Really Controversial Sans CRT...

[ShionAH]

On the pacifist route Sans tells you to judge your own actions and you do,but if you have love Sans says that you are bored and judges you himself meaning oncr you gain love you lose the capability to feel the consequences of your action

I can't remember all the dialogues but thanks for telling me this, yes this does indeed help!

 

[AyOgUyS]

What the fck are you talking about?

watch the language pls

 

[ShionAH]

watch the language pls

 

[God_of_perversion]

This is, by definition, minor.
It doesn't effect their combative ability.
It doesn't implicate any degree of actual remorse.
It doesn't really say anything beyond they're cognizant of sins they've once done.

Maybe because Frisk is being controled by a entity which resides outside the universe? And even if they weren't,that would just be a feat for their super natural willpower

 

[God_of_perversion]

If anything I'd be more willing to argue it should be simply "likely", as nothing ever once states the cause of this, links it to Sans himself, and especially not some sort of special never mentioned or conveyed ability. For all we know it could simply be SI, maybe even nothing at all and contextual.

"Gojo wasn't the one that caused the earthquake" ahh arguement

 

[IDK3465]

Know what, I’m changing my vote to neutral, this shit is simply too vague for me to make anything out of it or how it works

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Know what, I’m changing my vote to neutral, this shit is simply too vague for me to make anything out of it or how it works

KARMA (The SOUL poison effect) is legit one sans' main shticks, huh?

 

[ShionAH]

How was that argument good enough to change any opinions?? I am shocked but alr.

 

[IDK3465]

KARMA (The SOUL poison effect) is legit one sans' main shticks, huh?

Idk dude I’m tired

 

[Chariot190]

"Gojo wasn't the one that caused the earthquake" ahh arguement

Ok what actual citations do you have for this beyond vibes?

KARMA (The SOUL poison effect) is legit one sans' main shticks, huh?

And? Is this that? We know what that is, we know how he applies it. Why is him standing there equatable? Prove he has passive karma abilities.

No, what this is, is simply vibes and taking what is legitimately a nothing line for thematic framing and extrapolating it into a actual ability.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

And? Is this that?

Yes? "You felt your sins crawling on your back." and "You felt your sins weighing on your neck." lines are part of the quartet of KARMA-value-triggered lines (0-10 and 10-20 respectively) which makes it pretty apparent that they're related, nay literally the same thing.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Ok what actual citations do you have for this beyond vibes?

Downgrade foreshadowing?

 

[Chariot190]

Yes? "You felt your sins crawling on your back." and "You felt your sins weighing on your neck." lines are part of the quartet of KARMA-value-triggered lines (0-10 and 10-20 respectively) which makes it pretty apparent that they're related, nay literally the same thing.

You very clearly did not understand the question: how does this relate to Sans' ability as opposed to being a in game flag that procs text that may or may not be hyperbolic?

Unless, you're trying to say those lines only proc after he inflicts karma? Now, see, that's a way better argument, that'd be legitimate proof.
Unfortunately, that makes it worse in function, because that means this is a ability that requires him to actually inflict said karmic damage first, which the profile frames as being almost passive, which is misleading and borderline lying.
To further that, that still doesn't come off as anything but minor, or even a nuisance, we need to see it actually doing something of note for it to be anything but minor.

 

[Steve1775]

Tbf is there any lore accurate reason why sans does karma stuff?

 

[Chariot190]

Tbf is there any lore accurate reason why sans does karma stuff?

Not really, people just guessing the mechanics of it. Which makes shit even harder to judge because it's legitimately mostly vibes on what is real, what is hyperbole, and the mechanisms that define what each aspect is actually doing.

 

[Steve1775]

Not really, people just guessing the mechanics of it. Which makes shit even harder to judge because it's legitimately mostly vibes on what is real, what is hyperbole, and the mechanisms that define what each aspect is actually doing.

I wouldn't really have had any issue with it if it weren't for the fact it seems so out of place when you consider everything else they do

 

[ShionAH]

no one is saying it’s passive

 

[Chariot190]

no one is saying it’s passive

• Minor Empathic Manipulation (When against Sans, the opponents will likely feel guilt as if their sins were crawling on their backs)

Except the profile and eden. It doesn't, at any point, say he needs to hit them a billion times with his karma powers, which it should, kind of a HUGE caveat just not mentioned at all, but it legit just says "when against", that by very wording alone dictates that qualifying factor is simply "facing him".

