Regarding abilities and their justifications

[Confluctor]

Can't think of a better title

STAFF ONLY

Anyway, recently I came across TTGL and found out most of the abilities are missing justification and scans. When I made a thread to fix that, I found out that the explanation for those abilities is on a blog which is linked on the verse page.

The problem is, the abilities on the page are barebone and lacks any form of reasoning, and the blog isn't linked anywhere on those files. So, I think we need to make it clear that in the future, every profile needs to take time and effort to justify abilities on the page itself rather than making a blog for it on putting it on the verse page. That's just wrong.

Apparently aside from TTGL, another verse does this too, but I couldn't find it. The profiles just has abilities and the reasoning is explained elsewhere, which I think is just about the worst way one could possibly make a character file.

So, I think we need to make a note about that so future files don't use blogs and explain the abilities on the page itself. Now, blogs which explains the abilities more and gives greater context is fine, but the problem is, that context, scans, and justifications should also exist on the file itself. Almost all files do that, and there shouldn't be exceptions.


We have another issue that needs to be addressed too. I will take Anos' page since it's the worst offender of it.

Reactive Power Level (The torch flares up with renewed vigour just before it extinguishes, and uses it to overcome extinguishment[11].

This links to an entire chapter in Japanese. No English translation anywhere in sight. And this isn't the only time an entire chapter was linked. Unless you can read Japanese, quite a number of the links on this page are rather... Useless.

The page does a fine job with explaining things, however, the links not so much.

Something needs to be done about both issues.


Tl;dr:

• We need to make sure abilities are added to files straight away instead of explained in some blog. This is bad practice, otherwise.
• Only relevant scans needs to be linked. Extra context is always appreciated - I do it too for my comic files - but a whole chapter is just too much.

 

[Confluctor]

@Antvasima

 

[imZer0Null]

We have another issue that needs to be addressed too. I will take Anos' page since it's the worst offender of it.
This links to an entire chapter in Japanese. No English translation anywhere in sight. And this isn't the only time an entire chapter was linked. Unless you can read Japanese, quite a number of the links on this page are rather... Useless.

The page does a fine job with explaining things, however, the links not so much.

I obviously cannot speak for all Maou Gakuin verse supporters, but I know that the majority of people I've personally asked prefer linking to the relevant original raw Japanese chapter that they can then mtl themselves instead of linking to a very poorly translated scan, because despite both options being poorly translated, the extra context available with the entire chapter surely helps with better understanding the feat/statement. However, I'm certain almost all verse supporters know this is not ideal, and as is evident on Anos' profile page we have been trying to fix this. (Roughly 50% of Anos' Powers and Abilities section, magic eyes included, actually links to decently translated scans on Imgur.)
Still, I believe all justifications on Anos' profile page at least do a good job at explaining things, and compared to profiles which have no scans at all, it is still better to at least link the relevant original raw Japanese chapters.
I personally am also waiting for the Light Novel to hopefully receive an official translation after the series' upcoming second season animation, as that would very obviously make creating scans much easier.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I do think abilities being explained in blogs is fine if there is a link to the blog in the justification itself (so something like 'Nonexistent Physiology' [Short justifcation linking to a blog with a better justification]) and the ability itself is something that requires a great deal of context and can't be realistically explained in 1 to 2 sentences. Though realistically speaking, most abilities can be explained just fine with an imgur/gfycat link and a reference.

 

[Confluctor]

Even 3 of 4 sentences are fine if the ability takes too long to explain. Some of my justifications has like 5 sentences in it. Give context and the feat as short as possible. I don't think we need an entire blog section for NEP. Blogs are fine, as I already mentioned, but shouldn't be encouraged in this manner.

Imgur album used for description is obviously better too.

Also staff thread :/

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Even 3 of 4 sentences are fine if the ability takes too long to explain. Some of my justifications has like 5 sentences in it. Give context and the feat as short as possible. I don't think we need an entire blog section for NEP. Blogs are fine, as I already mentioned, but shouldn't be encouraged in this manner.

Also staff thread :/

Well like I said, it depends on the context. For NEP, for example, sometimes it's an open and shut case, but in other scenarios it may rely on in-verse concepts that require a greater deal of explanation. I also think trying to limit the number of sentences in a justification is ideal, especially for already text heavy profiles like Anos.

