Regarding Mario

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm familiar with the fact that Mario's tiering got brought up several times in the past, but this has really been bugging me lately.

Mario's tier is a variable. I understand that, and I'm not against that in the slightest. In fact, it's beneficial. But if that's the case, why is 4-A a matter of possibility? And the reason for the possibly is flawed. It says "due to the nature of the series." Kinda doesn't make sense to me. What nature? That the good guy always wins? Or that it has no sense of chronological order? If it's the former, makes no sense, given that it's the case with every fiction. And if it's the latter, still makes no sense. Other than Pokemon, Zelda, and Metroid, no Nintendo games have a set order/canon. I don't even think Sonic has a timeline. Doesn't stop us from rating Hyper Sonic and Kirby at full on 4-A. Even non-games aren't always linear. The obvious Marvel and DC, shows with "monster of the week" tropes, etc. The "due to varying statistics" part makes no sense because we have no qualms about varying statistics.

Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, and maybe Peach should have their 4-C peaks moved to 4-A.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Should I highlight this?

 

[Ryukama]

I believe it's due to the fact that not only Mario is incredibly inconsistent, but has been confirmed to literally not have a continuity. So one game is essentially a different Mario entirely. Hence the variable tier.

One thing I am rather iffy on though, is the way we handle the scaling of characters.

Mario has a "Varies from Small City to Large Star." Whereas Bowser has a "Varies from Country level to Large Star" despite that he's consistently defeated by Mario, so his low end should match up with Mario's I feel.

Bowser Jr. on the other hand gets the "Small City to Large Star," despite being said to be very close to power to Bowser.

People like Birdo, Petey, etc. only have City level scaling to the Mario Bros however. And Donkey Kong isn't scaled to him at all despite their consistent bouts, though this might make sense if we're only judging his DK Series showings.

There are also a few ratings which seem a bit questionable, such as Large Star level Koopalings. Which regardless of me finding it seemingly silly I guess is still legit given the powerscaling.

However isn't the whole point of Mario having a variable tier that he's different levels of power in different games and that continuity as a whole is nonexistent? So why are characters being scaled to a Mario who's performing vastly greater feats than the games they fought him in?

I think due to heavy inconsistencies with Mario, there should be some clearly outlined way of scaling people similar to what Marvel and Pokemon has. In particular outlining who does and does not scale to this feat and that appearance.

Also Bowser's supernova feat should preferably get calculated one of these days.

 

[The_Everlasting]

The sense that Mario has absolutely no continuity. There's no order of events or true sense of what's canon and what isn't, and the drastically differing feats in each game makes it hard to determine.

Also, just some minor nitpicks:

"If it's the former, makes no sense, given that it's the case with every fiction."

That's just untrue. There's an entire trope about it with various subpages.

"Other than Pokemon, Zelda, and Metroid, no Nintendo games have a set order/canon."

I think Fire Emblem would like to have a word.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with this entire post.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I'm not really well versed in Mario enough to give any solid ideas, but I will say Bowsers 6-B feat isn't really an Attack Potency feat. It's just Transmutation with Countrywide range as far as I can tell, no quantifiable energy being exerted. Although, I wonder if we can derive PE from all the blocks...

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Ever. Which is why I want it to be "varies from Low 7-B to 4-A instead of Low 7-B to High 4-C, possibly 4-A. Also, fine on the nitpicks. Though I was exaggerating on the first thing (I've played Modern Warfare)

Also, I obviously don't want everyone to get the scaling, as there are characters who would obviously only be the level of Mario's lowest. Like Petey Piranha and other bosses of that calibur (Eyerok, Big Bully, Goomboss, etc.) It's the recurring cast that should be at that level of peak-ness.

@Ryu. But that's entirely my point. Why do we have a variable tier for everything and the kitchen sink (it's a phase. Look it up ovo), but have that one there as possibly?

 

[Ryukama]

TBH I kinda wanted different keys for like 3 or 4 of Mario's more notable feats within games. Since there is no continuity and showings between games heavily vary.

There is a potential problem of clutter the page we've tried to resolve before, but I think with the whole "Varies. Ranges from ____ to ____ possibly ____ or ____ at his peak" is already filling up his page almost as much as a couple of keys would, probably even more so with the added words.

Just something like Low 7-B | 4-A | 3-C and the like. But it's whatever most feel is best.