 

[SnakesCity]

Except the profile and eden. It doesn't, at any point, say he needs to hit them a billion times with his karma powers, which it should, kind of a HUGE caveat just not mentioned at all, but it legit just says "when against", that by very wording alone dictates that qualifying factor is simply "facing him".

But do you agree with the most important part of this CRT, the fragrance manip?

 

[ShionAH]

• Minor Empathic Manipulation (When against Sans, the opponents will likely feel guilt as if their sins were crawling on their backs)

Except the profile and eden. It doesn't, at any point, say he needs to hit them a billion times with his karma powers, which it should, kind of a HUGE caveat just not mentioned at all, but it legit just says "when against", that by very wording alone dictates that qualifying factor is simply "facing him".

Thats my bad on the wording as I wrote that BEFORE I learnt it stacks with Karma and never changed it.

Besides do you or do you not agree that this empathetic manipulation works when they are damaged by Karma then? Idk what the **** else I need to prove it exists when we have so mah explanations and effects written on screen AND a canon reason WHY they dont make Frisk give up

 

[Chariot190]

Thats my bad on the wording as I wrote that BEFORE I learnt it stacks with Karma and never changed it.

Besides do you or do you not agree that this empathetic manipulation works when they are damaged by Karma then? Idk what the **** else I need to prove it exists when we have so mah explanations and effects written on screen AND a canon reason WHY they dont make Frisk give up

Dude, your CRT is trying to prove it isn't minor, not that it exists at all.
As it stands I see zero reason to change anything beyond making it even MORE restrictive because currently, the profile per your own admission is badly worded and implies it's basically passive, when actually he needs to hit you a bunch to even get it going.

There's a leap in logic for what it actually entails (no dude, it isn't literal weight, that's basic phrasing for this type of stuff), and I would say "death by karma" also isn't useful given it, well, they don't die from that?
Unless you want to argue Sans' stuff isn't actually some abstract soul poison and is more "they feel bad to the point of dying sadge...", in which case remove the other stuff, because you're only getting one. It can't be both.

Also do note; explanations that are headcanon conjecture, are ultimately still headcanon conjecture; a fan's explanation due to the lack of a canon one is still fanon in the end and needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[ShionAH]

HUH?

Yes and thats why I am trying to fix it, it should not be minor AND should be effective only when tagged.

Where do you get that it isn’t literal?? Frisk says they feel it weighing on their neck, then that it courses through their veins. Your assumption that it’s completely fake is not any more valid than my direct scaling that it is happening because of the large amount of dialogue supporting it.

Wrong again. It says “DOOMED to Death By KARMA”. Which fits PERFECTLY with KR poisoning and taking our HP down during a period of time after a hit. Why did you cut the word that completely debunks your point?

 

[Chariot190]

HUH?

Yes and thats why I am trying to fix it, it should not be minor AND should be effective only when tagged.

Except it should be minor? Kind of the argument.

Your reasoning for anything past that is contradictory, self-defeating, or simply not explicit enough to warrant anything.

Where do you get that it isn’t literal?? Frisk says they feel it weighing on their neck, then that it courses through their veins. Your assumption that it’s completely fake is not any more valid than my direct scaling that it is happening because of the large amount of dialogue supporting it.

Because I know basic linguistics? Have you REALLY never heard of terms like "the weight of your sins", "sins weighing on your conscious/back", and more? Hell adjacent to such phrases as "weight of the world" and many more, this isn't exactly niche?

I was legitimately joking, I did not think you were actually being literal. I'm not quite sure how to take the fact you weren't joking tbh. Sorry dude but it is a common phrasing.
I straight up disagree with you unless you can actually give solid proof there's functional weight to this instead of the most common legit flowery language used in common everyday conversations.

I very much doubt you can though, based on the fact the game shows and indicates zero showings of weight, which is a bit odd because the game already has modes that indicate extra mass, slow down, and more onto Frisk/Chara. If it was truly literal in the sense you're arguing why wouldn't they actually implement that? It can't be difficulty either, dude's the super secret drop dead boss.

