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"Realms with starry skies" feats

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Well, DontTalkDT doesn't "Make up stuff" and saying so is a bold accusation. He was tagged to, so he might be able to step in.

He only basically said finite sized pocket realities that are nothing but space cannot be properly calculated, which I agree those are unquantifiable. But Inverse Square Law is something widely used in luminosity calculations, which that's the main thing that justified using ISL for pocket realities containing celestial bodies. Also, this needs to be shown.
Screenshot_20200313-1841312.png

I don't think there's such as thing as "Generic magic user" given what magic is in most fictions and especially in RPG verses. The mage being at a much higher level using even small AoE fireballs to take out Universal/Multiversal foes is one of the most common tropes in fiction, as much as simply punching them in the face or killing them with a sword.

No one is saying creating pocket realities equites to physical stats scaling, the issue stems from strawmans that even if the verse treats physical and magical stats interchangeably, it can't scale. If a person can use just as much telekinetic energy in a Saber throw that they can put in moving a giant ship, then it scales accordingly. The difference is that the different spells is more like a hand to hand combat fighter using different techniques to attack. Does it make sense a person has planet level karate chops, but their elbow punches are Tier 9 at best?
 
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I'll be honest, I'm open-minded enough to drop "creation=destruction" in a thread actually meant for this discussion if there wasn't the arbitrary line between tier 5-B and lower, since it exists for literally no reason.
 
If there's secretly been a branch of physics that explains that pocket dimensions can be destroyed by / contain the energy of "an explosion that would destroy the most distant celestial bodies within the pocket reality" I'd love to hear about it. I'd at least like it to be admitted that we aren't actually using real science to define these feats - I don't think me suggesting that is an attack on DontTalk's character.

Ironically, I don't see anyone crying foul when a mountain-busting feat is small city-level even if it sounds silly on paper that "guy who busted a mountain isn't mountain tier". Or in the reverse case when moon-busting is actually well above planet-busting. I thought it was common knowledge on the site that busting X doesn't usually mean X tier. So like I said earlier, the math was used purely because we didn't like the concept of these feats not lining up with the linguistics of what our tiering system calls certain energy levels.

This mage analogy is an extremely misleading given the argument. You assumed that a character the mage killed as Universal to begin with for the sake of an example, when we're not even talking about powerscaling but the quantification of feats for a single character. I'm saying that the mage themselves doing something like pooping out a storm barely ever indicates that their magically-enhanced punches and kicks have storm-levels of energy. This only makes sense and forms these trends you're talking about in the fiction if we just automatically assume everyone that survives a hit by their other spells must have whateverversal durability.

> No one is saying creating pocket realities equites to physical stats scaling

I've framed this entire argument under the assumption that there's a magic user who performs the pocket reality feat, and uses their magic to enhance physicals. This is very much a common argument for scaling that is used in practically any fantasy verse.

If they used magic to enhance their speed, we never say that they can transform the same energy they used to make pocket realities to give themselves X joules of kinetic energy and move at fractions of the speed of light. but we for some reason always say that if they used it to enhance striking strength their fists must strike with X joules.

We're willing to say speed and strength are different enough to not use energy values to scale, even if both are enhanced with the same magical power, but creating spacetime and punching aren't different enough?

> The difference is that the different spells is more like a hand to hand combat fighter using different techniques to attack. Does it make sense a person has planet level karate chops, but their elbow punches are Tier 9 at best?

This is just a false equivalency, unless you'd like to go into how "creates pocket reality with magic, punches with magic-enhanced fist" is a remotely similar situation to "punches with fist, elbows with elbow".
 
Both of those examples are backed up by calculation methods, but the same thing can be said for collapsing dimensions. Or even creating certain things depending on the method can be calculated; lifting a continent from the ocean for instance can use a KE calculation, but poofing a continent into existence is more unquantifiable. There are plenty who thing we should just use ME conversion feats for creation or EE, which I heavily disagree with for obvious reasons.

Not all mages can amp their physical strikes, those for example would not normally scale from their strongest spells to their physicals unless more other circumstances. But, I'm pretty sure what of the main reasons why our views don't line up has more to do with us having much different familiarities with different verses. But either way, there is still other details. We don't normally scale an attack that depletes nearly all their mana/energy into one move to all their more basic abilities; for example Tien is a glass cannon since Tri Beam drains a good chunk of his life force. But we do scale attacks that require far more concentration to feats that were done with regular effort generally speaking. I'm not familiar with PMMM, so I'll let SD be the judge of those examples. Yes, most verses I know of or I'm invested in have other backings, not just the universal power source, but also stuff like regular effort, physical attacks actually did disperse storms or pocket dimensions, ect. It's less about a generic nature of them using the same universal energy source or having a giant pool of mana, and more about feats being treated as things requiring same effort. Characters should almost always scale from trademark spammable techniques at least in terms of AP. But if creating dimensions is something the character has done hundreds of times on a casual basis, while their forced to use all their might in a single strike, the strike should be seen as more impressive than the dimensional creation feat.

