Removal of 1-A Root.

[Wankbreaker]

The Tier 0 Root thread has frozen into an eternal sleep, so I will do everyone else the favor of collecting things that’ll make you go “Seriously? Why was this glossed over?”

Before any Tier 0 discussion can go on, I believe these should be addressed, as it threatens even the Root’s current 1-A tier. Because quite frankly, it doesnt meet the requirements of the system.

1. The Root being at the “top” of dimensional theory, and not “above” it.
This isnt so important on it’s own, but it WILL play a key role later down the line of this CRT,as this phrasing is problematic.
I will lazily paste this from ultima’s own CRT, as I checked this and it’s correct.

Mirror Moon translation:
In short, the Holy Grail War is not a battle to obtain the Holy Grail, but a ritual to escape to the outside world. Attempts to reach the outside world. According to hermeticism, there's a power that governs dimensional theory outside of this world. It's called the 'swirl of the origin', and it's a coordinate that's considered to be the beginning of all things. It's the start and the end of all creation. It's the seat of God, recording everything and able to create anything.


Japanese: 神秘学の語るところによれば、この世界の外側には次元論の頂点に在る“力”があるという。 あらゆる出来事の発端とされる座標。それが、すべての魔術師の悲願たる『根源の渦』……万物の始まりにして終焉しゅうえん、この世の全てを記録し、この世の全てを創造できるという神の座である。
Source: Fate/Stay Night

The focus here being twofold. Firstly, there is this sentence: "次元論の頂点"

"次元論" = Dimensional theory. Theory of dimensions.

"頂点" = Apex, summit, pinnacle.

Secondly, there's this: あらゆる出来事の発端とされる座標. "座標" meaning "Coordinate," referring to the Root.

2. The Root being an “outer layer” of the world, and therefore an extension of it.

根源への到達
魔術用語
「世界」の外郭にあるという、この世のすべてが記録された、万物の始まりにして終焉の場所。あらゆる魔術師たちの最終目標であり、始まりの御三家もまた、根源に至るために聖杯召喚システムを構築した。



"Reaching the Root
Mage Terminology
A place said to be at the periphery of the 'world,' where everything in this world is recorded, being the beginning and end of all things. It is the ultimate goal for all mages, and the founding three families also constructed the Holy Grail summoning system to reach the Root"

The kanji of interest is “ 外郭”,denoting an outer layer or edge, basically.

Why is this a problem?

Here is a sentence from the 1-A part of the tiering system.

“Characters or objects residing in higher states of existence surpassing material composition as a whole, and who are therefore completely unreachable and inaccessible to any and all extensions of the aforementioned structures.”

Obviously, the root being the “outer edge of the world”, is still an extension of “The World” (which has space-time), despite its superiority. This is supported by the descriptions of the character “Sajyou Manaka.”:

──世界そのものにさえ等しい、万物を生む根源がかたちを成した少女。沙条愛歌。


"The girl who embodies the very Root of all creation, equal to the world itself. Sajyou Manaka.

It is established that she is connected to the Root inverse because of this.

Why is this important to this point? Pay attention to this:

真理と化した女の子であり、すべてを成せる女の子でした。
命を、と望めば命を発生させられる。 ささや まんえん
死を、と囁けば死を蔓延させられる。 つな
世界は彼女と繫がっていて、彼女は世界と繫がっていたのかもしれません。
彼女はおよそ全能でした。
不可能などひとつもない。すべてを操って、成し遂げ、崩し去ることができる。そんな機能をもって ゆえ
しまった故に何事にも楽しみがなくなってしまった彼女は、自分の全能にひとつだけルールを作りまし た。
それは「自分の未来は見ないようにする」というものです。
世界そのものにも等しい彼女は、自分自身に制限を掛けたのです。 かせ
ルール。制限。枷。だって、それぐらいしないと全能はとても退屈で。ヒトのままでいる意味がまるで なくなって、生命活動なんて続けていられない。きっと死んでしまう。 結果的に、彼女の行動は正解だったのでしょう。
まぶた 少なくとも彼女は毎朝眠りから目覚めて、瞼を開けて、呼吸をして、窓越しに空を見上げたり、
さえず 小鳥の囀りへ耳を傾けたり、父へ透き通った視線を向けたりできました。父の言うがままに魔術を
操るあれこれもやってのけました。生まれたばかりの妹に対しては、父や母のように涙を流したりはし ないまでも、他の人間たちがするように、小さな妹の頰を指でつついて、その柔らかさを確かめたりで きました。

She was a girl who became truth itself, a girl who could accomplish everything. If she wished for life, she could create it. If she whispered death, she could spread it. The world might have been connected to her, and she to the world. She was virtually omnipotent. There was not a single thing that was impossible. She could manipulate, achieve, and dismantle everything. Because she had such abilities, she lost enjoyment in everything and decided to create one rule about her omnipotence. That was "to not see her own future."

