Reinstating Sailor Moon Conceptual Manipulation and Information Manipulation standing

[Iamunanimousinthat]

In a previous, CRT thread, star seeds, the fundamental aspects of Sailor Moon verse, had their indexing as information and conceptual manipulation removed. I am making this thread to re-instate them. Historically, Star Seeds were decided to be equalized as concept manipulation and information manipulation because they fit the standards.

The mods that agreed with the downgrade, I believed did not partake in a fair assessment as they seemed to believe that since there was no scans that directly stated that star seeds were concepts/information, that they couldn't be indexed as such. This is goes against precedents that were set in this wiki, as we have several fundamental aspects in various works of fiction being indexed as conceptual manipulation and/or information manipulation despite there not being blatantly called so. If an aspect fits the description and adheres to the standards set on the ability page, it should be indexed as such. Example: Bastard!!, Kingdom Hearts, Destiny, God of War, Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken, etc.

This is a name fallacy. Just because an attack is Absolute Zero, doesn't mean it can be indexed as absolute zero without explicit evidence showing it is. The reverse is true, if an attack fits the description of absolute zero, saying that it can't be absolute zero because it's not explicitly called so, is not coherent. Even more so, Conceptual manipulation type 1, takes inspiration from Plato's Forms, which are not called concept by plato (a word that didn't exist in his time lol). There should be no reason why a unique fundamental aspect in a show needs to be called a concept specifically to get Type 1, when the very foundation is not called a concept.

With that said: let's get into the business.

Necessary Background Information:​

To understand this CRT, you will need to know some necessary background information of the Sailor Moon universe.

The Galaxy Cauldron is a location at the center of the Milky Way Galaxy which star seeds are birthed from. It creates star seeds for everything in the cosmology, not just the galaxy or universe. Things that enter the cauldron are erased from existence, including all of history.

The word star is used both literally and metaphorically in Sailor Moon, stars are obviously called stars, but also are planets, moons, and celestial objects. People and individuals are called stars as well.

Sailor Crystals are special star seeds.

Please keep in mind, so there isn't any confusion as the text flips back and forth

Star Seeds as Concepts and Information:​

The Galaxy Cauldron is the source of everything in the cosmology.




All possibilities, potential, beings, objects, power and abilities all originate from the galaxy cauldron. The galaxy cauldron creates star seeds which grow into or cause any of these things.

Star Seeds are defined as:



To get more into this, The Japanese goes a little clearer:



星はみんな 「種」から 育つんだよ
星だけじゃない 大きさも 形態もその名も さまざまだけど
All stars grow from star seeds.
Not just stars, but all sizes, shapes and names.

(special thanks to former user: Henshinintervention)

It's not just celestial objects like stars and planets. It's everything including all living things. Including all shapes, sizes, and names. The galaxy cauldron through star seeds give form to all things.





"contain everything that makes a guardian is contained in side their crystal" Star seeds contain all the information for a Sailor Senshi. This is why Sailor Moon required them to bring her friends back. This is why Sailor Galaxia was able corrupt the senshi.

It is not only their identities and powers, but the ideals/abstractions they represent:

https://imgur.com/a/incarnation-sNUIR3E

This is not just for physical beings, but non-physical beings such as Metallia who is pure darkness, Death Phantom, whose true form is his resentment, ghosts, and Gods.

Star Seeds are separate from souls and are located in the hearts of people.

How it fits within the current standards:​

Conceptual Manipulation​

From the Conceptual Manipulation Page:

"Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept."

These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts.

Starseeds are possibilities and the source of all life and all celestial objects, and the source of all abilities in the verse. They are the fundamental aspect of everything in the verse.

Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern

Even though star seeds pertain to the thing they form, they can be taken and used independently. The Sailor Animamates took the Sailor Crystals of dead Sailor Senshi and used it to power themselves. If star seeds were dependent on their forms, they would disappear when those forms are destroyed or erased. (Sailor Crystals are "super" star seeds for those who don't know)

the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence

When Tuxedo Kamen was pushed into the galaxy cauldron and his star seed was destroyed. Chibi-Usa, his daughter from the future, was immediately erased from history, meaning everything that was dependent on him ceased to exist.

the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

When Tuxedo Kamen was erased in the past, his future self was still alive in the future and his daughter, Chibi-Usa, was unaffected by her father dying in the past

Information Manipulation​

From the Information Manipulation page:

"These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality. This can allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. These manipulation can come on many levels. For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities, while others can rewrite information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature."

Star seeds contain all the information that makes a sailor guardian. When in control of a star seed, a person can completely change aspects of a person's being. Can turn someone who is good to evil. Can increase their power, and change their abilities.

