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Regarding OP Characters and OP abilities...and Tier 1's

@Sera I understand where you are comin from.

Like for example your series' setting makes sense for 1-A's to be around. My series makes sense for a large number of 1-A's to be around. However, some people make characters who are 1-A who really don't have a story or setting to support it.

Like it could be a group of kids fighting an imperial army and they'll all be 1-A despite the plot revolving around freeing a country from an evil king....1-A doesn't fit in that story.

A group of teens-young adults must fight through a large amount of beyond dimensional deities. The series is about the right to exist. A test to see if the multiverse should exist. Higher Beings who threaten everything. That sounds like a 1-A plot.

However, tbh we can't really set a 1-A plot that couldn't as well just be 2-A. No matter how good you are. There is a point in which one just says. "I want to explore the natures of dimensions." Hence the plot of my series. Not everyone is going to fully understand the concepts of higher dimensions. Hence "beyond dimensions" is the easiest way to understand the concept for some. Heck, we can bet a ton of writers for already made 1-A verses didn't even know they were that powerful. You can vouch for that.

I know my verse is haxed. My verse is "OP" but does it mean it's bad? Nope. Does it mean its good. Nope. I make a story around dimensions because I find them interesting, Others do so because their verse will just look OP......Suggs for example.

When I make my 1-A's I give them more than just a tier they have a story and a progression to that level. You can see the characters hurdles and the reasons to why they need that level of power. Heck I have a freaking 1-A character who can even be around vegetation for 1 second before becoming completely useless unless he has a certain arte up...That lasts only 12 hours.....The vegetation does more damage to him than most attacks. Kira can't even be around FREAKING DUCKS with out being rendered completely powerless.... Yes a mighty and haxed 1-A can lose if a single duck is around.(You can clearly see I have fun with these characters XD)

However, my issue with us writers is that we say "Do we really need them to be 1-A?" I say Why not?" What's the problem with having a large amount of 1-A characters? I have a verse with about I don't know 50( is it 50? Dunno...) at most( Granted I'm cutting my cast down since I have too many characters as is.)? Is that a problem? No, not at all. You can make a verse about Talking Pieces of Cake( please don't do that...I will hate you forever XD.) and have them be OP. The question you need to answer is not "Whether I should have them that level", but "Why are they that level." Do you have a reason? Are they fighting beyond dimensional foes? Why are the foes that level? Is there an Omnipotent that made it possible for this?" Why are dimensions so important? Is it fun? Are you just being OP because you don't want to lose a match.? What is the reason? Just give us a reason. That's all we need. I'v said this like 800 times already but in the end almost everything we've discussed amounts to a few questions.

Is there a reason? Or are you just copy and pasting the tiering section entry? Just to make a quick OP character....Do you understand the concept of dimensions? Do you understand our tiering?

My personal thing is: Does this character have..well ...character? Cuz nothing is worse than an unecessarily OP character than a boring 1-Dimensional unecessarily OP character.
 
How can a being beyond all dimensions be affected by the presence of a mere 3-D duck that otherwise she wouldn't even notice?

The other points are great. Only this one I'm kinda not getting.
 
I absolutely agree with everything Dragon said. Story and setting should determine the power of a verse.
 
Yes a freaking duck. Reason being. Yuracion Energy. It is a higher dimensional power source that all living things can have. Every classification of being has their own special Yuracion Energy signature. Kira is more or less weak to the Yuracion Energy signature that the duck has than the duck itself.

Also I should point out. While Yuracion Eenergy is Beyond Dimensions. The person using it is not necessarily beyond dimensions. They can only reach that level by higher means. Be it help from an Akashic artifact, A Yuracion Deva, or The Omnipotent Creator himself.
 
I agree with everything Dragon has established.
 
@Dragon I suppose the staff can implement some rules based on what was discussed and agreed upon here, but it's just me guessing. Like, the things that are agreed to be NLF get restricted by said rules.

Then, for the case by case scenarios, maybe we just use those threads you made for this very purpose, just in case some other kind of NLF or anything of the sort appears. Then we can see and/or explain if something actually is NLF or if it's properly justified in-verse.

Other than that, it would be business as usual, I suppose. But once again, it's just my suggestion. I'll naturaly go with the staff's decision.
 
Man i was gone the whole day about this. xD

Just gonna comment from some of the older comments here.

@Dragon: IIRC, that is what me and SDZiel1217 had planned to do two years back. I haven't checked much on Ever's OC's. Last time i checked, i had only remembered 2 that he had. But if what Matt said is indeed true...then again it's been over a year and a half since we did that. Doubt anyone besides me (who was lazy to enforce it honestly) and Dragon maybe plus Prom that actually knew that....gotta put that somewhere on the Creation's page. Also, a duck? xD

And straight up on the story thing too. If there's a plot relating to it, that can work finely with even up to 1-A beings. If not, then hell nah.

Fate: Definitely agree with all you said.....this is the extremely short and to the point answer, btw. ^^; But all of your words are sound to me so yeah.

Sera: Hey again, Sera. Glad you can join here. Yeah i agree in that as well with all you said. Though different mechanics of how one thing that works in one verse but may not work in another (your example of I/O to Demonbane)......mmmm. Like that idea of it.
 