She, who was almost equal to the world itself, imposed limitations on herself. A rule. A restriction. A shackle. Because without doing that much, omnipotence was very boring. Staying human became meaningless, and continuing life activities wouldn't be possible. She would surely perish. In the end, her action was probably the right decision.

At the very least, every morning she awakened from sleep, opened her eyes, breathed, and looked up at the sky through the window. She could listen to the chirping of small birds and gaze transparently at her father. As her father instructed, she performed various acts of magic. Although she did not shed tears like her father or mother for her newborn sister, she could poke her little sister's cheeks with her fingers, like other humans do, to feel their softness.

“The world might have been connected to her, and she to the world.”

This sentence again implies that the Root is an extension of the world, so to speak.


3. Angra Mainyu making a pathway to the root connected by spatial positions.

Self explanatory. In HA, this happens at the very end of the story.



Angra Mainyu still has some capabilities left over from his time as the greater grail, and the Grail can do this:

have to hyperlink this since the embed is broken.

Notable line being:

英霊を聖杯によって根源の渦を固定化 使役し生き残った者だけが、聖する事


Only the one who survives, utilizing the heroic spirits, is supposed to obtain the Holy Grail, fixate (TL note: or stabilize) the Swirl of the Root by means of the Holy Grail, and eventually reach the Root itself.

Very clear that is a pathway to the root, moving on.


4. The 2nd,3rd,and4th magics.

Gaining true magic in Mahoyo is described as “overcoming a dimensional wall”, and reaching the root.

Source: (https://tri-hermes.org/Novels/Mahoyo/Chapter9.html#scene-7 )

Magic, True Magic, isn't just some manuscript derived from the Swirl of the Root like magecraft is, but something that comes directly from the Root itself."

"As for the Swirl of the Root, well... The simplest way I can describe it so you'll understand is to compare it to the sun. The Sun is really far away, and has been there from the beginning as far as we're concerned. Without it, you and I wouldn't be able to live."

"Magecraft merely lets us take advantage of the Sun's benefits, so to speak. Magecraft is all about imitating or paying for natural phenomena. We can use it to study, practice, and recreate Mystics-mysteries-but it can never truly create them. Actually, no matter how much you learn, you eventually hit a wall. It's like a limiter that human knowledge can never overcome."

"And beyond that wall is where Magic, the Sun itself, exists. To attain it means to go where no one can go, and awaken miracles no one could possibly reproduce. A technique to make things happen that humanity could never hope to accomplish with any amount of time or resources... that's True Magic."

"It's about overcoming that dimensional wall-like, running until you reach the end where you'll find a world with completely different rules from ours. That's the only way you can, well, learn it."

"I told you before that magecraft has no limits, right? Well I meant that it has no limits within the scope of human knowledge. Meanwhile, Magic has lots of limits; as in, it can only do one thing, and one thing alone. Makes sense, right? I mean, we're talking about unique, rule-breaking concepts and mechanisms that exist outside the boundaries of the very universe."

Magic is described as a “reward” for reaching the root.

English: "The place where all knowledge is recorded, where all matters are settled. To see, touch, and understand it makes even the impossible possible. It has gone by many names over the years, but you could say it's where God lives."

Japanese: 根源の渦っていうのは、全ての叡知えいちが記録された位置、全ての事柄が決定された場所。そこを見て、触れて、理解できれば不可能なんて言葉すら作り替えられる。伝承によって呼び名は様々だけど、ようするに神さまのいる位置なんでしょうね

Magic [Term]
A mystery distinct from sorcery. The final destination of magi. "Magic" is that which makes the impossible into the possible, for a given era.

Magics are grouped into 2 categories: Cause (1st,5th) and “effect” (2nd,3rd,4th).