Regardless I still think a clearly outlined scaling guide most of us can agree with should be made. And that Bowser's supernova feat gets calculated and evaluated.

 

[Dark649]

It's preferable to ask these questions to DinoRangerBlack before modifying the pages.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Not sure if that can be calc'd...

 

[The_Everlasting]

And that Bowser's supernova feat gets calculated and evaluated.

http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/super-mario-galaxy-2-calcs-part-2.33558/

Is this the one?

 

[Cropfist]

That seems to be surviving the black hole which we treat as unquantifiable.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I also agree with Ryukama. And if I may add, Miyamoto has mentioned that he took some inspiration from Popeye the Sailor Man when creating Mario and Donkey Kong.

 

[NotAMarioFan(lol)]

Do you have a certain link @dark

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Oh yeah, Here and Here

In addition, it was mentioned in the webpage for the Popeye Arcade and NES game. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popeye_(video_game)

 

[Radicalcoolade1]

I mean due to mario's inconsistencies, shouldnt his tier just be unknown with feats that rise from universal and multi galactic, then all the way down to large star level

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Radicalcoolade

Having a tier ranked as unknown generally causes more confusion because it makes it difficult to determine what versus threads they may be used in. But we do know variable ranges of power which is terms such as "At Least" and "Possibly" come in. It's also important to not that certain power ups may increase a tier.

 

[Radicalcoolade1]

@Radicalcoolade
Having a tier ranked as unknown generally causes more confusion because it makes it difficult to determine what versus threads they may be used in. But we do know variable ranges of power which is terms such as "At Least" and "Possibly" come in. It's also important to not that certain power ups may increase a tier.

I know but isnt the Mario canon already as confusing as it is?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Same thing could be said about alot of other characters on this site. But anyway, I think it's best to have DinoRangerBlack take a look.

 

[NotAMarioFan(lol)]

Would it be best to just to set the tier like Low 7-B | 4-A | 3-C higher at his peak for defeating enemies with certain items that power them up like bowser with grand star and other items he used in previous games?

 

[Radicalcoolade1]

I would say for Mario's tier

Varies From Low 7-B To High 4-C | 4-A | 3-B higher at peak

 

[Dark649]

Varies From Low 7-B To High 4-C | 4-A | 3-B, higher at peak

It's best to hear DinoRangerBlack opinion about this, before making such upgrade.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Where does 3-B come from? And I also agree we should wait for DRB.

 

[Dark649]

Where does 3-B come from?.

Likely in Mario Galaxy where Mario defeated Bowser, who "survived" the destruction of the universe, which is the same as saying that Mario is 2-C for defeating Dreamy Bowser.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

I wasn't aware this thread existed. Sorry, everyone. Anyway, it would be better if we leave the profile the way it is. Honestly, we have several discussion about which stats to use from sperating his feats from PM, to suggesting dividers among his games, to leaving him at only one stat and we still run into controversy about the page. Leaving the stats at variable would be the best solution due to the varying nature of the series and characters. Plus, it would be more fair to characters who achieved similar feats but aren't scaled to their opponents either.

 

[Ryukama]

Having multiple keys for a few of the more notable feats in games gets across the same message of the varying stats, but it's also neater and easier to understand.

We already add things such as the Large Star, MSS, etc. via these appearances in the game. Different key for each of these appearances is just neater and more clear on this. The stats are still variable, but each of these varying stats are differentiated.

But regardless of keeping it as it is, there's still an issue of the way we're scaling them to be rather inconsistent.

And that we're rating characters like the Koopalings to Large Star or Mallow and Smithy as straight on Large Star.

I thought the point of the variable tier was describing how Mario shows feats of varying levels from different games. So why are characters being scaled to much higher levels for fighting Mario in a different game than those feats were performed in?

And there are other characters like Cranky Kong, Petey, Birdo, etc. that are rated at vastly lower levels despite having the same scaling that all these Large Stars have.

I also think some clear outline like Pokemon and Marvel should be described for how people are being scaled, regardless if whether or not there are different keys or what. As well as that supernova feat getting calced.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I believe that only characters that appeared in the Galaxy games should get the LS/MSS rating.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

If we do that, we will be back to square one then. Again, the stats widely varies across the games and it's already proven that people will disagree with seerating the stats due to the games they appeared on. When we did this for the SMG games, we had a discussion thread about the issues regarding it and decided to go with variable stats instead. And ask for organization, there is nothing disorganized on the current page as of now. The varying statistics is currently the best solution at this point.

