Remember 11 - Where Self is Tier 1

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Since my play through years ago of Ever 17, I have been meaning to play this series, and I finally did, frankly been obsessed with figuring it out the past couple days. I made a blog compiling all the evidence, and explaining possible contradictions which may come up, which ironically turned into "because God allows it", as an answer to everything. Here are my conclusions:

• The Player/That Guy is a nonexistent being which is devoid of everything, which includes space-time, and it perceives all time as a point, nonexistent, and it can freely manipulate the world in whatever way it wants to.
• The Player is just a manifestation/avatar of SELF, which is the nothingness from which all things came from and returns to. SELF controls every human, and the entire world of Remember 11 is the psychological experience of it, containing all archetypes from Jungian Psychology. SELF exists beyond fact and fiction, Illusions and reality, it is the true world, the real world which can only be reached after the transient world, imaginary is lost, and the bridge of the world, symbolic is crossed.

I typically avoid this high tiered stuff, but this genuinely got my interest, from what I can see The Player is 1-A being, SELF is where I , because I don't understand Jungian Psychology and the implications of it on tiering, the mentions of real, imaginary, and symbolic are also very interesting considering what Jacques Lacan defined them as, where if the Symbolic is a set of differentiated elements (signifiers), the Real in itself is undifferentiated, and outside language...

This seems to have some potential for high tiering, but idk if we can definitions for stuff which aren't expanded upon in story, though in this case other psychology aspects such as Jungian psychology are stated be apart of SELF, it's also interesting that in the TIPS system which is what the Player uses to knowing all things which can happen in the world, there is a definition of the thing in itself from Kant, there is a definition for That Guy, who is a manifestation of SELF, which makes sense the Player would understand itself, but there is no definition for SELF

【Ｗｈｅｒｅ　Ｉｓ　“Ｓｅｌｆ”？】
The words that come up many times within the story;
just what might they refer to?
What exactly is "Self"?- TIP 99, The Meaning Behind the Scene Titles

The author comment also mentions that unless you're a dimension above, you can't understand That Guy

Q: The good end for the Satoru route was shocking.
A: Did it leave a bad aftertaste (bitter smile)? This is a story where the characters are saved, but the people watching are not saved. That’s because revenge is the goal of the characters. I haven’t used this kind of ending in more recent titles, but I thought that was the best form of expression given the circumstances at the time of production. If you’re one of the people around Satoru, I’m sure life will go on after the good end. There are still mysteries like the origin of the terabyte disk, but it doesn’t make sense to talk about them. We don’t understand the origin of the universe in the same way. It’s literally a different dimension. When were BW and “That Guy” born? Even if you think about it, you can’t answer it unless you’re one dimension above. Also, seeing all these various explanations from players, I feel bad giving a precise answer… At first I was reluctantly holding back, now I feel like I can’t speak no matter what. It’s thanks to the players who put all their brainpower in solving this story that this story has spread further then I imagined. I’m deeply grateful.-Remember 11 PSP Premium Book

A similar thing was said when That Guy was mistaken for SELF by the game characters

Nakazawa: The plot in this work is “a never-ending revenge story” created by the characters. For everyone that has finished Remember11 already, if you believed that was the true ending, then it is. In Ever17, the player overlooks the game world from above and guides the characters. The story seemed to be a single story that took place in 2017 until it was revealed that one half was in 2017 and the other half was in 2034. This time, I thought I would do the opposite. I created a plot that appeared to be showing two separate stories, and thought it was interesting if the player became the enemy of the characters. The player isn’t necessarily a “good being” for the game characters. Depending on the player’s choices, tragedies can befall them. So are there situations where they might hate the player? If you can express that idea in the story, then it’s a new concept. Surely everyone would be trembling and surprised. If you think about it, it’s absurd and entertaining (laugh).

If that’s the case, is “That Guy” the player?

Nakazawa: So let me explain it like this. “That Guy” isn’t necessarily limited to “the player”, but to the characters, they have no way of distinguishing between us who are “one dimension higher”. To them, we are abstractly like God. You can say that this is a story about rebelling against God.-Infinity Plus Premium Book

So at the very least I think the argument can be made that just like That Guy/The Player has qualitative superiority to the world below which has an unquantifiable amount of universes, due to perceiving them as nonexistent, SELF perceives The Player as nonexistent. Another thing is that all things come from SELF and return to it after death, and in that process of becoming nothing, fact and fiction are jumbled together along with illusions and reality

In the darkness….
My existence…. …fuses, is pulverized, scatters, and falls to lie thick over all…. Soon I filled the world. Transforming into small particles to cover my surroundings. I was blank, like thin air, no more substantial than a heat haze. I knew an instant in eternity, and an eternity in an instant. Fact and fiction jumbled together in chaos…. Illusions and reality…. And finally, zero…. A space containing nothing…. Where the three overlapped, my consciousness settled, and finally vanished.-Kokoro Chapter, Day 2

So SELF is the nothingness which is beyond real and unreal, which I think would make it High 1-A at least, not sure how Jungian archetypes and Lacan imaginary, real and symbolic fits into things.

 

[Re5yh]

High 1-A, lets go!!. Agree with op

 

[Azertyhuuh]

The 1-A level for The Player is very clear.

As for SELF, it has strong contexts that could support High 1-A+ or even Tier 0.

The reason is that it transcends fiction and reality according to the evidence. It is the beginning and the end of everything, it transcends description and definition, and it is undifferentiated.

The other reason that made me say (High 1-A+) at least is that it transcends fiction and reality itself. This places it above any logically possible world, no matter what, because the text states that it transcends fiction and reality (the real and the unreal). This is its meaning, and it cannot be placed only at High 1-A level, as that would contradict the principle that it transcends fiction and reality.

That is, you would be imposing that it is part of a higher reality, or that it itself could be fiction to a higher reality, which contradicts it transcending the real and the unreal.

I prefer the (High 1-A+) level, or perhaps Tier 0, because it has very strong contexts that support this level.

 

[Orioreeem]

Well this does have some high 1-A+ and 0 implication, tho you should tag @SuperNova55555 to see what he thinks

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@SuperNova55555

 

[MSahla]

@SuperNova55555

@ShinMaximillion @Qawsedf234 @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Vietthai96
I think these guys too.

 

[Nonynho]

Very concise, i'd agree

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Sure @ShinMaximillion @Qawsedf234 @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Vietthai96

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I will add something else in a bit when I get back to my computer, which I initially didn't think mattered, basically as already explained the Tips system is how the Player gains knowledge of the world, after it meets another version of itself, it questions its own existence, wondering what "I" is, can probably argue "I" is SELF, so basically SELF is literally how characters identify themselves.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Updated the blog, connected a few dots I didn't see before, basically all souls return to SELF, and become one, same as all simultaneous and conflicting feelings like love and hate become one in SELF.

"I" doesn't exist, it never existed to begin with, the only thing that "exists" is the absolute nothingness of SELF that is anywhere and everywhere.

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

Oh god reading it took over 3 hours…

Hmm… 1-A is fine.

Now, the next part, which is the most important part, is whether regarding SELF/The Real (which the text seems to posit them as the same…? I tried to have a holistic reading of it).