Anyway, the real problem with PRC feats has less to do with Creation Vs Destruction and more to do with them actually being creation in the first place. Illusions are not AP, and neither is mere teleportation. Magic AP can scale to physical AP, but it should not be the default assumption. Not every verse treats magic and Ki as the same thing. Dragon Ball for example makes it clear they're two different things, and magic users in Dragon Ball a typically non fighters; for example, Shenron is just here to grant wishes and Babadi just brain washes and manipulates people. It's not like Final Fantasy where magic is their version of Ki, or like Golden Sun which uses Psynergy for both physical and magical feats.

Speed and AP are two different powers in fiction. They don't always scale accordingly, so no; we don't use magic that amps up speed as an AP feat at all. Lots of characters have superhuman strength but no superhuman speed and vice versa. It's also why Calc Stacking is a rule; because even verses with a lot of Tier 7's have their best feats peaking at barely dodging a bullet. And even verses that peak at tier 9 have Relativistic speed feats all over the place. But we do use Newton's Third Law, so before one says, "It's even more arbitrary to take some laws of physics into account but not other aspects" we already do that. I doubt it's going to go through if someone once to remove the Calc Stacking rule or remove Newton's Third Law being assumed. Though, most fictions already do use Newton's Third Law, for example Berserk.

While you're still using speed as an argument, actually while we do distinguish combat speed from movement speed, we actually do use something similar to Newton's 3rd law for something like that. Combat speed is assumed to be faster than a physical running speed, but we don't assume physical running speed is superior to combat speed. Just like how durability is at least as good as striking strength. And that's also how heat feats are going to be with DT's evaluation; all atoms and molecules are always moving at least as fast as you are, thus produces at least if not more thermal energy than your running or punching generates force. And yes, the heat feats are what I'm more interested in rather than these PRC stuff. We won't be using speed as the example for obvious reasons, but a blunt punch energy vs a thermal punch energy would be a better example.

Now back to creation feats; the only thing first and foremost that matters to me is it being an AP feat. Not a omnidirectional AP feat example, but an AP feat via whatever power method used. Reality warping moons or stars into existence isn't really something I'd consider a physical feat, or probably not even to elemental attacks by default. But people being X Tier via Reality Warping, possibly Existence Erasure if done via same method. Characters who RW things into AND out of existence can logically do the same via same method, just not always Ki Blasts, Fireballs, Punches. But creations via miniature big bangs are more likely to be solid AP feats.
 
Oh boy, is this turning into "reality-warping feats should be unquantifiable"-debate number 20124? I know it happens every year, but I didn't have it scheduled for November.
I don't really have anything to say about the issue that wasn't said in all the threads we had about the topic before. So yeah. Do I need to?

Unto the topic of the thread: I generally can agree on the "It's a pocket dimension with actual celestial objects" approach. Arguments can vary, of course.
Like, pocket realities in virtual worlds, dream worlds or in-verse fictional worlds are somewhat more likely to have fake stars than something like realms that are supposed to be spatially separate places in the real world. But that falls into the general category of finding an argument about it being actual stars.
 
@DontTalkDT tbf, it's mostly just the wording on the pocket reality page that needs more elaboration. And it's more so to avoid assuming as a default that it scales to physical attacks unless there's more in depth power scaling reasons. I think I repeated most things you often mentioned with some lose corners here and there.

It's also been clarified that today is a bad time for starting site wide projects.
 
@DontTalkDT

Yeah, I was thinking we'd have this debate around Christmas with the Heat revisions but eh.

As much as I'd like to just ignore Ant asking for my opinion on threads like these, I'm not sure what y'all were expecting asking me to comment on a Pocket Reality feats thread. But while you're here, sure, go ahead.

@DarkDragonMedeus

> Both of those examples are backed up by calculation methods,

This neither answers my question of what physics backs up these calc methods or actually makes a relevant point, moving on. As for the continent example we can just use basic logic that tells us that "creating matter out of magic energy is not the same thing as a stat boost via magic energy" based on both extremely intuitive and common fictional trends.