Also this isn't how this works? The burden of proof is on you to prove it's real, not for people to prove it isn't. I don't need to prove the basic flowery hyperbole I've ong seen hundreds of times before verbatim is exactly that when it's you trying to prove it's actually secretly creating literal weight on the person in question instead of being metaphorical. You say it's an assumption, but is that not exactly what you're doing?
Assuming it has to be some sort of special hyper literal thing without any indication it's doing something to begin with?

Wrong again. It says “DOOMED to Death By KARMA”. Which fits PERFECTLY with KR poisoning and taking our HP down during a period of time after a hit. Why did you cut the word that completely debunks your point?

I didn't cut the word out, I just figured people had basic recall and common deductive reasoning to realize that's quite literally what I was calling out.

Do recall how 5 seconds ago I very clearly said
Unless you want to argue Sans' stuff isn't actually some abstract soul poison and is more "they feel bad to the point of dying sadge...", in which case remove the other stuff, because you're only getting one. It can't be both.
That is to say, if you're trying to say that IS THE SOUL POISON (based on what is accepted), then by default it is NOT EMPATH manip it is THE SOUL POISON. And if you're trying to say it's empath manip anyway, and that's what causes them to die, which you legitimately just argued, then remove the soul poison because you quite literally just said Sans' attacks are actually biological (they enter one's veins, karma physically circulates, this is a physical biological thing), and that this physical biological substance is what "dooms them to die" because that's what "karma" is? Are you not actually looking at the scans you're sending and thinking through the implications of wat you arguments would entail? You're doing a bunch of self sabotaging here.

Honestly, I think the real bigger issue here is that you're trying to have your cake and eat it too without realizing that by arguing one thing, you're in turn arguing against a completely other interpretation that can't actually co-exist because the mechanism for the cause would be different under that logistics. So be my guest, but you can't have everything.

So what do you want? Flatout empath because "it dooms them to die"? Well if it's empath hax, remove the other interpretation of how it causes them to die because you don't get to have both.
Otherwise all you have is basic flowery language that basically says "wow I am aware that I've done wrong", and it not actually impeding them whatsoever with the stronger effects being tied to some sort of karmic poison coursing through one's body (which also makes the soul aspect iffy if we're just taking these lines at face value), and then doomed to die because of that.

 

[God_of_perversion]

Except it should be minor? Kind of the argument.

Your reasoning for anything past that is contradictory, self-defeating, or simply not explicit enough to warrant anything.

Because I know basic linguistics? Have you REALLY never heard of terms like "the weight of your sins", "sins weighing on your conscious/back", and more? Hell adjacent to such phrases as "weight of the world" and many more, this isn't exactly niche?

I was legitimately joking, I did not think you were actually being literal. I'm not quite sure how to take the fact you weren't joking tbh. Sorry dude but it is a common phrasing.
I straight up disagree with you unless you can actually give solid proof there's functional weight to this instead of the most common legit flowery language used in common everyday conversations.

I very much doubt you can though, based on the fact the game shows and indicates zero showings of weight, which is a bit odd because the game already has modes that indicate extra mass, slow down, and more onto Frisk/Chara. If it was truly literal in the sense you're arguing why wouldn't they actually implement that? It can't be difficulty either, dude's the super secret drop dead boss.

Also this isn't how this works? The burden of proof is on you to prove it's real, not for people to prove it isn't. I don't need to prove the basic flowery hyperbole I've ong seen hundreds of times before verbatim is exactly that when it's you trying to prove it's actually secretly creating literal weight on the person in question instead of being metaphorical. You say it's an assumption, but is that not exactly what you're doing?
Assuming it has to be some sort of special hyper literal thing without any indication it's doing something to begin with?

I didn't cut the word out, I just figured people had basic recall and common deductive reasoning to realize that's quite literally what I was calling out.