Before adding it worth flagging, Jung and Lacan both descend from Freud actually, and both eventually broke from him in ways that tell you almost everything about the rest of their careers: Jung drifted toward myth and mysticism while Lacan toward linguistics and mathematics. So, um… somewhat unique to see BOTH being presented together…? I guess. However I deem it strange.

The self stuff sounds more Jungian, since it is the Self (the archetype of wholeness, the psyche's true center, larger than and distinct from the ego), the Shadow (disowned/suppressed material, routinely projected onto other people), the Persona (the social mask, yes, that Persona took this concept too literally), and the Anima/Animus (the unconscious contrasexual figure, basically… wait nevermind ignore this part, I shouldn't have mentioned it ), down to individual.

While the Real of Lacan is another stuff

Spoiler: the real concept of Real, Symbolic, Imaginary

1. Imaginary is the register of images; identifications and illusory wholeness. This is the home of the ego and of imaginary rivalry (two egos competing for the same position supposedly, uhhh, like for girls perhaps?). The main illusions of this order are synthesis and duality. If the signifier is the foundation of the symbolic, the signified and signification are part of the Imaginary order.
2. Symbolic is the register of language; the most interesting indeed, law and the signifying chain. The big Other is the pre-existing structural order of language and culture the subject is born into; the Name-of-the-Father (a pun in French on "No of the father" supposedly) is the operator that installs the subject into this order. In other words, big Other and little Other are A and a, which the very awareness of this distinction matters; The little other is the other who is not really other, but a reflection and projection of the ego, which is thus the reason it is imbedded into the Imaginary. Yet, big Other is that by which is not illusionary otherness but true otherness because it cannot be assimilated by identification. Though, it is still pretty much within language, as it is imbedded into Symbolic. We can speak of the other as a subject in a secondary sense only when a subject occupies this position and thereby embodies the other for another subject. Though Symbolic itself is not part of language insomuch as elements have no positive existence.
3. Real by which is not the "reality"; but whatever resists symbolization entirely by nature, "that which always returns to the same place." The Real is the object of anxiety, insofar as it lacks any possible mediation and is "the essential object which is not an object any longer, but this something faced with which all words cease and all categories fail, the object of anxiety par excellence."

Spoiler: regarding Kant

Putting that away, um, I don't understand the addition of Kant for helpfulness here much since all he says, is that we do not see "things-in-themselves." Objects conform to the structure of the mind, not the other way around. More so Space and time are not properties of things-in-themselves insomuch they are forms of human intuition. Likewise causality is not discovered in reality and instead it is imposed by the mind. In a boarder context, that doesn't seems to help a lot, or in any part of the scaling.

So… I do admit that in the final scan about Imaginary and Symbolic are not much demonstrated to be what (or at all), same for Real, so the talks from interview and other scans are more helping. I generally do not like we infer thing in their real world counterpart for fiction usually use them idiomatically, so I try to avoid that as far as possible.


Adding on, from the text in blog, I have this understanding that "Self" in the Universe's "I", in contrast to an individual's "I", and by death (which one comes from nothingness and returns to nothingness), the individual "I" returns to the universal "I." Be called Self or Real that is neither fiction nor reality.

So… in light of that, I see H1-A+ being feasible, considering if the process also being non discursive by how Real lacks mediacy believing in Lacan… so I perhaps can agree with a H1-A+, huh… I hold onto such an assumption and wait for Shin's and Nova's take on this too, unless they present why such a conclusion would be false. After all, I had a reading through positive light so might have included bias.

Tier-0 is completely non negotiable though, nothing there sounds like Tier-0 (unless we say it is Tier-0 because it mentions Kabalah and that it being nothingness is a reference to Ayin so Tier-0 lol… we aren't going to do that right?????).

Though I admit, the Deux Ex Machina thing is… really strange, it implies SELF somewhat wanted to miss with its own manifestation (player) for the lols, going by your interpretation, for whatever reason.

… A feeling tells me I had forgotten to say something very important but my mind currently doesn't work and my eyes are tired.

Edit: Mhm, doesn't matter at this point, but I'll add

I mean, if the process is non discursive, and it is the nothingness by which all come and return, as well as oppositions such as love and hate and dualities similar come from, it is very much H1-A+, yeah, solid definition on that case. However TIER-0, as I said, is not negotiable. Welp, that's it.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I apologize for the long read lol.

This series is a genuine mind screw, I was banging my head against the wall for 2 days trying to piece everything together.

Though I admit, the Deux Ex Machina thing is… really strange, it implies SELF somewhat wanted to miss with its own manifestation (player) for the lols, going by your interpretation, for whatever reason.

… A feeling tells me I had forgotten to say something very important but my mind currently doesn't work and my eyes are tired.

SELF seems to be both a malevolent and benevolent entity, it can both create miracles for characters like Kokoro, or kill them, returning them to itself, it's also interesting how conflicting and opposite feelings like love and hate are one within SELF, so yea makes sense it messes with the Player for the lols.

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

I apologize for the long read lol.

This series is a genuine mind screw, I was banging my head against the wall for 2 days trying to piece everything together.

Nah it was a good read, I believe it worth the time (the blog itself was not really that long though so don't worry, I had external reading regarding the concepts the verse borrowed though, particularly Lacan, Jungian I was fairly familiar with thanks to Persona, that added time). I actually liked the read through the blog, and read the whole chronology despite it being unneeded because the plot catched my attention.

 

[Vietthai96]

1-A for the Player is very straight-forward to me, since it see the multiverse as fiction, trivialized it into nothingness

I can see High 1-A (which probably will be 1-A+ in the future if Berny staff thread get accepted) for Self from since i see it is even beyond the framework of fiction and reality, which entirely beyond the framework of 1-A. I can see some arguments could support for High 1-A+ but i will hold my tounge on that for now, causw it requires some philosopical extrapolated reading of the texts

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Oh god reading it took over 3 hours…

Hmm… 1-A is fine.

Now, the next part, which is the most important part, is whether regarding SELF/The Real (which the text seems to posit them as the same…? I tried to have a holistic reading of it).

Before adding it worth flagging, Jung and Lacan both descend from Freud actually, and both eventually broke from him in ways that tell you almost everything about the rest of their careers: Jung drifted toward myth and mysticism while Lacan toward linguistics and mathematics. So, um… somewhat unique to see BOTH being presented together…? I guess. However I deem it strange.

The self stuff sounds more Jungian, since it is the Self (the archetype of wholeness, the psyche's true center, larger than and distinct from the ego), the Shadow (disowned/suppressed material, routinely projected onto other people), the Persona (the social mask, yes, that Persona took this concept too literally), and the Anima/Animus (the unconscious contrasexual figure, basically… wait nevermind ignore this part, I shouldn't have mentioned it ), down to individual.