When Sailor Galaxia remade the Solar System's senshi physical forms from their crystals and she recreated them to be evil and have more sinister power.

In Conclusion (TL;DR):​

Star Seeds are the fundamental aspects of the verse and give shape and form to everything. They are synonymous with potential and possibilities and pre-date all matter and beings. They contain all the information for a guardian, including their powers, the abstractions they represent.


Tally

Agree: Ednaxel2, LemonedEyes, ByAsura (Information Manipulation Type 1), LuffyRuffy46307
Disagree:Vietthai96
Neutral

 

[Eseseso]

So would anyone get concept/info manipulation from this?

Also, type 2 concept manipulation looks ok at a glance, not sure about information manipulation.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

So would anyone get concept/info manipulation from this?

As it was before, anyone who can affect star seeds.

 

[Eseseso]

As it was before, anyone who can affect star seeds.

Which would be?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Which would be?

Sailor Moon, the inner and outer senshi, Queen Nehellenia, Sailor Galaxia and Shadow Galactica, the star lights. Basically most characters from the stars arc.

 

[Ednaxel2]

I agree with this

 

[LemonedEyes]

Agreed and Sailor Moon's page and her verse needs some serious updating.

 

[Vietthai96]

No offense but, other than the new scan which is a japanese raw scan, the argument is the same, probably the other new things you brought up is mentioned other verses. But other than Bastard! which probably should be downgraded, Kingdom Hearts which i know nothing about, there other verses do have explicit mention of info or concept or even both

Anyway i will address the new japanese scan that, that scan didn't matter in the grand scheme

Not just stars, but all sizes, shapes and names.

Like sure, but this isn't really matter. My mother gave me shape, size and name, didn't mean she have CM

It is not only their identities and powers, but the ideals/abstractions they represent:

Norminalism, Idealism abstraction, not literal abstract concept. The same sailor soldiers who didn't even have feat or statement that their existences tied to such abstraction, and they can manipulate these abstraction.

Seriously, it is just a flowery talk of someone going around, posing as warrior of this and that, beat up villains to protect the world, doesn't mean suddenly those shit become literal abstract concepts govern something in reality

This is not just for physical beings, but non-physical beings such as Metallia who is pure darkness, Death Phantom, whose true form is his resentment, ghosts, and Gods.

Non-physical of course, but being non-physical hardly mean anything, especially later Mercury talk about being mass of solid darkness, wtf is that?, anyway likely just talking about him do not have physical shell which, really not matter

And where it is stated that Death Phantom is resentment itself or his true form being it?, the scan just say his resentment soaking up Nemesis for centuries, which does not mean he himself is literal abstraction of resentment. I can understand why you came up with that conclusion but i don't think these is enough. Even if he is literal abstraction of resentment, almost nothing help to prove CM

About gods scan, what the hell it even saying, there are just legends Usagi mention in her book and there is no Gods in Sailor Moon, Sailor Soldiers while representing their home planet, aren't gods either, the verse never once implied them to be gods. And like i said above, while they keep saying they represent love, justice, etc.... they actually have no control over these aspect they mention, as the author herself just making reference to real life myth where solar system planets are named after Greco-Roman Gods, isn't as deep as you think

Anyway, wrap up, aside from some scans i addressed, literally you used the same arguments from the downgrade thread, anyway, the foundation for your arguments is, you saw some random scans, which have nothing to do with each others, made some vague connection between them, you saw some statements and feats, then believed that only Conceptual Manipulation and Information Manipulation can explains these feats and statements and not others, that all, a leap in logic, as i have said in previous thread, these feats is fine, but can be achieved by multiple other powers, not strictly just conceptual manipulation and information manipulation, you are just making illusory bridge between the two abilities and the evidences you have with actual concrete connection

Anyway, i am on the same board as you that with how concept hax getting accepted these days, you don't need to namedrop concepts word or making statements that is 1:1 with the conceptual manipulation's page paragraph, but these must still concrete foundation to connect which you current do not have, no offense

Also

The mods that agreed with the downgrade, I believed did not partake in a fair assessment

Lol, lmao, anyway, should not start a CRt with this kind of argument, ngl, because in the end, you don't have concrete evidences and just making connection, thus everything is up to interpretations, while i don't fault your interpretation, the others have different interpretation too. You also said you personally believes these feats is CM1 and Info 2 hax if i'm not wrong

And finally, isn't these is a rule about 6 months need to be passed to make a new thread about the same topic?

 

[SweetDao]

And finally, isn't these is a rule about 6 months need to be passed to make a new thread about the same topic?

