonLord]

There isn't really fighting of any kind present for the character that isn't affected though, they just move to the next scene as if nothing happened to them at all.

This isn’t really hard evidence against Limited Resistance, the inner workings of the ability doesn’t inherently dictate there must be a on screen struggle, not all Mind Hax works the same

 

[JJSliderman]

So basically, you're suggesting that the four characters who can be affected just have limited resistance that sometimes can become a full resistance depending on the plot, while the other four characters just have a full resistance.

If there was solid proof of Ifrit's hax being passive though, that would be great.

 

[DragonLord]

So basically, you're suggesting that the four characters who can be affected just have limited resistance that sometimes can become a full resistance

it doesn’t become Full Resistance, a limited resistance can still, you know, resist something, it’s just got it’s limits

 

[JJSliderman]

It's the same hax in all scenarios, yet somehow the limited resistance works sometimes, but doesn't work other times? Kind of weird.

 

[DragonLord]

It's the same hax in all scenarios, yet somehow the limited resistance works sometimes, but doesn't work other times? Kind of weird.

Why would it be weird?, you can just play both scenarios

 

[JJSliderman]

But why would it be different in either scenario? Shouldn't it work for both characters or neither, if they have the same limited resistance working against the same hax?

 

[DragonLord]

But why would it be different in either scenario? Shouldn't it work for both characters or neither, if they have the same limited resistance working against the same hax?

….no?, it can effect them because they have limited Hax resistance, but they still have a chance to fight back, if we imagine this as a timeline thing, there’s 4 possibilities and we can play 2 of those

 

[JJSliderman]

So, headcanon.

 

[DragonLord]

So, headcanon.

Explain why it’s headcanon