While the Real of Lacan is another stuff

Spoiler: the real concept of Real, Symbolic, Imaginary

1. Imaginary is the register of images; identifications and illusory wholeness. This is the home of the ego and of imaginary rivalry (two egos competing for the same position supposedly, uhhh, like for girls perhaps?). The main illusions of this order are synthesis and duality. If the signifier is the foundation of the symbolic, the signified and signification are part of the Imaginary order.
2. Symbolic is the register of language; the most interesting indeed, law and the signifying chain. The big Other is the pre-existing structural order of language and culture the subject is born into; the Name-of-the-Father (a pun in French on "No of the father" supposedly) is the operator that installs the subject into this order. In other words, big Other and little Other are A and a, which the very awareness of this distinction matters; The little other is the other who is not really other, but a reflection and projection of the ego, which is thus the reason it is imbedded into the Imaginary. Yet, big Other is that by which is not illusionary otherness but true otherness because it cannot be assimilated by identification. Though, it is still pretty much within language, as it is imbedded into Symbolic. We can speak of the other as a subject in a secondary sense only when a subject occupies this position and thereby embodies the other for another subject. Though Symbolic itself is not part of language insomuch as elements have no positive existence.
3. Real by which is not the "reality"; but whatever resists symbolization entirely by nature, "that which always returns to the same place." The Real is the object of anxiety, insofar as it lacks any possible mediation and is "the essential object which is not an object any longer, but this something faced with which all words cease and all categories fail, the object of anxiety par excellence."

Spoiler: regarding Kant

Putting that away, um, I don't understand the addition of Kant for helpfulness here much since all he says, is that we do not see "things-in-themselves." Objects conform to the structure of the mind, not the other way around. More so Space and time are not properties of things-in-themselves insomuch they are forms of human intuition. Likewise causality is not discovered in reality and instead it is imposed by the mind. In a boarder context, that doesn't seems to help a lot, or in any part of the scaling.

So… I do admit that in the final scan about Imaginary and Symbolic are not much demonstrated to be what (or at all), same for Real, so the talks from interview and other scans are more helping. I generally do not like we infer thing in their real world counterpart for fiction usually use them idiomatically, so I try to avoid that as far as possible.


Adding on, from the text in blog, I have this understanding that "Self" in the Universe's "I", in contrast to an individual's "I", and by death (which one comes from nothingness and returns to nothingness), the individual "I" returns to the universal "I." Be called Self or Real that is neither fiction nor reality.

So… in light of that, I see H1-A+ being feasible, considering if the process also being non discruive by how Real lacks mediacy believing in Lacan… so I perhaps can agree with a H1-A+, huh… I hold onto such an assumption and wait for Shin's and Nova's take on this too, unless they present why such a conclusion would be false. After all, I had a reading through positive light so might have included bias.

Tier-0 is completely non negotiable though, nothing there sounds like Tier-0 (unless we say it is Tier-0 because it mentions Kabalah and that it being nothingness is a reference to Ayin so Tier-0 lol… we aren't going to do that right?????).

Though I admit, the Deux Ex Machina thing is… really strange, it implies SELF somewhat wanted to miss with its own manifestation (player) for the lols, going by your interpretation, for whatever reason.

… A feeling tells me I had forgotten to say something very important but my mind currently doesn't work and my eyes are tired.

1-A for the Player is very straight-forward to me, since it see the multiverse as fiction, trivialized it into nothingness

I can see High 1-A (which probably will be 1-A+ in the future if Berny staff thread get accepted) for Self from since i see it is even beyond the framework of fiction and reality, which entirely beyond the framework of 1-A. I can see some arguments could support for High 1-A+ but i will hold my tounge on that for now, causw it requires some philosopical extrapolated reading of the texts

Both these takes sound good to me.

 

[Deonment]

Wondering with this and the CRTs you've made for your other old ass verses if you plan to revise the rest, 11 eyes or toyko babel CRT when
Btw it is so funny to have the spark of realization about where I remember seeing this name from, only to look and damn, another VN by the I/O guy lol
Anyways

Since my play through years ago of Ever 17, I have been meaning to play this series, and I finally did, frankly been obsessed with figuring it out the past couple days. I made a blog compiling all the evidence, and explaining possible contradictions which may come up, which ironically turned into "because God allows it", as an answer to everything. Here are my conclusions:

Link to the wordpress in the blog is ******, being this

http://this%20websitehttps//adayem.wordpress.com/

rather than what I assume should be

Remember11 EXPLAINED

Warning: This page contains end-game spoilers for Remember11. If you've recently finished Remember 11: The Age of Infinity, you may have been unsatisfied with the way it ended. Do the remaining mysteries even have solutions? We'll analyze the clues left by the game and hopefully arrive at a...

adayem.wordpress.com

Anyways, reading through this
(Honestly, I've rewritten this entire thing twice, so excuse me if the formatting is a bit ******)
(I'm not touching the Lacan stuff because I'd rather not read that rn, and everything needed for the scale of that is already present in the scans given by the blog)

To my understanding of the cosmology as presented within the blog:

Spoiler: The Imaginary World, or The Transient World, or The Physical World

Firstly, we have the Imaginary, transient world; being where the cast typically exists and the one which is bound by space and time

This world has a multiverse based on MWI, though see below for a bit of a tangent

Spoiler: Quantum Mechanic MWI

The collapse of the wave function, or the entanglement of states responsible for MWI, only occurs on the quantum level, that is the observation of an electron is what causes the entanglement that brings about the "existence" of the two possible worlds (and further objects that interact with something that is already entangled further entangle them to the original quantum state), but pure interaction upon non-quantum levels would not bring about the sort of situation that results in MWI (to my understanding) furthermore, due to the quantum nature of MWI (that is, there being a least amount of any given quantity) the worlds produced by any sort of quantum (or non quantum) interact would be strongly finite

In any case, that isn't wholly relevant here, as the game presents an interpretation of it different, but similar enough and with enough statements to not matter, the multiverse is stated to be infinite, so the issue of quanta making it all finite isn't present, and it's stated that every possibility that has a non-zero chance of occurring "progresses forwards", which thanks to the basis of QM MWI occuring moment by moment, gives the type of branching needed for tier 1 MWI, and I say tier 1 MWI seeing as there is an argument it is High 1-B+ rather than Low 1-C (that is, the branching becomes exponential of a sort, with R number of universes, with an R number of moments branching into an N number of universes spiralling up and up the tiering system unto Aleph 2 and stopping there, if I remember the argument correctly)

Spoiler: The Spiritual World, or The Bridge, or The World of Archetypes

Beyond the Imaginary World is the Symbolic World, which is the bridge between the Imaginary and the Real worlds, and what I belive to be in essence, the world of (Jungian) archetypes, or at the very least the world in which That Guy resides (which I do not believe to actually be the "space" mentioned to be pure emptiness in the day 2 scan, but rather that that is the Self/God)

To explain, we get this descriptor

The reason why each character represented an archetype is because they are all under the control of “SELF”. In other words, you can think of the world Remember11 as the psychological experience of a single entity.

The world and all within it is the psychological experience of the SELF, and the characters each represent a given Jungian archetype, of which we get a list

Nakazawa: Kokoro (心: heart) symbolizes the anima, or feminine emotions. Satoru (悟: perceive, understand) represents the animus, or masculine reasoning. Mayuzumi (黛: eyebrow pencil) is a cosmetic that beautifies the eyebrows. She represents the persona, or the appearance that we show to others. Kali represents the dual nature mothers, showing affection and restraint. She is named after the Hindu goddess. Seiji sounds like “Sage”, meaning a wise man. At first, Hotori’s archetype was the trickster, and we planned to give her a major supporting role. But it didn’t fit well, so we gave that role to Yuni. She was originally named “Hotori Kusuda”. It sounds like “torikusuta”… trickster… (laugh). Ah, please laugh if you get it, it’s a point of pride.