Jumping in just for this bit, but I'm sure it's fine if there is substantial new evidences to back up the claim.

 

[Vietthai96]

Jumping in just for this bit, but I'm sure it's fine if there is substantial new evidences to back up the claim.

Oh yeah, OP did brought up two or three new scans and some argument based on them, lol, me being absolute fodder

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Agreed and Sailor Moon's page and her verse needs some serious updating.

Currently working on it.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Like sure, but this isn't really matter. My mother gave me shape, size and name, didn't mean she have CM

False equivalency.

Non-physical of course, but being non-physical hardly mean anything, especially later Mercury talk about being mass of solid darkness, wtf is that?, anyway likely just talking about him do not have physical shell which, really not matter

And where it is stated that Death Phantom is resentment itself or his true form being it?, the scan just say his resentment soaking up Nemesis for centuries, which does not mean he himself is literal abstraction of resentment. I can understand why you came up with that conclusion but i don't think these is enough. Even if he is literal abstraction of resentment, almost nothing help to prove CM

If you go back and read what I wrote, you will see that I said these are examples of star seeds giving form to non-physical beings. I never said Death Phantom is the literal abstraction of resentment. You are making a strawman and arguing over something I did not say.

Norminalism, Idealism abstraction, not literal abstract concept. The same sailor soldiers who didn't even have feat or statement that their existences tied to such abstraction, and they can manipulate these abstraction.

Seriously, it is just a flowery talk of someone going around, posing as warrior of this and that, beat up villains to protect the world, doesn't mean suddenly those shit become literal abstract concepts govern something in reality

Venus Guardian of Love
Venus incarnation of the Goddess of Love
Venus incorporates love in her attacks

I don't really understand your argument of saying that there are no statement that their existences are tied to these abstractions when we have statements saying they tied to abstractions.

If you don't want to believe in the statements then don't. But don't say they don't exist when they blatantly do.

Also you keep in mind, this is about star seeds. Not the individuals. This is about how star seeds give form to these abstractions and can empower individuals with them.

About gods scan, what the hell it even saying, there are just legends Usagi mention in her book and there is no Gods in Sailor Moon, Sailor Soldiers while representing their home planet, aren't gods either, the verse never once implied them to be gods. And like i said above, while they keep saying they represent love, justice, etc.... they actually have no control over these aspect they mention, as the author herself just making reference to real life myth where solar system planets are named after Greco-Roman Gods, isn't as deep as you think

there is no Gods in Sailor Moon
sailor soldiers aren't gods either
verse never implied to be gods

Look, I understand that you are skeptical, but if you aren't knowledgeable of the series, it helps to just ask questions instead of making these objectively false statements.



The gods mentioned in the book, are literal characters in the story.
Queen Serenity is the goddess Selene.
Minaka (Sailor Venus) is the incarnation of the goddess Venus.
Chronos is literally Sailor Pluto's father.

The gods are real. It's not as shallow as you think.

 

[Vietthai96]

False equivalency.

= can't debunk, oke, claimed my argument is false equipvalent without actually bring up the reason why it is a false equipvalent is crazy

If you go back and read what I wrote, you will see that I said these are examples of star seeds giving form to non-physical beings. I never said Death Phantom is the literal abstraction of resentment. You are making a strawman and arguing over something I did not say.

Another can't debunk, if i do not read, then i can't make my arguments, called me strawman and demand me to go back to read your argument is not a way to counter. You literaly said in your argument that Death Phantom is resentment itself

Look, I understand that you are skeptical, but if you aren't knowledgeable of the series, it helps to just ask questions instead of making these objectively false statements.

lol, can she truly manipulate actual emotion of love?, make people fall in love with her??, using an attack description without actually feats is funny ngl while the actual attacks just blast people to death. And even if she can do that, it can well fall under emotional manipulation rather than something deep

Is that how love suppose to be?, look like just flowery way to say about her attacks. You making a big leap in your logic. And say i'm not knowledgable on the verse as a reason to "debunk" me is another crazy, ngl

The gods mentioned in the book, are literal characters in the story.
Queen Serenity is the goddess Selene.
Minaka (Sailor Venus) is the incarnation of the goddess Venus.
Chronos is literally Sailor Pluto's father.

The gods are real. It's not as shallow as you think.

The only one i remember was Chronos is mentioned to be Pluto's father, which why she has power to stop time, that all, literally the only thing that align with actual myth, other than that Queen Serenity isn't Selene, where the hell you get that thing from, Sailor Soldiers past life was princess of their own planets, other than that, like i said, everything is just vague mention that is a reference to real life Greek myth, which i don't know why you keep making it deeper than it should be

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

= can't debunk, oke, claimed my argument is false equipvalent without actually bring up the reason why it is a false equipvalent is crazy

Comparing the real life gestation of a fetus to a super natural mechanic a is false equivalence and not worthy of an argument.