Chapter 12: WITCH ON THE HOLY NIGHT II

TYPE-MOON Lore Database

tri-hermes.org

Tell me something, Aoko. ところで青子。
Your Magic...is it cause, or is it effect...?" おまえの魔法とやらは、手段か、それとも結果か？」

Touko wanted to know if it came before, or came after. 先なのか、後なのか。
Did Aoko need Magic to get her where she needed to go? ある場所を目指す為に魔法を必要としたのか、
Or did she obtain Magic as a result of reaching that place? その場所に到達した為に魔法が出来てしまったのか。

This doesn’t seem too problematic, until you see this statement from KNK.

... I see. In this sense, magi and Magicians were indeed different. Only things such as time and space manipulation were currently beyond the reach of humanity. In an era where limited forms of viewing the past and future had become possible, there were very few things that were indeed impossible.

Obviously, overcoming a space-time barrier to reach a supposedly 1-A realm with time and space manipulation is problematic.

5. Counter Guardian access?

This is, admittedly, the weakest entry in the CRT.

Counter-Guardians, beings of a “higher” dimension, shouldnt have an entry point that leads into a 1-A realm. Yet they do, according to KNK.

“Heroic Spirits are a spiritual phenomenon of a higher order, and the Throne of Heroic Spirits exists in a dimension above this dimension.
They are an existence that transcend time. For the methods of human preservation utilized at Chaldea, there couldn’t be better collaborators. That is because once the contract is signed, they can appear in any era.”

"--- Are you trying to open the road to the origin?

But, how? Even if you don't set out a magical ward to testify that you aren't a mage, you can't fool the will of the dominant race. The only ones you can fool by using a technological ward are other mages. If you use this building a path will definitely open. Since its the realization of the Taeguekdo, a hole would certainly appear. But the first thing to come out of that hole will be a Counter Guardian. As long as we are who we are, there is no way we can stand up to that."

"--- The Counter Force is already acting. The fact that you are in this city. The man who came to rob an empty house for no reason, as if he was possessed by something. The woman who was assaulted and killed on this road that has never known such things in the past. I tried this hard to hide my activities, but the Counter Force has already acted three times.

But that is all. I will not be going any closer to the origin. The many failures I have experienced will not go to waste. There was a time when I didn't know of the power called the Counter Force and tried to open a path, but I couldn't fool its eyes. One time I attempted this with a way to overthrow the Counter Force itself, but it always appeared with strength greater that any I could bring to bear.

There is only one conclusion. I do not have the ability."

And obviously:


Characters or objects residing in higher states of existence surpassing material composition as a whole, and who are therefore completely unreachable and inaccessible to any and all extensions of the aforementioned structures.

This is a great disqualifier for 1-A.

 

[GarrixianXD]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa @Dereck03 @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Agnaa @LephyrTheRevanchist @Everything12 @CrimsonStarFallen @ActuallySpaceMan42 I was asked to tag staff.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I don't think this thread is appropriate atm, because the Root's current 1-A rating is a result of older standards. It just gets needlessly convoluted trying to rationalize that with our new standards and such, and having this alongside another Root thread just makes things disorganized imo

I'd rather there just be one dedicated thread to looking at the Root through the lens of the new tiering system and arriving at a conclusion from there

 

[Wankbreaker]

I don't think this thread is appropriate atm, because the Root's current 1-A rating is a result of older standards. It just gets needlessly convoluted trying to rationalize that with our new standards and such, and having this alongside another Root thread just makes things disorganized imo

I'd rather there just be one dedicated thread to looking at the Root through the lens of the new tiering system and arriving at a conclusion from there

This thread is essentially trying to analyze if it does indeed still qualify.

Trying to upgrade the Root to 0 while it hasn’t been confirmed if it even qualifies for 1-A anymore is skipping a few steps.

In ultima’s own words off-site, he’s been too lazy to check the other thread (probably because of the influx of new posts). A fresh thread like this one actually gets things going.

 

[Firestorm808]

I would consider an Upgrade to Tier 0 and Determining if it retains its current rating as 2 different discussions. Will look at when able.

 

[Firestorm808]

1-A: Outerverse level​

Characters or objects residing in higher states of existence surpassing material composition as a whole, and who are therefore completely unreachable and inaccessible to any and all extensions of the aforementioned structures. Their superiority over such realms, as such, is purely "qualitative"; based entirely on the ontological quality and nature of their existence, rather than any quantitative or numerical principle.

From what I've seen so far, I'm leaning in favor of the OP. Will wait for the opposing party to provide details of any qualitative superiority.