As you said, though, this is a staff thread, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Zaratthustra]

I obviously cannot speak for all Maou Gakuin verse supporters, but I know that the majority of people I've personally asked prefer linking to the relevant original raw Japanese chapter that they can then mtl themselves instead of linking to a very poorly translated scan, because despite both options being poorly translated, the extra context available with the entire chapter surely helps with better understanding the feat/statement. However, I'm certain almost all verse supporters know this is not ideal, and as is evident on Anos' profile page we have been trying to fix this. (Roughly 50% of Anos' Powers and Abilities section, magic eyes included, actually links to decently translated scans on Imgur.)
Still, I believe all justifications on Anos' profile page at least do a good job at explaining things, and compared to profiles which have no scans at all, it is still better to at least link the relevant original raw Japanese chapters.
I personally am also waiting for the Light Novel to hopefully receive an official translation after the series' upcoming second season animation, as that would very obviously make creating scans much easier.

It was agreed that the raw text can be used only with an english translation be it done by a machine or a person (a fan, yourself, etc) - as long as both are present then its good so its credibility can be verified. Not like in this case where only one is. Sincerely this is pretty big flaw which could affect his profile ''existence'' on wiki if you get what I mean.

Now coming on the thread. I agree with you Confluctor. The abilities should have some explanation on the P&A section or a way see from where they come (example: Fire Manipulation [Via/With Fireball, Blackfire Bombs, Giant Chaos Fireball, etc] then in the technique section have it explained).

 

[Confluctor]

I obviously cannot speak for all Maou Gakuin verse supporters, but I know that the majority of people I've personally asked prefer linking to the relevant original raw Japanese chapter that they can then mtl themselves instead of linking to a very poorly translated scan, because despite both options being poorly translated, the extra context available with the entire chapter surely helps with better understanding the feat/statement. However, I'm certain almost all verse supporters know this is not ideal, and as is evident on Anos' profile page we have been trying to fix this. (Roughly 50% of Anos' Powers and Abilities section, magic eyes included, actually links to decently translated scans on Imgur.)
Still, I believe all justifications on Anos' profile page at least do a good job at explaining things, and compared to profiles which have no scans at all, it is still better to at least link the relevant original raw Japanese chapters.
I personally am also waiting for the Light Novel to hopefully receive an official translation after the series' upcoming second season animation, as that would very obviously make creating scans much easier.

I think we all understand how much work you have put into the verse. But the problem is linking an entire chapter is just not ideal.

You can add a reference and that's good. Should take care of it. When you add links, that means it has evidence for everyone - which this doesn't due to language barrier.

 

[Damage3245]

This links to an entire chapter in Japanese. No English translation anywhere in sight. And this isn't the only time an entire chapter was linked. Unless you can read Japanese, quite a number of the links on this page are rather... Useless.

Linking to a raw page shouldn't be acceptable, yeah. This is an English wiki.

 

[Tllmbrg]

For the Amos thing I’d say they should at least minimize the scan to be just the relevant part instead of a whole chapter, I’d also add a note somewhere linking to translations as well so people can check those

As for the blog thing, they should be linked on the page if someone made that but otherwise I don’t see an issue with linking a blog as an explanation for P&As

 

[Confluctor]

Well like I said, it depends on the context. For NEP, for example, sometimes it's an open and shut case, but in other scenarios it may rely on in-verse concepts that require a greater deal of explanation. I also think trying to limit the number of sentences in a justification is ideal, especially for already text heavy profiles like Anos.

I mean this is why we have profiles for. Text heavy should be no problem.

But if they do have blog, it needs to be linked essentially in every ability which needs it. Not just on verse page.

 

[Ian2296]

.

But Null, I think the reference section is already enough for people who wanted full context of the feats and search the chapter by themselves. Like, I've also done a few translation for the feats and I know it's not perfect, but seeing it being replaced by a raw chapter that not all people have the time to translate and search for the scene again is kinda sad.
The point of translating it is to have people viewing the feats more practically.

Also, like I said earlier, even if there's a feats that's translated so bad that you can't understand the context of it, they can just search for the number of the chapter thanks to the reference section.

 

[imZer0Null]

It was agreed that the raw text can be used only with an english translation be it done by a machine or a person (a fan, yourself, etc) - as long as both are present then its good so its credibility can be verified. Not like in this case where only one is. Sincerely this is pretty big flaw which could affect his profile ''existence'' on wiki if you get what I mean.