Do recall how 5 seconds ago I very clearly said
Unless you want to argue Sans' stuff isn't actually some abstract soul poison and is more "they feel bad to the point of dying sadge...", in which case remove the other stuff, because you're only getting one. It can't be both.
That is to say, if you're trying to say that IS THE SOUL POISON (based on what is accepted), then by default it is NOT EMPATH manip it is THE SOUL POISON. And if you're trying to say it's empath manip anyway, and that's what causes them to die, which you legitimately just argued, then remove the soul poison because you quite literally just said Sans' attacks are actually biological (they enter one's veins, karma physically circulates, this is a physical biological thing), and that this physical biological substance is what "dooms them to die" because that's what "karma" is? Are you not actually looking at the scans you're sending and thinking through the implications of wat you arguments would entail? You're doing a bunch of self sabotaging here.

Honestly, I think the real bigger issue here is that you're trying to have your cake and eat it too without realizing that by arguing one thing, you're in turn arguing against a completely other interpretation that can't actually co-exist because the mechanism for the cause would be different under that logistics. So be my guest, but you can't have everything.

So what do you want? Flatout empath because "it dooms them to die"? Well if it's empath hax, remove the other interpretation of how it causes them to die because you don't get to have both.
Otherwise all you have is basic flowery language that basically says "wow I am aware that I've done wrong", and it not actually impeding them whatsoever with the stronger effects being tied to some sort of karmic poison coursing through one's body (which also makes the soul aspect iffy if we're just taking these lines at face value), and then doomed to die because of that.

Biggest Larper of today and history

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

You very clearly did not understand the question: how does this relate to Sans' ability as opposed to being a in game flag that procs text that may or may not be hyperbolic?

Unless, you're trying to say those lines only proc after he inflicts karma? Now, see, that's a way better argument, that'd be legitimate proof.
Unfortunately, that makes it worse in function, because that means this is a ability that requires him to actually inflict said karmic damage first, which the profile frames as being almost passive, which is misleading and borderline lying.

"Unless, you're trying to say those lines only proc after he inflicts karma?" <--- This, kinda.

You also seem to have missed where I mentioned that the flavor text “You felt your sins crawling on your back.” appears when you have 0–10 KR, meaning he doesn’t even need to hit you for the guilt effect to set in, landing hits just intensifies it (It escalates into "You felt your sins weighing on your neck." when you have 10-20 KR).
Plus the whole "metaphorical" angle you're going for breaks when those sensations are explicitly caused by the supernatural SOUL-poisoning KARMA lol

To further that, that still doesn't come off as anything but minor, or even a nuisance, we need to see it actually doing something of note for it to be anything but minor.

It made Frisk feel guilty, and that guilt is what poisoned them?
Like honestly I’m not sure what you think Empathic Manip is supposed to do in the first place, it makes you FEEL something. That’s literally it.
It shouldn’t be labeled as “Minor” for the same reason Underwater Breathing isn’t shouldn't cause it doesn’t help you survive in space

Worse here, because it actually has a physical effect with the poison. “Poison Manip is a separate power” doesn’t change anything here, if Empathic Manip does anything beyond inducing emotion, then by definition it’s already overlapping with another ability anyway.

OMORI is actually a pretty solid example of this. Emotions (Happy, Angry, Sad) are a major gameplay mechanic and essentially act as buffs (Angry makes you hit harder but weakens your defense, Sad makes you hit weaker but makes you tankier and Happy makes you faster but lowers your accuracy).
The whole party in OMORI is able to inflict these emotions onto their opponents. Would you say it's minor cause the side effect of the emotions is just Statistic Amplification?

 

[Armorchompy]

I think this is nothing. Taking the vaguest possible stuff and trying at all costs to turn it into an ability is exactly the type of thing we should try to avoid when it comes to powerscaling, especially verses that don't exactly clarify their abilities like Undertale. Turning a quick few lines of flavor text and getting hax out of them is unjustified. Even if it is an ability we don't really have any clue how it works.

I was asked to give my thoughts on this - my thoughts are "don't put this on the profiles".

 

[ShionAH]

"don't put this on the profiles".

Can I remove it from the profiles or do I need one more staff? I'd rather it not be there rather than be useless piece of junk.

I do wanna mention we DO know how it works. Its from KR. And if that changes your mind can I add these statements to the KRs Status Effect Inducement?

 

[Armorchompy]

If no other staff has voted in favor of that option you need another.

 

[ShionAH]

I do wanna mention we DO know how it works. Its from KR. And if that changes your mind can I add these statements to the KRs Status Effect Inducement?