Each of these characters represents a well-known Jungian Archetype, except for The Shadow, which is fitting enough, conspicuously missing for being one of the most famous archetypes (after the persona, for obvious reasons)

I think that the Shadow exists as, rather than one of the usual members of the cast, instead exists as the player, or That Guy

To explain, the Shadow represents the unknown, that which is repressed/rejected or not acknowledged by the Ego or Conscious, and can eventually "take over" an individual, and Jung draws a direct comparison to Jekyll and Hyde, to elaborate on why I think That Guy is the Shadow, firstly
Sayaka first murders her parents (and is diagnosed with DID), with Satoru rejecting full blame for his role in Sayaka's "Murder" (with that revalation being described as "merely the surface), before going on to discover the "Transcendent Will" (which we know to be That Guy, given the entire plot of the novel), there is the mistaking of the Will with the SELF, and eventually the end of the plan, in which we get this

Was the "Plan" a success as expected?
Was it a failure?
Where is SELF?
The eternally inescapable labyrinth of memory.
The shadow Satoru saw just before his fall from the clock tower——
It is already imprisoned in time-space.
It may have been "SELF"....
—— Into the Infinity Loop.

That Guy emerges and is trapped within the Infinity Loop, which is the game, and is described directly as a shadow in the act that "traps" them within it

The secondary factor to this is this line

Around that time, a number of similar incidents sporadically
take place, ultimately leading to a revision of the criminal
law in the following years.

Which states that several other murders (whose actors are diagnosed with DID and eventually "die"), occur, culminating in this regarding DID murderers incident

Inubushi, the killer, uttered the words "Where is self?" before
her arrest.

Inubushi was diagnosed as suffering from DID (Dissociative
Identity Disorder) by the authority. She is found not guilty of
the crime.

Which eventually results in Satoru associating the Transcendent Will with the Self

Now then, there is this pop culture idea, which is supported by Jung himself, that the Shadow exists as sort of separate entity within the person, and will eventually "lash out" if they continue to be repressed, with Jung specifically naming Jekyll and Hyde as examples of that sort of phenomenon, wherein Shadow overtakes Ego, and I presume most of us are aware of the type of acts Hyde does. But within this novel we also have a secondary behavior as to why this sort of thing might emerge, That Guy, whose existence as an absolute will and king who rules people, and who would be responsible for people acting inextricably out of character.

And lastly we have this told to us

Q: Looking at the TIPS, [ORE] seems to have memories transplanted from “That Guy”. However, the knowledge that [ORE] has is exactly the same as the player who has read the manual and cleared the Kokoro route, right?

A: Yeah, that’s “red accepts blue entirely”. Satoru is the so-called detective, and is named “Satoru” (perceive) to reflect his intelligence. Even if you’re not as sharp and capable as Satoru, would you be able to act wisely if you could redo everything using all of the information you collected? It’s an idea from Never7. Well, who is this “person” that’s going to act wisely?

One of the core ideas in Jungian thought regarding the shadow is the idea of assimilating (or in other words accepting) it into oneselves, ORE, the memoryless Satoru who we as That Guy control, exists as the PoV character (or in potential other words, the Ego, and his name means "perceive"), and the transplanting of memories from That Guy to ORE is described as "red accepts blue entirely"

As for why I see That Guy existing in the Symbolic World,

First, That Guy is described as "the hand of God" (as in, that which allows God to interact with the world)

Symbolically, it expresses a common theme in the series that “the viewpoint that sees the world (ie. the observer) is trapped in an infinite loop”. Also, one of the themes behind the story was “what is the relationship between the characters in the game and the player?” What if the player’s existence is recognized as “the hand of God”?

or David, that is the chosen king of Israel
This aligns with what we are told of the Sephirot

【O Great Sephirot, Our Master】
In Judaism, "the tree of Sephirot" is a tree of life that grows in Heaven. The tree of Sephirot itself represents the enormous macrocosm, while its form also represents the microcosm (the human body). Furthermore, it also holds the meaning of the path of spiritual pilgrimage to God. In this case, "Master" means God - that is, a 0th-dimensional being.

The tree holds the meaning of the path of the spiritual pilgrimage to God, like a bridge

And it isn't as though this would be the only time Nakazawa would pull this off, as in I/O (yes), which came after this, there exists an intermediary world between God (The Quantum/Nano World) and Man (The Real World), in the form of the Virtual/Cyber World, which is how things are actualized from pure potentia, so this sort of idea would not be a one off thing, and in fact aligns with the mention of Kant, and the thing-in-itself, as the Symbolic world would stand as a phenomenal intermediary between the SELF (which is the thing-in-itself) and the Imaginary world

Furthermore, I have reason to believe that the Symbolic world is the world of archetypes,

Kali is described as such

Kali represents the dual nature mothers, showing affection and restraint. She is named after the Hindu goddess.

And we have this described to us about the Great Mother (another one of the major Jungian Archetypes)

【Great mother】
The one who brought forth everything and envelops all, bringing them up. That side of her has made her an object of worship, held inseparably close, until she is transfigured and simultaneously becomes the maternal body which carries "the deepest darkness."

And is described as a figure with two sides, but also who brought forward everything and envelops it
The association between both should be clear, as should the fact that Kali (seemingly, maybe she does) has not had a role in bringing for everything nor has she enveloped it, and so this figure, who exists as an Archetype (just as That Guy should, if we accept them as The Shadow) should exist in a world beyond where the representation of such figures exist, as instead the figure in-of-itself, an idea which would track for a level of reality named the Symbolic World
Such an idea wouldn't even be strange regarding what's already in the novel, as to bring back the Sephirot Quote

【O Great Sephirot, Our Master】
In Judaism, "the tree of Sephirot" is a tree of life that grows in Heaven. The tree of Sephirot itself represents the enormous macrocosm, while its form also represents the microcosm (the human body). Furthermore, it also holds the meaning of the path of spiritual pilgrimage to God. In this case, "Master" means God - that is, a 0th-dimensional being.

The form of the tree represents (symbolizes, but let me stop myself before I start talking like a moth priest zero summing) the microcosm, the human body, within which these archetypes exist (in the mind), but the Tree itself, the passageway, represents the macrocosm, the universe, or as I am taking it, the Symbolic World as a whole, the cast are representations of Archetypes that exist within the Symbolic world Great Mother to Kali, Macrocosm to Microcosm, as above, so below, and such. Thus the other archetypes should exist within the Symbolic World

The Symbolic World exists as the world of Archetypes, and the source of the Imaginary World, standing beyond the concepts of Space-Time, with even attempts to trap them within space-time failing, with That Guy still existing beyond the concept of time, it is also the "bridge" between God and Man, the path by which one might return to God, and the means through which God can shape the Imaginary World. This is pretty blatantly 1-A (even if we ignore the world of symbolism and Archetypes stuff), even without the metafictional support.