I'm extremely concerned if the best answer for "what is the scientific basis of this calcing method" is "it's backed up by calculation methods". I already know we use the math for other kinds of calcs, that doesn't make it any more correct. And I don't even care about it being accurate to physics, I just want some degree of self-awareness from us that yes, we're operating on physics that doesn't reflect real life, and yes, we did this because it makes our tiering system more comprehensible. But the attitude that our calc methods for these feats are actually scientifically accurate is laughable at best and dishonest at worst.

Here's a fun exercise. Go through literally every character that is tiered via a Pocket Reality feat while checking that AP vs their best physical striking feats, if they enhance their physicals via magic. I'm going to throw out an estimate and say you'll get something at like, Tier 9-8 on average, maybe higher if you include nonsensical scaling chains, with the occasional Tier 5 and above exceptions. I'll be surprised if you get more than a few characters that match this trend being pushed.

> Not all mages can amp their physical strikes ... Not every verse treats magic and Ki as the same thing.

This was a very long and unnecessary set of paragraphs explaining something I can do in less than a sentence. "Physical Feat A and Esoteric Feat B done by character A are both done via magic, they scale". Establishing that they use magic for physical strikes is something that I'm already assuming you're capable of doing with this argument, my claim is that establishing this doesn't make the feats any more translatable.

> Speed and AP are two different powers in fiction. They don't always scale accordingly, so no; we don't use magic that amps up speed as an AP feat at all.

It utterly boggles my mind that you consider Speed and AP to be too different to scale via energy values but creating space-time is similar enough to scale to physical strikes "because they're both magic". Like, there's basically no difference between speed and striking strength in real life since the velocity of a punch determines its kinetic energy but we have the mind to realize that authors make a clear distinction between the stats in fiction. But for ... reasons, we scale stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with striking to it because, what, it doesn't sit well with people that a character who can create pocket dimensions can't also punch hard? There's no fictional trend saying that these attacks should scale since there's no basis of characters who actually have striking feats in-league with their esoterics, even if they use magic for both, so clearly this is just something we've contrived ourselves.
 
This wasn't a very good time to begin with here, which is why it was a better idea to close the thread in the first place before it escalated. But Christmas time isn't a good idea either, Summer times are really the best times to be going over the entire site.

Creating matter and destroying matter are the same concept but in the opposite direction. And it's more so the laws of Chemistry rather than physics in this regard. It can neither be created or destroyed in the traditional sense, only converted from one form to another. By the laws of traditional physics, no character in fiction is any higher than High 3-A. But the problem is, creating planets is commonly seen in fiction as a legitimate feat, so we cannot just pretend they aren't feats outright. It's even seen as cherry picky if creating Tier 2 and above universes is legit AP but creating things less than that isn't. Even Tier 1 stuff is based on a wide variety of philosophical concepts or theories related to geometry and all that.

Even the Tier 11 or Tier 2 and above stuff is related to quantum mechanics. There's the existence of countable infinity, uncountable number, and uncountable infinity for each dimensional scale. Most 3-D beings are 0 on a 4-D or above scale. Likewise we're not quite infinity on a 2-D or less scale either. Tier 11 and below are recovered for those 0 on the next dimensions respective scales. While at the same time, we don't assume characters with some 11-D energy are infinite on a 3-D scale let alone 10-D scale. Hence while a 11-D planet can still be 5-B. If you're that concerned about general physics, we might as well do the same for Tier 11 and Tier 2-0 stuff if "Unspecified middle" concerns people. I'm self aware that our system breaks logic while only maintaining certain aspects, but so does every fiction. It's not that the laws of Physics or Chemisty exists, it's just that each and every verse has its own laws of physics.

And okay, let's see.
  • I suppose the creation Trio from Pokemon would be Tier 5 since they don't have a destruction feat exceeding that, only creations are Tier 2.
  • FF 7 is still Tier 4 because they actually shatter those pocket realities as is Vyse from Skies of Arcadia.
  • Castlevania uses 4-A feats for scaling, there's also a Moon level feat via the "Endless Night" calc. But I'm not sure I'd want to say anything further.
  • There's also something about a Galaxy level feat from FF 8, but forgot full context.
  • I don't know anything about Dark Souls, but maybe Tier 6?
  • Kingdom Hearts perhaps Tier 8?
  • Wind Fish doesn't actually scale from his Pocket Reality feat physically, but Link actually destroys some High 4-C pocket realities so slight downgrade for Hylia/Demise tiers I wouldn't mind that.
  • Kirby actually does have some dimensions being destroyed via physical strikes iirc, so no affections.
  • DMC and God of War have quite a few creation feats with little to no destruction, I wouldn't mind those verses being downgraded to Tier 6 tbh. Though, DMC also merged 2 Universes and effected some universal space-time. GoW also had some flavor text of shaking 9 pocket realities that have super vague universal statements.
  • Kid Icarus has a few 4-A feats from Dyntos, he's other wise be 6-B scaling above Hades being "strong enough to decimate a country or two in an instant". And there's a lot of questions about his feat, so I have no objections to the downgrade.
  • Mario already has a thread working on revisions, I'm saving it there. But there are several destruction feats and durability feats being collected
  • My Little Pony, not sure what some other contexts are, but it seems they have other backings.
  • Kaguya have a High 4-C pocket reality feat via a very specific technique, not scaled to begin with.
  • Bleach God Tiers scale from Yhwach merging the three planets, and Soul King's existence stabilizes a 4-A sized pocket reality that collapses when he dies.
  • The rest, are verses I either have forgotten about, or simply I'm unfamiliar with the context.