Edited this later. If you missed it.

You right about the voting thing

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Even if it is an ability we don't really have any clue how it works.

It's literally just, the more KARMA you have, the more the guilt/sins flavor text intensifies?
The power itself is called "KARMA," how is this vague lol

 

[Armorchompy]

I am not interested in debate - I was asked to weigh in and I did. But if you think "they say karma a bunch and it relates to guilt" is strong evidence then I think we would just very strongly disagree on that no matter what.

 

[ShionAH]

Yeah to be fair they already made it clear don't wanna debate thi, which is fine!!

I don't think the hax changes anything anyways it would have been cool since Sans is the judge

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Will say that this is a strawman tho

But if you think "they say karma a bunch and it relates to guilt" is strong evidence then I think we would just very strongly disagree on that no matter what.

The evidence is that a character who, in absolutely no universe, would have felt guilt normally, just by virtue of being LV19, aka a literal quantification of how distant and disconnected they are from others (And we’ve seen them go from feeling bad for punching a Dummy at LV1 to feeling good about it at LV9), was made to feel those emotions.
And the BIG PART is that it’s DIRECTLY, EXPLICITLY, UNEQUIVOCALLY caused by the SOUL poison named "KARMA" which only shows up in the fight against sans.

 

[God_of_perversion]

Will say that this is a strawman tho

The evidence is that a character who, in absolutely no universe, would have felt guilt normally, just by virtue of being LV19, aka a literal quantification of how distant and disconnected they are from others (And we’ve seen them go from feeling bad for punching a Dummy at LV1 to feeling good about it at LV9), was made to feel those emotions.
And the BIG PART is that it’s DIRECTLY, EXPLICITLY, UNEQUIVOCALLY caused by the SOUL poison named "KARMA" which only shows up in the fight against sans.

And again Sans literally says that you're unable to judge your actions because you have lv

 

[God_of_perversion]

Any way since it seens no one here understands the arguement i'll explain it all again
Just being in Sans presence (even if yiu have zero karma) is enought for you to "feel your sins crawling on your back" as the game describes it and that feeling increases the more Karma you have until it reaches "you feel karma coursing trought your veins".
Bur here is the thing,time and time again undertale has show us that gaining Lv removes our capability to feel remorse and guilty to the point you can't even judge our actions just by being Lv2 out of 20.For example every time you reach the lasr corridor, Sans will tell you to judge yourself,if you have Lv1 you can judge yourself but even at just Lv2 Sans downright says we are bored and judges us ourselves ( as show here)
Debunking the debunks:
"But it doesn't affect us":empathic manipulation is the ability to manipulate emotions.Sans presence can make a being that is unable to feel guilt and self reflection feel guilt about their actions."but it doesn't affect us in battle":Frisk is quite literally controled by a entity that exists outside the cosmology (which is L1c btw) so he obviously lacks the range to affect the player and thus thats not a debunk and not only that but Karma quite literally works as a soul and body poison.

 

[Chariot190]

"Unless, you're trying to say those lines only proc after he inflicts karma?" <--- This, kinda.

Kinda? It either is or isn't.

ou also seem to have missed where I mentioned that the flavor text “You felt your sins crawling on your back.” appears when you have 0–10 KR, meaning he doesn’t even need to hit you for the guilt effect to set in, landing hits just intensifies it (It escalates into "You felt your sins weighing on your neck." when you have 10-20 KR).
Plus the whole "metaphorical" angle you're going for breaks when those sensations are explicitly caused by the supernatural SOUL-poisoning KARMA lol

I didn't miss it, it's why I'm saying that line means nothing.

And no, you just contradicted yourself. If the first line happens with 0 KR, then we know that line doesn't happen due to the, "supernatural SOUL-poisoning KARMA" because you just admitted it happens before he even uses it or inflicts it.

You just sabotaged your own point. I'm not here to argue oxymorons with you. And you wanna know how I know this shit isn't even remotely concrete? Because the 3 of you can't even seem to agree on how it works either.

If anything, why are we assuming KR 0-10 is Sans', instead of simply being the default, given it's the default before he inflicts anything and KR10+ is when it starts to actually do "something"?