I think we all understand how much work you have put into the verse. But the problem is linking an entire chapter is just not ideal.

You can add a reference and that's good. Should take care of it. When you add links, that means it has evidence for everyone - which this doesn't due to language barrier.

I understand. This is reasonable. I wasn't exactly trying to justify the use of the original raw Japanese chapters, but instead just trying to explain why it is currently used on his profile page.
Again, I'm certain almost all verse supporters know this is not ideal, and as is evident on Anos' profile page we have been trying to fix this, but unfortunately providing accurately translated scans is difficult and time-consuming. Regarding references, most of Anos' justifications and corresponding links were created before I personally knew that references were actually a thing on profile pages, but recently it seems that most Maou Gakuin verse supporters usually by default add a reference to a justification if possible, so I agree that it is probably no longer necessary to link to the relevant original raw Japanese chapters.
Anyways, I will now unfollow this thread. Sorry for intruding.

 

[Vietthai96]

I do think abilities being explained in blogs is fine if there is a link to the blog in the justification itself (so something like 'Nonexistent Physiology' [Short justifcation linking to a blog with a better justification]) and the ability itself is something that requires a great deal of context and can't be realistically explained in 1 to 2 sentences. Though realistically speaking, most abilities can be explained just fine with an imgur/gfycat link and a reference.

I don't thing blog could resolve problem, some verse have a long-ass blog with a wall of text just hurt people more and discourage people to read them. A blog to explain some powerful and niche, unique abilities like NEP, Concept Manip, etc......is fine, but dump everything even the most trivial and minor abilties, is not going to help.

I also against people using the excuse that capture relevant scan is time consuming. Yes it time consuming, but if it is, then you should stop making profile from the start, if you have time to make profile, make revision thread, arguing, upgrade them, why don't have time to collect scans??

 

[Antvasima]

I personally think that we need to move the contents of quite a lot of our explanation blogs to regular wiki pages. We could possibly link to them as justification in some cases. However, I personally largely agree with the OP.

Explanation Pages

vsbattles.fandom.com

@AKM sama @Promestein @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou

What do you think about all this?

 

[Damage3245]

I do think that the necessary explanations for a verse shouldn't be restricted to just one person's blog.

Not all of those blogs or their titles would be appropriate as full pages though and if we're going to acknowledge some as full pages then rewriting and structuring will likely be necessary for some of them.

In essence, it's not too different than having verse-specific powers and abilities pages, so I'm largely in favor of this.

 

[SamanPatou]

As Zara said, raw text can be used as long as it is provided next to an english translation within a blog, similarly to what we do with calculations.

I agree that P&A should be explained within profiles, the NA&T section can be freely edited to turn into a broader explanation section, when the description of something is too long for the P&A section.

Blogs should be fine, technically, but they should always be linked on the file itself and using the NA&T/Explanation section should always be preferrable.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I also agree it should be a requirement to explain abilities, though basic ass things like Superhuman Physical Characteristics and Weapon Mastery, depending on context, may not need anything- if shit's self explanatory, we shouldn't require page bloat.

Linking to on-wiki resources to explain things should be fine, yeah. Especially in instances where there's just fuckloads of individual things to explain.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, and some pages like this also apply to almost every tie 1 verse may or may not require an explanation blog since if it takes a full paragraph to explain the ratings, it may be reserved for an additional page rather than a cluttered justification next to the Attack Potency. But I also agree that the giant list of powers and abilities would also benefit from things like that. And there are also exist Tier 2 verses that require lengthy explanations to justify why they're 2-C or above as opposed to Low 2-C or what some even think sound more like High 3-A.

I agree some simpler examples may be left out though.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I definitely agree that we shouldn't be linking to blogs for explanation of powers and abilities. We specifically have a whole section on character profiles that's called "Notable Attacks/Techniques" which can be used to explain in whatever length and detail you want. Obvious exception is verse specific powers which we have guidelines and pages for already, as much as I dislike their existence.

We also shouldn't be linking to Japanese, or any non English scans. Either link to the official English translation, or link to a translation that has been accepted by the wiki through a CRT or something.

And I do agree with Antvasima that general verse explanation pages shouldn't be blogs, and be made into pages so that they can be revised, or cleaned up etc.

 

[Antvasima]

Ogbunabali seems to make good points.