Or do I really need to tell you the combination of a your father's sperm and your mother's ova inside your mother's uterus to form a zygote that will under go cellular division to become you making this silly argument is not comparable to a supernatural story mechanic of distilled pure potential becoming everything and anything from a planet to a star, to a god, to a person, to power etc.

Another can't debunk, if i do not read, then i can't make my arguments, called me strawman and demand me to go back to read your argument is not a way to counter. You literaly said in your argument that Death Phantom is resentment itself

You should try reading to comprehend, and not skimming to respond. I said Death Phantom's true form is his resentment. I did not say he is the abstraction or concept of resentment. Again, I was giving an example of star seeds giving form to non-physical beings. I literally just told you what my argument was and you're choosing to ignore it to argue something I never said or argued for. So yes. You are creating a strawman.

lol, can she truly manipulate actual emotion of love?, make people fall in love with her??, using an attack description without actually feats is funny ngl while the actual attacks just blast people to death. And even if she can do that, it can well fall under emotional manipulation rather than something deep

Is that how love suppose to be?, look like just flowery way to say about her attacks. You making a big leap in your logic. And say i'm not knowledgable on the verse as a reason to "debunk" me is another crazy, ngl

Notice how I said, this is not about the individual, it's about the star seed. You choosing to focus on the merit of how Venus is supposed to be using the power of love in battle is irrelevant. It's about the fact that this connection to the abstraction comes from her starseed/sailor crystal.

The only one i remember was Chronos is mentioned to be Pluto's father, which why she has power to stop time, that all, literally the only thing that align with actual myth, other than that Queen Serenity isn't Selene, where the hell you get that thing from, Sailor Soldiers past life was princess of their own planets, other than that, like i said, everything is just vague mention that is a reference to real life Greek myth, which i don't know why you keep making it deeper than it should be

Buddy, you literally said the the gods mentioned in the book weren't real and I showed you that they were literal characters. You were proved objectively wrong.







You don't know what you are talking about. Please stop making false accusations.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

It seems good

 

[ByAsura]

It seems like every Sailor Moon thread devolves into toxic arguments. Let's put a pin in the aggression and shit talking before it goes too far.

Anyway, I can agree to at least Type 1 information manipulation for the Star Seeds. Won't comment on the rest.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

It seems like every Sailor Moon thread devolves into toxic arguments. Let's put a pin in the aggression and shit talking before it goes too far.

Anyway, I can agree to at least Type 1 information manipulation for the Star Seeds. Won't comment on the rest.

Noted.

 

[GarrixianXD]

In the scans I see, star seeds are said to give birth to everything; stars, planets, living beings, possibilities, all that. It has been explicitly asserted to be a fundamental aspect of the Universe, but it doesn't seem clear what form the so-called "star seed" took; none of the scans remotely mention it being an abstract entity or something similar to that. Seems like certain key arguments come from the star seed, purportedly, giving rise to and creating abstractions/ideas such as possibilities, names, titles ideologies, etc. However, there's a difference between being a concept/information itself, and giving rise to a concept/information; it's more likely the latter is being denoted here, not the former. Perhaps type 3 conceptual manipulation and type 1 information manipulation would work if one were to use the star seed to warp reality since it was said that names, titles and ideologies were governed by it and all, though not sure where type 2 information would be from, since I don't really see a scan that implies well enough that their information is even remotely fundamental to reality.

Hard disagree with type 1 conceptual manipulation. Type 1 concepts define independent concepts that govern objects across the entirety of reality, which its objects completely disappear after the destruction of the concept, across all of reality. You have shown that Tuxedo Kamen's star seed governs the future that significantly correlates to him, and therefore destroying the star seed would erase any aspect of history pertains to a certain person, however, it doesn't seen to be something fundamental that is significant enough to change all of reality, as it was only shown to have erased his daughter in the future unless you provide any other scans that implies or shows reality is fundamentally affected by the destruction of his star seed. This seems rather like something caused by a change in the causality like character A's father got killed by character B, therefore character A doesn't exist and also got killed by character B as a byproduct.

Edit: it seems like there are multiple Star Seeds existing in the franchise as shown in the OP, and does not act as a single entity altogether. If so, I don't think we should classify it all as being the same in terms of properties and powers, because one was mentioned to be fundamental and governs practically everything, doesn't guarantee all star seeds are fundamental.