The Symbolic World should be 1-A, seeing as it innately exists beyond Space-Time (see them needing to "bind"/"trap" That Guy within space-time, and even then that didn't work as That Guy is still explicitly beyond the concept of time), and exists as the archetypal source of the Imaginary World, with the Great Mother having created is envelops everything, acting as the "bridge" between God and Man, this is also all ignoring the metafictional stuff, which supports this idea

Spoiler: The Real World, or Heaven, or God, or Self

Lastly, we have The Real, and true, World, which is the SELF, which is God

Before anything else, I want to point out the association with the number three God has, beyond the obvious Trinity connection:

In the darkness….
My existence…. …fuses, is pulverized, scatters, and falls to lie thick over all…. Soon I filled the world. Transforming into small particles to cover my surroundings. I was blank, like thin air, no more substantial than a heat haze. I knew an instant in eternity, and an eternity in an instant. Fact and fiction jumbled together in chaos…. Illusions and reality…. And finally, zero…. A space containing nothing…. Where the three overlapped, my consciousness settled, and finally vanished.

2011, Date unknown:
Satoru completes his time-space transfer equipment based on the
information in the terabyte disk, and makes major amendments to his
"Plan:"
The test site is not Australia, but three points in Japan
(Akakura, Aosagi, Hotarubi).

The goal is not data acquisition, but the rescue of Mayuzumi
and the other victims of Flight 18's crash.

And... to seize "Self" in this time-space plane, and confine it.

Three concepts that overlap
And it goes on

Now then

Firstly, the Self exists as God

So let me explain it like this. “That Guy” isn’t necessarily limited to “the player”, but to the characters, they have no way of distinguishing between us who are “one dimension higher”. To them, we are abstractly like God. You can say that this is a story about rebelling against God.

That Guy being the Hand of God (that is, the means through which God interferes with the world)

Also, one of the themes behind the story was “what is the relationship between the characters in the game and the player?” What if the player’s existence is recognized as “the hand of God”?

As described here regarding the "return of souls"

【The Promised Land To Which We Must Someday Return】
(Alt. Title: The Promised Land) In the world's three primary religions, "The Promised Land" is a term used to refer to "Jerusalem," which is regarded as the land bestowed by God, and one which God visits. It can be argued that Kokoro's discovery of Location X on the seventh day after the accident could only have occurred due to the act of the divine. "Return" means both the escape from the mountains and the return of souls to their respective origins.

With the origin of the world (including the soul) being the Self

The reason why each character represented an archetype is because they are all under the control of “SELF”. In other words, you can think of the world Remember11 as the psychological experience of a single entity.

And we know that, or well what, that return is

【O Great Sephirot, Our Master】
In Judaism, "the tree of Sephirot" is a tree of life that grows in Heaven. The tree of Sephirot itself represents the enormous macrocosm, while its form also represents the microcosm (the human body). Furthermore, it also holds the meaning of the path of spiritual pilgrimage to God. In this case, "Master" means God - that is, a 0th-dimensional being.

With God being stated to be a "0th-dimensional being", in alignment with this, that is that nonexistence and a point, and this 0 (dimensional being) being what the Self is

Now then, SELF is the origin of life and the world
We know that from here

The reason why each character represented an archetype is because they are all under the control of “SELF”. In other words, you can think of the world Remember11 as the psychological experience of a single entity.

We know the self is responsible for the archetypes, both due to Jung stuff and because we're told outright
With one of the archetypes being

【Great mother】
The one who brought forth everything and envelops all, bringing them up. That side of her has made her an object of worship, held inseparably close, until she is transfigured and simultaneously becomes the maternal body which carries "the deepest darkness."

Who brought forth everything
God assembles amino acids to bring forth life

SELF is an absolute nothing, like half of the blog explains this so I'm not going back over it, but it is a pure 0

Self is the underlying nondualism of the whole world
Upon death we are told what happens

【The Promised Land To Which We Must Someday Return】
(Alt. Title: The Promised Land) In the world's three primary religions, "The Promised Land" is a term used to refer to "Jerusalem," which is regarded as the land bestowed by God, and one which God visits. It can be argued that Kokoro's discovery of Location X on the seventh day after the accident could only have occurred due to the act of the divine. "Return" means both the escape from the mountains and the return of souls to their respective origins.

【While Receiving Blessings】
In Christianity, death is regarded as the time of separation of the "body" and the "mind." It is said that at the time of death, the exhausted "body" is laid to rest, while the "mind (soul)" is sanctified and receives Heaven's blessing.

That is, the soul returns to Heaven, and we can see below what happens when someone dies

In the darkness….
My existence…. …fuses, is pulverized, scatters, and falls to lie thick over all…. Soon I filled the world. Transforming into small particles to cover my surroundings. I was blank, like thin air, no more substantial than a heat haze. I knew an instant in eternity, and an eternity in an instant. Fact and fiction jumbled together in chaos…. Illusions and reality…. And finally, zero…. A space containing nothing…. Where the three overlapped, my consciousness settled, and finally vanished.

That is all boundaries are dissolved, including fact and fiction, illusions and reality, until it all returns to 0
But that isn't all
As can be found from it's Jungian influences, the Self exists as a pure unity that the archetypes dissolve back into, and we are in fact informed of this and what those archetypes represent

Nakazawa: Kokoro (心: heart) symbolizes the anima, or feminine emotions. Satoru (悟: perceive, understand) represents the animus, or masculine reasoning. Mayuzumi (黛: eyebrow pencil) is a cosmetic that beautifies the eyebrows. She represents the persona, or the appearance that we show to others. Kali represents the dual nature mothers, showing affection and restraint. She is named after the Hindu goddess. Seiji sounds like “Sage”, meaning a wise man. At first, Hotori’s archetype was the trickster, and we planned to give her a major supporting role. But it didn’t fit well, so we gave that role to Yuni. She was originally named “Hotori Kusuda”. It sounds like “torikusuta”… trickster… (laugh). Ah, please laugh if you get it, it’s a point of pride.

With male and female, reason and emotion, the twins sides of the great mother, sage and trickster, persona and shadow, all dissolving back into the self, for whom all this is

In other words, you can think of the world Remember11 as the psychological experience of a single entity.

This is supported elsewhere

【Ａｍｂｉｖａｌｅｎｃｅ】
A psychology term; ambivalence is a state of having simultaneous, conflicting feelings, like love and hate, toward the same object. The feelings of others toward the Kokoro in Satoru's body. The feelings of others toward the Satoru in Kokoro's body. The feelings of Kokoro and Satoru toward themselves, the feelings of Kokoro toward Satoru, the feelings of Satoru toward Kokoro, before long, all of these become one.

As these conflicting feelings dissolve into singularity
We are also informed of this elsewhere
In this scan, the character describes themselves as "falling... anywhere and everywhere" and feeling a sense of loss, before correcting themselves, "Nothing had been lost; there was nothing to begin with." (implying also that the usage of "anywhere and everywhere was also incorrect), and going on to have the realization that there is nothing other than pure emptiness, wondering about the person experiencing this emptiness (the "I") and that this emptiness is like 0 (outright showcasing that this is God/SELF), and wondering A) If 0 exists B) If it doesn't exist, then what is it, and C)If it doesn't exist, when does 1 become 1.
As to which one is true, I will quote the following

The reason why each character represented an archetype is because they are all under the control of “SELF”. In other words, you can think of the world Remember11 as the psychological experience of a single entity.