 

[Elizhaa]

I agree with Og's points.
On the first point, we have this rule below:

• When creating new character profiles it is strongly preferred that you add explanations for the extents and natures of less self-evident and more confusing powers and abilities. Examples include Reality Warping, Conceptual Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, and Causality Manipulation. Such powers are likely to be inaccurately interpreted, whether by casual visitors or in versus matches. As such, it is appreciated if you specify the nature and scope of these abilities, preferably in "Notable Attacks/Techniques" sections, near the bottom of the character profiles.

Clarifying the case is a must could be helpful. Adding that evidence like scans must be present should work and expanding that the situation also apply when revising profiles; in the latter case, I found that a lot of scans for justifications to tend to be omitted on the profiles despite them being present in the CRTs where they are accepted.

On the second point, we have these Editing Rules:

• Do not create composite profiles, as they contain highly inflated statistics and do not represent a reasonable canonical version of the character at any given point in time.
  • Profiles for entire species may be acceptable, if it can be shown that the species in question would potentially be capable of having any and all of its potential characteristics at once. However, these profiles should not include exceedingly extraordinary or underwhelming feats and abilities from notable individuals of a species, and the viability of these profiles are determined on a case-by-case basis.
  • In the event that a character has no linear canon, but rather treats all of the related works as being canon without much context as to the order of events, a profile detailing all of their feats at once may also be acceptable.
  • While some verses may have a lot of stories written by a lot of different authors over a wide span of time, as long as these are all considered canon to each other, their feats can be used together without being considered a composite.

Adding a sentence that mentioned entire untranslated chapters shouldn't be added would be helpful.

 

[Eficiente]

Adding a sentence that mentioned entire untranslated chapters shouldn't be added would be helpful.

"When using evidence that includes text in other languages, it is mandatory to include a translation of it, a transcription of the text that's being translated, and the source of this text (like its name & specific page), with its name in its original language if the source doesn't have a localization. This way, people can easily research this on their own and even try their own translations if they distrust the one available. Here's an example."

Something like this.

 

[Antvasima]

Clarifying the case is a must could be helpful. Adding that evidence like scans must be present should work and expanding that the situation also apply when revising profiles; in the latter case, I found that a lot of scans for justifications to tend to be omitted on the profiles despite them being present in the CRTs where they are accepted.

Well, we cannot start mass-deleting all profile pages that do not have justifications for non-self-evident abilities, but we should mention that evidence via scans and/or references is our standard requirement.

Adding a sentence that mentioned entire untranslated chapters shouldn't be added would be helpful.

I suppose that this is probably a good idea as well.

 

[Elizhaa]

Well, we cannot start mass-deleting all profile pages that do not have justifications for non-self-evident abilities, but we should mention that evidence via scans and/or references is our standard requirement.

I, more or less, was talking more about the latter case.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems fine to apply to me then.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here exactly?

I personally think that we need to move the contents of quite a lot of our explanation blogs to regular wiki pages. We could possibly link to them as justification in some cases. However, I personally largely agree with the OP.

Explanation Pages

vsbattles.fandom.com

And I do agree with Antvasima that general verse explanation pages shouldn't be blogs, and be made into pages so that they can be revised, or cleaned up etc.

Also, would somebody be willing to help spearhead a project for what we mentioned above, and update all of the regular wiki links to the relevant blog posts to the replacement pages as well?

 

[Damage3245]

@Antvasima; I don't think we should be trying to start too many projects at once.

We've got the tier template project, the Discord images removal project, the wanted categories to sort through (I currently have 759 categories left to go through. Going to take me a few days), and probably more.

If anyone does want to get that started though, that'd be fine. Just don't want to overwork people.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, that is true. Please put it on the to-do list for something that we need to get done when we are less overworked though.

I will do so as well.

 

[Elizhaa]

Okay. That seems fine to apply to me then.

In this case, I think the Editing rule above could be modified like below:

• When creating new character profiles it is strongly noted that you add explanations for the extents and natures of less self-evident and more confusing powers and abilities, particularly with reference and evidence like scans. Examples include Reality Warping, Conceptual Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, and Causality Manipulation. Such powers are likely to be inaccurately interpreted, whether by casual visitors or in versus matches. As such, it is appreciated if you specify the nature and scope of these abilities, preferably in "Notable Attacks/Techniques" sections, near the bottom of the character profiles.
  • When applying approved changes from the content revision thread, the respective references, explanations, and evidence like scans for these types of powers and abilities must be added and not omitted.