 

[Vietthai96]

You have shown that Tuxedo Kamen's star seed governs the future that significantly correlates to him

i argue that no, since in the verse, you need to destroy star seed to actually kill that person, so his future self disappear is just due to time paradox, because star seed of his past self which his existence dependent on, disappear, so time paradox cause his star seed to disappear in turn he disappear, as in the verse, everyone existence depend on their star seed, as long as a person star seed remain, you can revive said person, sure there is some force, character who can revive a completely destroyed star seed, but that is all, well, i'm going to sleep, bye everyone ^^

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Hard disagree with type 1 conceptual manipulation. Type 1 concepts define independent concepts that govern objects across the entirety of reality, which its objects completely disappear after the destruction of the concept, across all of reality. You have shown that Tuxedo Kamen's star seed governs the future that significantly correlates to him, and therefore destroying the star seed would erase any aspect of history pertains to a certain person, however, it doesn't seen to be something fundamental that is significant enough to change all of reality, as it was only shown to have erased his daughter in the future unless you provide any other scans that implies or shows reality is fundamentally affected by the destruction of his star seed. This seems rather like something caused by a change in the causality like character A's father got killed by character B, therefore character A doesn't exist and also got killed by character B as a byproduct.

This doesn’t paint the full picture. You are leaving out the fact that when Tuxedo Kamen’s form was destroyed, and he was dead, his future self and future daughter were unaffected. (His star seed unaffected.)

It was only when his star seed was erased by the cauldron, that we see the effect carry out through reality.

This is the distinction.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

i argue that no, since in the verse, you need to destroy star seed to actually kill that person, so his future self disappear is just due to time paradox, because star seed of his past self which his existence dependent on, disappear, so time paradox cause his star seed to disappear in turn he disappear, as in the verse, everyone existence depend on their star seed, as long as a person star seed remain, you can revive said person, sure there is some force, character who can revive a completely destroyed star seed, but that is all, well, i'm going to sleep, bye everyone ^^

Yes. As long as the concept still exists, you can bring the person back even if they’re dead or destroyed. But if you destroy the concept, then they are gone forever, and all their forms and thing dependent on them disappear too.

 

[GarrixianXD]

This doesn’t paint the full picture. You are leaving out the fact that when Tuxedo Kamen’s form was destroyed, and he was dead, his future self and future daughter were unaffected. (His star seed unaffected.)

It was only when his star seed was erased by the cauldron, that we see the effect carry out through reality.

This is the distinction.

I'd rather view something like this being a fundamental causality/information erasure or acausality negation than consider this type 1 conceptual manipulation. You're right, but you gotta show more than that to prove it being a type 1 concept. I think I also questioned whether the Star Seed itself is a concept rather than something that creates concepts.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

You're right, but you gotta show more than that to prove it being a type 1 concept.

Can you give me an example of what more you are looking for? I could provide you with something I have a frame of reference.

I think I also questioned whether the Star Seed itself is a concept rather than something that creates concepts.

Is this distinction important for indexing it on the profiles? For example: character manipulating fire vs a character manipulating something that creates fire. Both would have fire manipulation indexed on their profile, fire manipulation vs. fire manipulation via x mechanic.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Can you give me an example of what more you are looking for? I could provide you with something I have a frame of reference.

Something like the Star Seed is a concept or an abstract thing itself could work. And when the destruction of Tuxedo Kamen's star seed caused significant consequences to all of reality in the future, as if a fundamental aspect was lost. Merely his daughter of the future being erased isn't enough to qualify for type 1.

Is this distinction important for indexing it on the profiles? For example: character manipulating fire vs a character manipulating something that creates fire. Both would have fire manipulation indexed on their profile, fire manipulation vs. fire manipulation via x mechanic.

Well, yeah, if the former isn't equipment-based while the latter is.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Something like the Star Seed is a concept or an abstract thing itself could work.

I think Chaos would fit this. Chaos's whole stick is that it was never born. It remained in the cauldron and was able to take over it. All evil beings are extensions of chaos and chaos has no physical form and just exists as as an abstract manifestation of its star seed.

It seats in contrast with Moon's starseed. They're both reliant on each other, and both call to each other. One cannot exist without the other.

And when the destruction of Tuxedo Kamen's star seed caused significant consequences to all of reality in the future, as if a fundamental aspect was lost. Merely his daughter of the future being erased isn't enough to qualify for type 1.

I have to respectfully disagree as this would be the case for the majority of examples.

If you destroy the concept of basketball, then everything reliant on the existence of basketball would be changed too. If two people met and got married and had kids because they bumped into each other at a basketball game, erasing basketball, would change history and their resulting kids would disappear.