The difference was I was trying to be more elaborate. It's not as simple as "Physical Power A uses a universal magic energy source, Supernatural Power B also uses the same magical energy source, they scale". Saying so is strawmanning me, it's more like they use the same amount of if not more Magic/Ki/Energy concentration, then it scales. But that's just the beast inside me I suppose

The difference is you're comparing a speed feat to an AP feat, but then contrasting two things that are both AP feats. Actually, KE = 0.5 * M * V^2, you can be slow and heavy and still have high AP. And you can be fast and light but still have low AP, you just have to be either super dense physically or super shallow physically respectively. But we do scale the A >= B if the formula works IRL but we don't scale B as equal to A. It's not the A * B^2 = C followed by a C = B; that's the Speed vs Striking Strength difference. It could be assumed that using magic to raise speed just makes you that much lighter by the same formula. But using magic to amp AP can make you much heavier likewise. Muscle is heavier than fat, not lighter than air. Or maybe magic can just make your sword or fist just really really sharp, or it can just make it really really hot, or just anything really. We don't have to break our calc stacking rule over it.

Never assume but always consider opening your mind to an infinite number of possibilities. So at the end result, I don't see how it's boggling to at least for it to be possible for a magic user to amp striking strength. Evidence needed yes, but even so. It's not like the equalizing speed vs AP is "That much worse".
 
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DarkDragonMedeus said:
  • DMC and God of War have quite a few creation feats with little to no destruction, I wouldn't mind those verses being downgraded to Tier 6 tbh
Click to expand...
DMC's Universal feats aren't reliant on creation-based feats or pocket-dimension feats tho, not anymore, it's now literally based on Argosax merging the Human realm and the Demon realm just by existing, both the Human Realm and Demon Realm have been proven to be actual genuine universes, we discarded Mundus's feat and the obviously-not-serious tweet from Kamiya. If anything, we don't use pocket dimensional creation or destruction feats as part of DMC's AP at all.

In short, Argosax merges the two universes by being the heccin' stronk.

IDK the basis for God of War so I'll let Kep elaborate on that.
 
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DarkDragonMedeus said:
  • I suppose the creation Trio from Pokemon would be Tier 5 since they don't have a destruction feat exceeding that, only creations are Tier 2.
Click to expand...
I understand what you're trying to say with these examples, but Pokémon isn't really an excellent example of this. Their true forms would still embody their aspects as multiversal constants. Not only that, they'd still have the destruction, control, and sustenance feats, protecting their Tier 2 placement. Creation is predominantly their reason, but they'd still have the feats to back up their ratings.
  • Dialga rewrote the entire universe in the Manga.
  • Giratina actively sustains the Distortion World with its existence.
  • They scale off Darkrai, who was going to merge two universes together in PokéPark 2.
  • Arceus has a movie statement of being able to destroy all of existence.
  • Each of them sustains their respective idea as a multiversal constant by just existing.
  • Palkia and Dialga's clash in the manga is about them creating a singularity to destroy the universe.
  • Giratina was going to accidentally destroy two universes in Platinum.
I think their tiering would be fine as is.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
  • DMC and God of War have quite a few creation feats with little to no destruction, I wouldn't mind those verses being downgraded to Tier 6 tbh. Though, DMC also merged 2 3-A sized pocket dimensions and effected some universal space-time.
Click to expand...
Uh, DDM...

They aren't just universe-sized pocket dimensions, they literally are universes. Says so in the source material. Multiple times when Mundus is repeatedly stated to have once fused the Human and Demon universes into one, and how he killed the original king of the Underworld who once separated the two universes after Mundus ate the Qlipoth fruit. Argosax is also repeatedly stated to be literally fusing the human and demon universes into one simply by existing and that time and space were getting warped.
 