I guess adding a sentence similar to what Eficiente suggested above should be fine, for untranslated materials cases.

Any opinions?
Edit: @Antvasima what do you think?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that mostly seemed fine, but I cleaned up the text a bit. How about this?

• When creating new character profiles it is strongly preferred that you add explanations for the extents and natures of less self-evident and more confusing powers and abilities, especially with references and evidence such as scans. Examples include Reality Warping, Conceptual Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, and Causality Manipulation. Such powers are likely to be inaccurately interpreted, whether by casual visitors or in versus matches. As such, it is appreciated if you specify the nature and scope of these abilities, preferably in "Notable Attacks/Techniques" sections, near the bottom of the character profiles.
  • When applying approved changes from a content revision thread, the respective references, explanations, and evidence, such as scans, for these types of powers and abilities must be included.
  • When using evidence that includes text in other languages than English, it is mandatory to include a translation of it, a transcription of the text that's being translated, and the source of this text (like its name and specific page), with its name in its original language if the source doesn't have a localization. This way, people can easily research this on their own and even try their own translations if they distrust the one available. Here is an example.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally think that we need to move the contents of quite a lot of our explanation blogs to regular wiki pages. We could possibly link to them as justification in some cases. However, I personally largely agree with the OP.

Explanation Pages

vsbattles.fandom.com

And I do agree with Antvasima that general verse explanation pages shouldn't be blogs, and be made into pages so that they can be revised, or cleaned up etc.

Also, would somebody be willing to help spearhead a project for what we mentioned above, and update all of the regular wiki links to the relevant blog posts to the replacement pages as well?

There is also this important issue.

 

[Elizhaa]

I think that mostly seemed fine, but I cleaned up the text a bit. How about this?

• When creating new character profiles it is strongly preferred that you add explanations for the extents and natures of less self-evident and more confusing powers and abilities, especially with references and evidence such as scans. Examples include Reality Warping, Conceptual Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, and Causality Manipulation. Such powers are likely to be inaccurately interpreted, whether by casual visitors or in versus matches. As such, it is appreciated if you specify the nature and scope of these abilities, preferably in "Notable Attacks/Techniques" sections, near the bottom of the character profiles.
  • When applying approved changes from a content revision thread, the respective references, explanations, and evidence, such as scans, for these types of powers and abilities must be included.
  • When using evidence that includes text in other languages than English, it is mandatory to include a translation of it, a transcription of the text that's being translated, and the source of this text (like its name and specific page), with its name in its original language if the source doesn't have a localization. This way, people can easily research this on their own and even try their own translations if they distrust the one available. Here is an example.

It looks good.

 

[Elizhaa]

There is also this important issue.

I kind of have to agree with Damage's points in saving the project for another time though if one got the time to handle it, then I guess it could work.

 

[Damage3245]

What is the current progress on the Tier Template project? If that one seems like it is nearing the end any time soon, then we could see about starting the official explanation pages project.

 

[KLOL506]

IDK about the whole Explanation Pages thing, a lot of them have debunks of various counterpoints from other users with names included and written in quite blunt languages with swear words and all. Debunk blogs are also prolly not suitable to be turned into wiki pages.

 

[Damage3245]

IDK about the whole Explanation Pages thing, a lot of them have debunks of various counterpoints from other users with names included and written in quite blunt languages with swear words and all. Debunk blogs are also prolly not suitable to be turned into wiki pages.

Those ones would not be suitable, yeah.

 

[KLOL506]

Those ones would not be suitable, yeah.

Like for example, suppose someone made a cosmology blog about why X verse is Universal or something and it addresses some debunks and has comments from other users to utilize in debunks. They could even be linking to specific forum thread links which might not even be available due to the Forum Move that happened.

Or for example, someone makes a debunk blog about verse tierings and stuff, and addressing the questions. Those are also most definitely not suitable for being Explanation Pages. Some of these are bound to have swear words or some shit down the line.

 

[Antvasima]

What is the current progress on the Tier Template project? If that one seems like it is nearing the end any time soon, then we could see about starting the official explanation pages project.

Amelia and Promestein are both busy IRL, so it could unfortunately take quite a while to finish.