It made Frisk feel guilty, and that guilt is what poisoned them?
Like honestly I’m not sure what you think Empathic Manip is supposed to do in the first place, it makes you FEEL something. That’s literally it.

It should do something, hell it should effect their emotions thinking on it too.
This doesn't even do that, you're conflating being aware of something to being altered or manipulated emotionally.

The "feel" here is a metaphorical acknowledgment of sins, it does not say it made them actually regret it, feel guilty, or anything whatsoever.
This is by definition extreme extrapolation and rewriting.

It shouldn’t be labeled as “Minor” for the same reason Underwater Breathing isn’t shouldn't cause it doesn’t help you survive in space

Different abilities. False equivalence. Debate properly or not at all please.

It should be labeled as minor because the effects of the ability are extremely minor with no tangible effects or benefits. Technically speaking it isn't even Empath hax because it doesn't actually effect their emotive state it just makes them aware of something.

Worse here, because it actually has a physical effect with the poison. “Poison Manip is a separate power” doesn’t change anything here, if Empathic Manip does anything beyond inducing emotion, then by definition it’s already overlapping with another ability anyway.

Actually, once again that's another case of "we have no idea what this is so we're just assuming".

It isn't even remotely confirmed to be "poison", that was just what it resembles due to the ticking down so that's what we went with; if you're arguing it's empath based and the more delivered the greater that empath is, so much so it "dooms one to death", that's no longer leaving the poison option on the table, the evidence points towards a completely different mechanism meaning we no longer have any reason to just guess poison.

OMORI is actually a pretty solid example of this. Emotions (Happy, Angry, Sad) are a major gameplay mechanic and essentially act as buffs (Angry makes you hit harder but weakens your defense, Sad makes you hit weaker but makes you tankier and Happy makes you faster but lowers your accuracy).
The whole party in OMORI is able to inflict these emotions onto their opponents. Would you say it's minor cause the side effect of the emotions is just Statistic Amplification?

I legitimately do not care, do not argue whataboutisms. Argue Undertale, not this other verses with far more context, proof, and scans clarifying things.

 

[God_of_perversion]

should be labeled as minor because the effects of the ability are extremely minor with no tangible effects or benefits. Technically speaking it isn't even Empath hax because it doesn't actually effect their emotive state it just makes them aware of something.

For how long are you going to keep ignoring the elephant shaped L1c god that exists outside the L1c cosmology that controls every action Frisk does,pike this argument really is "Sans empathy hax doesn't have beyond L1c range so it must mean he doesn't have empathy" like stop larping and actually do research on the verse you're talking about bro

 

[Chariot190]

For how long are you going to keep ignoring the elephant shaped L1c god that exists outside the L1c cosmology that controls every action Frisk does,pike this argument really is "Sans empathy hax doesn't have beyond L1c range so it must mean he doesn't have empathy" like stop larping and actually do research on the verse you're talking about bro

Forever until you can actually prove something without prefacing it with "I think", "maybe", "perhaps", "could be", "possibly", and every other prefix that tells me ya'll just guessing and assuming.

 

[God_of_perversion]

Forever until you can actually prove something without prefacing it with "I think", "maybe", "perhaps", "could be", "possibly", and every other prefix that tells me ya'll just guessing and assuming.

can you tell me where i used those words? Also Frisk being controled by a god that exists outside the cosmology has been acepted since the begining

 

[Chariot190]

can you tell me where i used those words? Also Frisk being controled by a god that exists outside the cosmology has been acepted since the begining

In general; you on the other hand are even worse. You're asserting without evidence, which is legit just straight up not worth debating over.

All the same, me and you both know that isn't how we treat it here. Frisk and Chara are very much still cognizant, still take actions, and aren't at all effected in a way that would invoke it being anything but a generous minor unless you want to toss out some abilities.

Goes the other way too, if your excuse is legitimately "they were secretly effected, the player just puppeted them anyway because they couldn't act through it", which is the only way this would even be a relevant point to bring up, you need to prove that's what actually happened as the burden is you on claiming it secretly DID do something, it was just overwrote but we don't actually know what that "thing" is to begin with.
Would also mean we need to strip a slew of stuff off Frisk if we want to attribute things to The Player by default always but alas.