To my understanding, the truth is that there is Nothing, that the 0 does not exist, and 1 never became 1, as it beats you over the head with, the SELF is fundamentally nothing, so 0, which is the self, doesn't exist, and we already know that this entire story is in essence just SELF's own "self reflection" (heh) ala something like Star Maker, wherein it takes on a finite and limited form for the "duration" of existence but it itself stays unteathered throughout the whole experience. In my mind there is no such thing as a universal or individual I; if there is an I at all, which I doubt, then it is the singular I called self; everything else is simply just it taking on roles "apart" from itself, and once those roles are completed and they die, as we are informed

【While Receiving Blessings】
In Christianity, death is regarded as the time of separation of the "body" and the "mind." It is said that at the time of death, the exhausted "body" is laid to rest, while the "mind (soul)" is sanctified and receives Heaven's blessing.

In the darkness….

My existence…. …fuses, is pulverized, scatters, and falls to lie thick over all…. Soon I filled the world. Transforming into small particles to cover my surroundings. I was blank, like thin air, no more substantial than a heat haze. I knew an instant in eternity, and an eternity in an instant. Fact and fiction jumbled together in chaos…. Illusions and reality…. And finally, zero…. A space containing nothing…. Where the three overlapped, my consciousness settled, and finally vanished.

【The Promised Land To Which We Must Someday Return】

(Alt. Title: The Promised Land) In the world's three primary religions, "The Promised Land" is a term used to refer to "Jerusalem," which is regarded as the land bestowed by God, and one which God visits. It can be argued that Kokoro's discovery of Location X on the seventh day after the accident could only have occurred due to the act of the divine. "Return" means both the escape from the mountains and the return of souls to their respective origins.

Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust, Nothing to Nothing, of which there is no thing beyond (I am, if but for a moment, tempted to argue 0 rather than high 1-A+ with all this)

The Deus Ex Machina thing I could honestly apply to like, everything. God is everything, and thus everything is an act of god, preordained and set, and shows off even more so how literally everything occurring is literally just the SELF "willing" it so (because I doubt it has an actual will beyond what the lesser worlds express).

So to sum that up
I agree with the Imaginary World being Low 1-C, think it could maybe be High 1-B or High 1-B+, but I don't remember the exact MWI argument there
I agree with That Guy, and thus the Symbolic World and the Archetypes (who I imagine literally do not exist in any further extent bar what's described in the blog) as being 1-A
I agree with SELF being High 1-A at minimum, think it should be High 1-A+ (Type 2), and it's close enough to 0 that I think you genuinely may have a fair enough shot at arguing that (and that might have trickle-down effects on the tiering, but I'm unsure and not touching that with a 10ft pole rn)

Hope this is legible; I rewrote the entire symbolic world segment while going through this again, so, wooo

This was fun

Edit: Put these in spoilers to make them less jarring

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Wondering with this and the CRTs you've made for your other old ass verses if you plan to revise the rest, 11 eyes or toyko babel CRT when

I revised 11 eyes like a year ago, nothing else to do there, tokyo babel is a bit of a mess, honestly don't even feel like addressing it. There are a few other VN's I have been meaning to read for years so will probably go for those first, or back to LN's, who knows, frankly too much stuff I want to do.

Link to the wordpress in the blog is ******, being this

Fixed

Each of these characters represents a well-known Jungian Archetype, except for The Shadow, which is fitting enough, conspicuously missing for being one of the most famous archetypes (after the persona, for obvious reasons)

I think that the Shadow exists as, rather than one of the usual members of the cast, instead exists as the player, or That Guy

Shadow is mentioned in TIP 98, which talks about the individualistic and omnipresent Shadow

Spoiler: Shadow

【Shadow】
The individualistic shadow and the omnipresent shadow. To
the person in question, their Shadow is something which
they hate. An entity which is one's polar opposite.
Possessed of a primal darkness. The more it is repressed,
the stronger it becomes.

More so interesting though is that Inubushi Keiko is actually stated to represent the Shadow archetype

Spoiler: Keiko Shadow

Full Name: Inubushi Keiko
Sex: Female
Age: 20
Birthday: April 30th, 1991 (Taurus)
Blood Type: AB

Occupation:
A convicted criminal, suffering from mental disorders; currently confined in the medical facility called SPHIA.

Knowledge: Average
Physical Strength: Extremely low
Cooperativeness: Extremely low

Personality:
Aggressive, goes by the carpe diem philosophy
of living for the moment, subject to extreme
mood swings, tends to turn others' impressions
of her upside down, loves despair and fears
hope (related to Borderline Personality
Disorder)

Hobbies: Talking by phone, e-mail, and chat

Likes:
Pleasure, total despair, attracting others' attention,
self-mutilation, those who will accept who she is
(to whom she can cling)

Dislikes:
Being abandoned, unreliable dreams, half-hearted
sympathy and hope, facile statements (stemming
from popular opinion, etc)

Beyond the Surface:
Represents the "Shadow" (→Archetype)
The one that Kokoro sees is the real Suzukage Hotori.
The body is the same, but they're different individuals.
Has DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder).
This is her status as of 2012.-TIP 105

That said I think it's due to Keiko having DID, like Satoru and Kokoro, Keiko also has her personality switched, which as it turns out with one of Utsumi's unborn kids

Spoiler: Keiko and SELF

2011, Jul 12:
Utsumi is confined to the basement of Hotarubi.
Utsumi is pregnant with twins.
Operation of the time-space transfer equipment begins.
All of this is done by Satoru's group.

About half past 4PM, time-space transfer begins between the
Akakura Jan 2011 circle and the Aosagi Jan 2012 circle. From here
on, the transfer phenomenon occurs at irregular intervals until
terminated by the equipment. These irregular transfers are
generally unpredictable even to the designer, but for this plan
(many identical repetitions of the same history), the transfers all
occur with the same perfect timing.

From 8:02 PM on, along with the transfer an exceptional phenomenon
occurs. Each time a space-time transfer occurs, a personality
exchange also occurs among the three members of each group:
Kokoro - Satoru(2012) - Elder Brother Twin Fetus (July 2011)
Hotori - Inubushi(2012) - Younger Sister Twin Fetus (July 2011)
Tragic events occur due to the fetuses' colic. -Chronology

I went through a whole thing about how the unborn are basically another form of SELF, because they don't yet exist, and how SELF can also mean fetal movements, so Keiko represents Shadow because she has another personality, in other words a form of SELF which takes over her body. In terms of the Player it is definitely described in terms of shadow. The Original Satoru who had his memories noticed a shadow behind him (Prologue), and then not too long after his existence taken over by it

Spoiler: Shadow

And the next moment――
Ah…
Before [ore] noticed, [ore] was dancing in the air.
Released from all restraints….
Time stops, the snowstorm stops, and [ore] am swallowed by the pure-white world.
The particles of light dance around me.
The sound of the bell still reverberates in the air.
As if it was reciting… the beginning of a solemn ritual….
Divinely, gently, ever so softly….
[ore] start to dissolve within the light.
All my senses are disappearing. My vision is gone.
As if it were being slowly peeled away, my consciousness departs me.
A deep sleep [ore] came to know long ago….
My existence… [ORE]… am now… here….-Prologue

And later on, Enomoto explains that the memories of That Guy was transplanted into Satoru