@PlozAlcachaz I wasn't arguing against this, I was just answering Dargoo's question, most of those bullet points weren't meant to be serious proposals. He wanted me to list every pocket or crenation based scaling I can think of by the looks of it.

@KLOL506 It's also brought up as a list of examples because it's another feat often question on scaling to physical stats.
 
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DarkDragonMedeus said:
@KLOL506 It's also brought up as a list of examples because it's another feat often question on scaling to physical stats.
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I know, but in any case this was already debated on multiple threads repeatedly and was concluded as actually having been done with their physical might alone.
 
Since it seems to to be fine rn, I’m just going to reply so I can reiterate a point I made before about the AP scaling aspect of the discussion:
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Id say the 2 best ways to prove it scales to AP is if its:

1. Made from your own energy; self explanatory
2. Done in an offensive manner/action (if its done during the phase of an attack, that strongly implies the energy used to create the realm is used in your regular attacks, not to mention the dimension itself being apart of the attack)

There's probably more ways to go about it, but these 2 are at the top of my list as the best/strongest ways to legitimately scale your X AP to Y creation.

Now as for what should be looked at a lot more carefully, would be PR feats that are done through some kind of ability or technique a character has. While not impossible to scale to AP, it absolutely should never be assumed to scale like an ordinary attack would, let alone a casual one. More required evidence should be needed as well as more critical analysis.

And cases where a dimension is created off panel or off screen would need to require the most amount of evidence out of them all for obvious reasons.
Click to expand...

And to ask about the last point more, how would we go about handling PR feats from verses that are light novel based? You know, textualized instead of the feat ever being shown on panel or on screen?
 
Exactly, that was just something Dargoo asked me to do as an "Fun Exercise"; the next list of posts was derailment. Either stay on topic or close the thread and save it for another day. I don't even care if any of those verses get downgraded as far as "Accuracy" is concerned.
 
So can somebody summarise our conclusions so far here?

Also, would somebody be willing to write a standard practices page for said conclusions? @DontTalkDT perhaps?

Medeus is correct about that we cannot start any major revisions right now though. We would not be able to properly carry them out, especially given that we have two genuinely important wiki revision projects coming up: The one to link our verse pages to the related discussion tags, and the one to give our profile pages infoboxes for vastly improved Google search optimisation.
 
Basically, creating dimension large enough to contain a starry sky does qualify as a 4-A Tier feat; however.
  • There should be evidence that there is a well detailed explanation that a pocket dimension was created, and not simply an illusion or teleportation to another location.
  • Some reason to consider the backgrounds stars, not just painted decorations within a throne room or museum.
  • Even if it's a solid Attack Potency feat; it shouldn't be assumed to scale to physical stats without some scaling notable demonstrations and/or examples or information that the same pool of energy can translate to other abilities including but not limited to physical strikes.
 
Okay. Thank you. That makes sense to me. Do you have any requirements that you would like to add to the list @DontTalkDT ?
 
Okay. Are you fine with the list itself?
 
I added it as a notes section, but page wordings or merging it with other sections is fine.
 
Antvasima said:
We would need a plan for how we should apply the new standards though.

Should we create a new page called "Starry Skies and Pocket Reality Creation Feats" (or something similar) and move the current relevant information from the pocket realities powers and abilities page to there, combined with writing new rules for starry skies?
Click to expand...
Okay. Thank you to all staff members who have helped out with evaluations above. It seems like we have reached a conclusion then.

However, what I mentioned in the quoted text still applies, so help and input would be appreciated in this regard.
 
'Fraid I ain't the best dude to ask about this, but I think DDM, Dragonmasterxyz, DT and Andy might be able to help you out, since IMHO they're the ones most knowledgeable regarding the topic.
 
Okay. No problem. Thanks anyway.
 
Antvasima said:
We would need a plan for how we should apply the new standards though.

Should we create a new page called "Starry Skies and Pocket Reality Creation Feats" (or something similar) and move the current relevant information from the pocket realities powers and abilities page to there, combined with writing new rules for starry skies?
Click to expand...
So is somebody willing to help out with this please?
 
I have added the things in the form of notes on the Pocket Reality Manipulation page. But I wasn't sure if an entire page was needed; some explanations were already on the Creation page.

And, I've also been really stressed with my RL Job, so it's been difficult for me to find time for much bigger projects.
 
No problem Medeus. I greatly appreciate all of your help.

Pocket Reality Manipulation is a powers and abilities page rather than a policy/instruction page though, so I think that it is better to move the relevant information to a new page of the second type.
 
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