Sorry i was not around til' today, y'all kind of had a bad day yesterday and earlier today so i had to take time. Glad this discussion was going very well.

Anyways, Fate has a point in that not all verses have to have Tier 1's to be interesting or powerful or whatever, as he noted of the verses he pointed out. Some may not be potent or some may not have op hax as a whole, but they are still liked by a lot of people regardless due to the plot and characters themselves and other such factors.

People here CAN make tier 1's if they want AND if they know of dimensions and such and how they work (according to how our tier system of it works at least). Of course as Dragon said, one would probably have to ask themselves "do i really NEED to have them at this level?" or something like what he said. For me, i've known this system for a while and though i kind personally question if someone here thinks i know of it to an extent by now......maybe (^^;), i do had thoughts of putting up Tier 1 characters. To anyone that's known me for over a year, i've attempted to do Tier 1's myself in the past...and they failed each time due to just not feeling really good to what i thought otherwise. And though i CAN do it again with another character i recently have that could very well be a potential tier 1, i didn't do it since i didn't want to try and do them again like the previous times.....that and plot reasons. Pretty much why i stop out at High 2-A...hopefully. ^^;

So yeah point being is plot, characterization, and setting like what Fate said is pretty important and what i and others here have been trying to do for this wikia on that: Story and Character Creationing. That should be the main point and drive to do if anything, really.
 
No problem at all, Cross, things have been going rather smoothly, thanks to all. ^_^

And I agree with your points too.

By the way, starting today, tomorrow or as soon as this discussion gets resolved, I'll get back to the power pages. Here's hoping I can keep up a good work with that and help the wiki on my end as well.
 
@Fate: Thanks man. And it's good that this discussion has been made and going well in my day absence....gotta have people make things like this besides myself. Seriously, why am i the one that does this? xD

@Matthew: Oh.....even better. :)
 
Wow I didn't know my combat roleplay deductions would apply in such a thread like this. To put from a different perspective, I agree with what Matt and Cross have to say here. I think of the tier 1-A case in much the same way two FCOC writers roleplay against each others OCs. If you want a brief example, take my friend and me for example. Continuiing Sera's notion of "being story driven", OP verses should have some solid story reasoning behind them. I take Sera's approach whereas my friend whose name I will not disclose to preserve privacy takes the borderline Suggs/Seeker approach not providing a good logical reasoning on why his OCs have the power levels as they do in the present instead using fallacious irrelevant reasoning such as "I have been working on my verse for seven years and got some abilities from my friends so its natural that your verse is weaker than mine" bullcrap because the time you work on a verse does not neccessarily make your reasoning any more solid and can be considered as a NLF.

We should seriously implement some kind of minimum word limit on why said OC is like tier 3 and above because otherwise we would get bland and brief 3 liner explanations. Personally what I think a 1000 word limit must be implemented i.e if a character is tier 3 and above, the user must provide a 1000 word essay on why their character is on that level and the normal laws of physics of that verse not be broken without a solid reasoning whether be logical or academic reasoning.
 
@Himiko IMO most people wouldn't even bother to do that- I mean, I'm in advanced English and I still struggle (not that it's hard, just that it's boring to do) to do a 500 word paper. =P

What I'd recommend is just to be simple and to the point. Get out the most important details and descriptions on why said character is that tier, and that's it. You may expand upon it, but that's what I think is the best. This way, we have something basic to capitalize on and enforce here. If it's required to have a long arse essay, then it would likely detract people from coming here.

Plus, I don't think a lot of people have time to read a wall of text. It's not like Goku has a 1000 word essay for being tier 3-A. ^^'
 
Though I agree with you Xmark, nothing excuses laziness. If a character is Tier 1 and above at least, their potency should be explained well enough and not just use powerscaling. I know some people prefer straightforwardess over long explanations (like Ever) but it should at least be long enough to explain the tier.
 
Well, as long as there's blogs that explain the reasoning. That's fine. Perhaps a link to the blog in the description of Attack Potency or a note somewhere would also work.
 
Following.

Also, from what I can tell, my characters should be fine (especially Red Alert, Tokyo!, seeing as it's highest is Teir 8 and the only one with any notable hax is Agent A).

Speaking of hax, though, I will be working on Gold's profile a bit. I've already got a Verse profile typed up, which explains a lot of my headcannon for Pokemon (explanations for the breaks in the laws of physics, inconsitencies, trainers surviving Pokemon attacks, etc, and even the possible socio-political aspects of Pokemon). So, uh... That'll be out sometime in the near future.

I'd agree to maybe a paragraph or two as a minimum explaination for why a character is Tier 3+. I'd think that's fair, though 1,000 words seems a bit much.
 
Cookies! *noms cookies*

Anyway, we don't need full on paragraphs to explain tiers per se, but I think members should try to put more into their characters, regardless of tier (except maybe Tier 0) instead of just, "powah!". Using the Kanza Collection as an example again, it has very hax/op characters but they are full of personality, morals, and ideals.