The Koopalings have fought Mario multiple number of times and unlike Birdo and Petey, there are often treated as formidible opponents rather than just mere obstacles or characters we know from previous game. For the SMRPG characters, the playable cast are comparable to each other like your typical RPG and the characters who debuted in this game didn't appear in future or previous title that might suggest otherwise. Scaling them to the character's higher ends is pretty warrant for them.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The thing is, the points being made here I agree with, and that's why this thread was made. If we treat Mario's tier as a variable, then why is his 4-A stat possibly instead of inserted into said variable?

 

[Dark649]

Why is his 4-A stat possibly instead of inserted into said variable?

Because Mario did not performed the 4-A feat, it was Yoshi.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Um, Mario's 4-A feat comes from Galaxy. I had to get Yoshi's 4-A feat (which is regarded as 4-C for some reason) added well after the galaxy upgrades.

 

[Ryukama]

Well I know when the Koopalings are usually considered more comparable to Mario, but I guess it seems odd to scale them to games they never appeared in, if we're going to treat each game as different varying tiers of Mario.

Also yeah the SMRPG characters are comparable to the main cast in that game. But if the cast's tiers vary between different games, what is there to suggest that in this game they were Large Star? What feats or statements make them Large Star in this game as opposed to the lower ends of Small City or Country? If we're going to scale the to Large Star then I think we should at least give them a variable like most that are being scaled to them.

And again like Pokemon and Marvel, I think there should be some sort of outline for scaling these characters.

What exactly makes this character Building and City level yet Large Star for others that also scale to them? Game Mechanics? Their status as bosses? Lore? What? of right now, at least to the uninitiated, it seems that the scaling is inconsistent and arbitrary decided on who gets low and high end scaling.

Like how Marvel and Pokemon has listed categories and guidelines to scaling their characters, I think Mario should have the same.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

Because again, the character varies in power throughout the games and despite Bowser being notably more powerful, he constantly defeated by Mario in base form, even with artifacts powering him up. Scaling him means scaling Bowser and it would make the artifacts where he achieved higher power obselete.

 

[Dark649]

Um, Mario's 4-A feat comes from Galaxy.

Mario has dozens of feats, some may think that he is 3-C, or even 2-C from damaging Bowser, but these things should not be considered.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Popeye also had dozens of feats, and we rate him as solid 4-B and Low 2-C due to one of each. Heck, even Goku has MCB syndrome in his series, and he's rated how he is (I'm not saying that it's wrong in the slightest)

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

There's nothing odd about it since it's warrant at this point. Especially when they fought him with his paper counterpart in Paper Jam.The variable stats are already present in the Koopalings as well, so there's really no issue there.

There is really no need to have one. Despite varying tier, it's not that hard to compare the characters in terms of strength. It's really depedant on their role and how formidble they are treated. Take the Kirby verse, certian characters like Kracko fought Kirby numerous times but is only Planet level since he's clearly isn't on the same level while Nightmare, who only appeared in one game barring the Kirby Quest minigame, appeared once. It's quite clear that the Koopalings and the SMRPG cast are more formidble in comparison to the characters such as Birdo and Petey, hence why their stats are scaled off of him.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

@Cal

Again, this go back to my previous explaination. Scaling Mario to those feats means scaling Bowser since he's often treated being stronger than him but then it would conflict with reason he needs the artifacts hence why the higher end feats for the characters are just left as a possibility or "higher".

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

But Bowser is 3-C with his artifacts as opposed to 4-A, making that point moot.

No offense at all, if that offended you unintentionally.

 

[Ryukama]

Well if there's something like Kirby where the lesser bosses aren't scaled yet more significant ones within the story are, then I suppose that'd be fine.

Except Kracko isn't scaled to Kirby at all. He's scaled to Knuckle Joe. Whereas these others are still scaled to Mario, just at his lower showings. But whatever most think is best I'm fine with.

I still think it'd be good to have the supernova feat get calced. I guess I'll request a calc member later today.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

@Cal None taken. If you still wish to discuss about this, just leave a message on my wall.