Spoiler: Memories

“Enomoto”「Even though the memories of That Guy were transplanted into you, you understand nothing, even now…」
“Satoru”「Who… is That Guy…?」
“Satoru”「Why did things turn out like this?」
“Enomoto”「Sorry, but…」
“Enomoto”「That’s the one question that I can’t answer.」
“Enomoto”「To be more accurate, I don’t want to answer.」
“Enomoto”「The very thought of That Guy is annoying, you see.」-Satoru Chapter, Day 7

Anyway this is a meta thing where we as the Players take control over the characters in the game, thus because we know nothing of the characters past, we can only implant basic facts you would know reading the manual and as it turns out stuff you learned in other routes, because in addition to "Ore", there is a "Watashi"

Spoiler: Watashi

Nothing had been lost; there was nothing to begin with.
Not a thing.
There wasn’t a single thing here.
Emptiness.
Pure emptiness.
There was nothing else other than this pure emptiness.
But, if indeed there was nothing here whatsoever…
Then what about [WATASHI], the person experiencing this emptiness?
Who is this existence known as [WATASHI]?
This emptiness… is like 0.
Does 0 really exist?
If it really exists, then what is this 0?
If it doesn’t exist, then when does 1 actually become 1?
And like that, from that interval between a 0 and 1…
――[WATASHI] was forcibly ripped out.-Kokoro Chapter, Day 2

So basically there are 2 Players each playing different routes, Kokoro route, and Satoru route. All in all, a pretty accurate reading of things yea, Player=Shadow. There is another quote which I saw while playing, but can't be bothered to find where it was, but I found it in the wordpress explaining self, this basically says the Shadow behind Kokoro was what was causing everything, and that it is nothingness, basically again proving Shadow=Player

Spoiler: Shadow Nothing

I felt it. Behind me was the shadow of the existence that had beckoned us into this situation. In the evening… lit by the dawn… It had neither volume nor mass.

――A point. A hollow nothingness.

As for why I see That Guy existing in the Symbolic World,

First, That Guy is described as "the hand of God" (as in, that which allows God to interact with the world)

or David, that is the chosen king of Israel
This aligns with what we are told of the Sephirot

The tree holds the meaning of the path of the spiritual pilgrimage to God, like a bridge

Furthermore, I have reason to believe that the Symbolic world is the world of archetypes,

Kali is described as such

And we have this described to us about the Great Mother (another one of the major Jungian Archetypes)

And is described as a figure with two sides, but also who brought forward everything and envelops it
The association between both should be clear, as should the fact that Kali (seemingly, maybe she does) has not had a role in bringing for everything nor has she enveloped it, and so this figure, who exists as an Archetype (just as That Guy should, if we accept them as The Shadow) should exist in a world beyond where the representation of such figures exist, as instead the figure in-of-itself, an idea which would track for a level of reality named the Symbolic World
Such an idea wouldn't even be strange regarding what's already in the novel, as to bring back the Sephirot Quote

The form of the tree represents (symbolizes, but let me stop myself before I start talking like a moth priest zero summing) the microcosm, the human body, within which these archetypes exist (in the mind), but the Tree itself, the passageway, represents the macrocosm, the universe, or as I am taking it, the Symbolic World as a whole, the cast are representations of Archetypes that exist within the Symbolic world Great Mother to Kali, Macrocosm to Microcosm, as above, so below, and such. Thus the other archetypes should exist within the Symbolic World

The Symbolic World exists as the world of Archetypes, and the source of the Imaginary World, standing beyond the concepts of Space-Time, with even attempts to trap them within space-time failing, with That Guy still existing beyond the concept of time, it is also the "bridge" between God and Man, the path by which one might return to God, and the means through which God can shape the Imaginary World. This is pretty blatantly 1-A (even if we ignore the world of symbolism and Archetypes stuff), even without the metafictional support.

The Symbolic World should be 1-A, seeing as it innately exists beyond Space-Time (see them needing to "bind"/"trap" That Guy within space-time, and even then that didn't work as That Guy is still explicitly beyond the concept of time), and exists as the archetypal source of the Imaginary World, with the Great Mother having created is envelops everything, acting as the "bridge" between God and Man, this is also all ignoring the metafictional stuff, which supports this idea

Fascinating stuff, I agree

Lastly, we have The Real, and true, World, which is the SELF, which is God

Before anything else, I want to point out the association with the number three God has, beyond the obvious Trinity connection:

Funny enough the opening song for this visual novel has this lyric

Spoiler: Trinity

Once, life was born from nothingness.
[…]
The one who holds everything. The one who is everything and nothing. The Trinity. Neither a god nor a demon.

This exactly matches with everything that has been talked about, pretty sure the images of the op also has Trinity in there, but anyway things do indeed come in 3, the personality switches, even 'Real", "Imaginary" and "Symbolic" are all in 3's.

SELF is an absolute nothing, like half of the blog explains this so I'm not going back over it, but it is a pure 0

Self is the underlying nondualism of the whole world
Upon death we are told what happens


That is, the soul returns to Heaven, and we can see below what happens when someone dies

That is all boundaries are dissolved, including fact and fiction, illusions and reality, until it all returns to 0
But that isn't all
As can be found from it's Jungian influences, the Self exists as a pure unity that the archetypes dissolve back into, and we are in fact informed of this and what those archetypes represent

With male and female, reason and emotion, the twins sides of the great mother, sage and trickster, persona and shadow, all dissolving back into the self, for whom all this is

Speaking of boundaries, when Watashi/The Player/Kokoro gets in contact with SELF it is described as the boundary line of their body being lost and everything melting away (Kokoro Chapter, Day 2)

To my understanding, the truth is that there is Nothing, that the 0 does not exist, and 1 never became 1, as it beats you over the head with, the SELF is fundamentally nothing, so 0, which is the self, doesn't exist, and we already know that this entire story is in essence just SELF's own "self reflection" (heh) ala something like Star Maker, wherein it takes on a finite and limited form for the "duration" of existence but it itself stays unteathered throughout the whole experience. In my mind there is no such thing as a universal or individual I; if there is an I at all, which I doubt, then it is the singular I called self; everything else is simply just it taking on roles "apart" from itself, and once those roles are completed and they die, as we are informed

Interesting, I agree

 

[Maniaunavailable]

agree FRA for 1A, neutral on H1A cuz ngl I didn't understand it LMAO

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Not surprising this is major big brain stuff.

Like everything in this series has meaning, even the images in the op lol. I agree with @Deonment take though which is:

So to sum that up
I agree with the Imaginary World being Low 1-C, think it could maybe be High 1-B or High 1-B+, but I don't remember the exact MWI argument there
I agree with That Guy, and thus the Symbolic World and the Archetypes (who I imagine literally do not exist in any further extent bar what's described in the blog) as being 1-A
I agree with SELF being High 1-A at minimum, think it should be High 1-A+ (Type 2), and it's close enough to 0 that I think you genuinely may have a fair enough shot at arguing that (and that might have trickle-down effects on the tiering, but I'm unsure and not touching that with a 10ft pole rn)

SELF is a very interesting topic, it's an absolute nothingness from which everything comes from and returns to, beyond reality and fiction, and its where there are no boundaries, ie no life, no death, no love, no hate, no you, no I, just everything united in its absoluteness nothingness.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Hmm @Vietthai96 @DarkDragonMedeus any thoughts on the latest discussions? We seem to have gone from the Player is 1-A for seeing the multiverse as nonexistent, and SELF is High 1-A for being the nothingness beyond fiction and reality, to the Player is the hand of SELF, and is how it interacts with the world, it is the intermediary/bridge on the spiritual journey where everything returns to SELF and SELF is an all encompassing nothing which everything comes from and returns to, including things like simultaneous, conflicting feelings, like love and hate. SELF is where identifications such as "I" dissolve into, and SELF has no boundaries which is why it is beyond illusion and reality, because it is a nothingness.