The Masadaverse is beloved because of its characters' personalities (I'm looking at you Reinhard >.>) rather than power or story. But I do know some members who are interested in concepts found in Tier 1.
 
Exactly. I mean look at Yuracion Absolon. The characters have their own fun personality. They are all screw-ups when it comes to doing "normal" things. I prefer to have fun with my quirky OP/haxy character's personalities than power. Heck even my main villai is nothing but a troll. He's fun loving but threatening. Despite being, well, a main antagonist.

Anywho. We got what we wanted to say here right. Though I think for fun we could have a character and verse discussion thread. May be fun. Actually......https://vsbattles.com/fcoc-vs-battles/25427
 
Well since I don't add the tiers personally not gonna do it XP

Are there even any tier 1s on this wiki?

And has there been any battles involving these overly haxed/hax resistant characters and tier 1s?

Well I took a look and there are a total of 63 and none of which have even been near the square circle here before.

While I agree that personality means more than powers, it just feels like you are all paranoid for no reason at all as none of the 1-A characters have been put into fights.

But I do see that this is about how new characters are immune to hax for no reason. I think that powers should be written out just like on my sheets to limit confusion and so that the power listing section isn't a jumbled mess. ^ ^;
 
I actually agree with Sera and Himiko on this one.

And no, we're not being paranoid, Imo. All the problems pointed out actually happened to a degree or another and were INCREASING - if the problem is not adressed as soon as possible, these things simply multiply.

Of course people will hardly make tier 1 matches because there's a rule for that.

But the problem wasn't Tier 1 matches.

In regards to Tier 1's, what we were adressing was something around the lines of "Making tier 1's is the easiest thing in the world. Making quality ones is the hard part."

I could go around myself right now and make a ridiculously OP verse simply by making like 10 pages or so only with stats, a few justifications and slapping "This guy is this strong because x, y z" and I would be done with it." while giving all of them a swiss army knife of hax. But then they would all be low quality and Suggs-like. Which would make people cringe.

And besides, the tier 1 thing was only one of the problems we were adressing. Not necessarily the main one and most definitely not the only one. With all due respect, none of us is being paranoid, considering we've actually seen this happening.
 
Basically what Fate said. We aren't paranoid. Heck remember some people(like me) have downgraded their Tier 1's temporarily or some had to because of horrible reasoning. Others have been deleted and such.
 
Gives a doughnut to Fate

While I don't really see it as a problem as not even 1/4 of the characters on this site have hax immunity or absolute hax, it seems like a witch hunt that might be unavoidable at some point. Still seems like paranoia for a group of minorities that aren't represented that much on the wikia.
 
Like we already said, this is happening right now. It isn't paranoia if you're not imagining things - they are happening.

And this is not the first time either.

These things. Actually happened before as Cross pointed out. And we have had threads regarding that. As a result blogs had to be made, people made revisions in their verses and new rules for Tier 1's and 0 were implemented even before this discussion was ever made. It's just happening again.

And once again, Tier 1 was not the only reason this discussion was made. It's only one of the points that need to be adressed.
 
Witch Hunt? No. A witch hunt would be scouting for verses with a ton of 1-A's and deleting them. Like we said we could careless if you have a lot of 1-A's as long as there is a reason for it. A good reason for it. Like we said we don't want this to be Suggsverse the VsBattles Wiki because 70% of the pages are 1-A characters with completely overpowered abilities and almost no personality or depth. So no it isn't a witch hunt. Calling out bad 1-A pages does not make it a witch hunt.

And yes this is a problem. We have even had members who wanted to leave due to this problem. So yes this is a problem as we can actually lose members due to this. This has happened multiple times before and now it is happening again.
 
Also, that's a strawman when you say "it sure seems like a witch hunt for 1-A characters" when we're not telling anyone to stop making them and we already agreed that anyone can make them as they want AS LONG as they're not simply Suggsmaterial and are properly justified.

Witch Hunt would be if we were going "Delete all tier 1! You can't make them anymore!" or something of the sort.
 
You should really wait a few minuets before retorting as I always constantly change my wording and a Witch Hunt doesn't have to be by force as it can be metaphorical.
 
So there has been characters like this recently?

No need to get defensive I was just giving my two cents about it that's all fufufu XP
 
And to be fair why does it matter if there is rarely any activity here battle-wise? Honestly, character creation is supposed to be fun and since it's fiction it is meant to be unrealistic and up to the author's will.

I say let them not explain absolute hax and 120% Hax immunity as long as they have fun because there are and most likely will never be 1-A fights (as Fate even stated). So who cares if Moku (definitely not a Goku knockoff) can burp multiverses away. We are creators and we are supposed to have fun when we create and not limit other's creativity no matter how outlandish it may appear.

You may think that you are doing the right thing, but like I say time and time again, making sheets is supposed to be fun not restrictive in anyway and by making people explain fiction with logic just ruins the mood. While fun is different from person to person, we are only people and we rarely tolerate being advised what to do with what we make.
 
Plus, not to be the strawman again, but aren't wikis about creating and sharing your creations with others? So one would think that allowing people to have a OP-Hax character creation duck measuring contest would be fine, especially if these characters are never featured in fights.
 
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