Sidenote, in the TIPS directly after the explanation on ambivalence, there is also an explanation on Identification, in ambivalence it was talking about how feelings eventually become one, and Identification follows up by saying Kokoro and Satoru seeing each other, united their respective existences

Spoiler: Identification

【Ａｍｂｉｖａｌｅｎｃｅ】
A psychology term; ambivalence is a state
of having
simultaneous, conflicting feelings,
like love and hate, toward the same object.
The feelings of others toward the Kokoro in Satoru's body.
The feelings of others toward the Satoru in Kokoro's body.
The feelings of Kokoro and Satoru toward themselves,
the feelings of Kokoro toward Satoru,
the feelings of Satoru toward Kokoro,
before long, all of these become one.

【Ｉｄｅｎｔｉｆｉｃａｔｉｏｎ】
Confirmation of sameness; unification, assimilation. Kokoro
and Satoru, who were able to assimilate their bodies and
souls. By properly seeing their partner with their own eyes,
they became able to unite their respective existences.
...Perhaps this is what is called "love."

Is this a fancy way of saying the 2 Players became 1? I suspect that's the case, because before there where 2 Players playing different routes, but when Satoru and Kokoro met, both routes united, thus the Players became 1. Anyway this is neat but not relevant to tiering, all you can really take from this that God/SELF influences the world using Players, and there can be multiple of them, which can united and become one, just like how everything is united in SELF.

 

[Vietthai96]

It still make the Player 1-A though

For SELF i will go with At least High 1-A, likely higher. I can see some arguments that could make it High 1-A+, but for now i will goes with the former rating to be safe

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Yea, don't think the Player's tier changes from 1-A, unless there is massive curveball here, and Tier 0 SELF is accepted, then you could make arguments about the Player being the manifestation of the will of a tier 0 being.

For now, guess we wait for some more opinions on whether SELF is High 1-A or High 1-A+.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It still make the Player 1-A though

For SELF i will go with At least High 1-A, likely higher. I can see some arguments that could make it High 1-A+, but for now i will goes with the former rating to be safe

Same thoughts

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Bump.

 

[BleedingPeach]

Besides I agree with this… when my PC is fixed… couldn't I get some help reviewing "I/O"?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Well what do you agree with? Everyone agrees with 1-A Player, meanwhile the 2 staff members here want to be conservative and stick with High 1-A SELF, while @Mr._East_Statement and @Deonment seem to prefer High 1-A+ SELF? Not sure on the latter since they haven't commented in a bit and the discussion has progressed.

As for I/O, that's a 45 hour game, and not on my already long list of stuff to play or replay.

 

[Vietthai96]

Just clarify that i do not mind a possibly High 1-A+ or an outright High 1-A+, but that is in case other staff agree as well. Hmm we also need to decide what type for High 1-A+ in case it get accepted, i think it should be Type 2

 

[Deonment]

Just clarify that i do not mind a possibly High 1-A+ or an outright High 1-A+, but that is in case other staff agree as well. Hmm we also need to decide what type for High 1-A+ in case it get accepted, i think it should be Type 2

It'd be type 2 if high 1-A+ got accepted, East agrees with such, and if they ever come back to the thread they'll prolly say that, but eh, time to wait on more staff forever

 

[Vietthai96]

It'd be type 2 if high 1-A+ got accepted, East agrees with such, and if they ever come back to the thread they'll prolly say that, but eh, time to wait on more staff forever

i thought you gonna come back with a surprise tier 0 argument for this

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

If this gets to High 1-A+, would probably be the highlight of my 10 years on vs battles lol, though I would have to figure out what abilities to give SELF, since I also don't pay attention to these high tier characters nor the obscure haxes like paraconsistent physiology

Not cause I care about high tiers, but cause this was a genuinely fascinating series to go through and understand and I have been tangentially aware of it for years and thought maybe it could reach Low 1-C.

Anyway seems this probably won't go anywhere until somebody like @Qawsedf234 shows up.

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

Well what do you agree with? Everyone agrees with 1-A Player, meanwhile the 2 staff members here want to be conservative and stick with High 1-A SELF, while @Mr._East_Statement and @Deonment seem to prefer High 1-A+ SELF? Not sure on the latter since they haven't commented in a bit and the discussion has progressed.

As for I/O, that's a 45 hour game, and not on my already long list of stuff to play or replay.

Yup, I agree with type 2, just not agree with any Tier-0 whatsoever (I mean that's the reason why I edited my original comment to not flood the thread)

 

[Deonment]

gives the type of branching needed for tier 1 MWI, and I say tier 1 MWI seeing as there is an argument it is High 1-B+ rather than Low 1-C (that is, the branching becomes exponential of a sort, with R number of universes, with an R number of moments branching into an N number of universes spiralling up and up the tiering system unto Aleph 2 and stopping there, if I remember the argument correctly)

Oh yeah, to further elaborate on this (and opening the box to let the genie out of the bottle regarding people potentially deciding to use this for wank) for the (new) evaluating staff

As you are (to some extent) aware, dimensions are axi of length R, with a line having size R, a plane having length R*R (or in other words R^2) as it is composed of two infinite lines extending in orthogonal directions, a space has length R^3, and the average timeline R^4

What we get from this sort of MWI is the confirmation that for each moment there is a branching in reality, creating a non-zero amount of timelines (while we do have confirmation of infinite possibilities, the timeline could branch into 2 for all we care; it makes no real difference), which furthermore branch to make more timelines (also doesn't matter) so on and so forth and uncountable number of times before a single second has passed, and thus results in an R number of structures with R^4 size, or in other words R^5 and 5D, and that's where the low 1-C comes from and a solid lowball of the tier

The High 1-B+ comes from the fact that we then have an R number of timelines, which each split into uncountably infinitely more before that same second has even passed, which is R*R*R*R*R... an uncountably infinite number of times, for R^R number of timelines, or in other words, an Aleph 2 number of timelines (2^n is the power set function (something much weaker but not relevantly different for our purposes than R^R), we assume CH so the P(x) of a given aleph is the next aleph in order, or P(Aleph Null)=Aleph 1, P(Aleph 1)=Aleph 2, so on so forth), and this by itself is already high 1-B+, but as still happens these aleph 2 timlines the similarly split in an act that repeats this power set nonsense up and up until aleph whatever (Aleph Aleph Null/N as a lowball ig?) size multiverse

I actually don't remember if we fully accept that argument, but eh, can wait on Qaws for that

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

At this point guess I should start spamming staff until someone interested in tier 1 stuff shows up @Planck69 @Theglassman12 @Elizio33 @LephyrTheRevanchist.