Real Lightning AP Problems

[Dargoo_Faust]

I find it odd that, for speed calcs, we only use what is the average for lightning voltage as the minimum that applies as an umbrella for all higher tiers, whereas electricity dodging feats for lower tiers can't exactly be calced, even though I've been told that natural lightning can be as low as 9-A in terms of sheer voltage/joules. I had a debate with Weekly regarding this and it just boiled down to "make a revision thread" at the end, so I suppose this is that.

Also, I've found some studies that claim that lightning can be 10 times less than what we currently use for the minimum Voltage of real lightning.

This study even concludes that Lightning can be in Wall level+, which just convinces me more that there needs to be some discussion on the lower limit of lightning AP.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Bump.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Bump.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Do you have a proposal for what it should be? Keep in mind, this affects a literal ton of verses.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'm pointing out an issue, I'm aware that several calc members have looked over this problem before as I've been greenlit to use MHS lightning from 9-A before, so I'm (hopefully) waiting for a responce from them.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Okay. If you have an alternative to present, I'm not against the idea, but we'd need something to default to.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Is it just a mixup of bolts and volts? Could you define the problem a bit more clearly?

 

[Jobbo]

The upper limit is being used as the lower bound.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Should we call staff? Seems easy enough to fix.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Actually let me fix some issues with the OP, because I apparently didn't read properly

So, I actually misread something regarding our lower limit for lightning AP, whoopsies on that.

My main issue is actually with the fact that I've been told that lightning occuring naturally can be as low as 9-A, yet our guidelines don't reflect that.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

That's true (or, at least a value in the near upper limits). But we'd need a measure of joules to fall back to. And that'd have to be legitimate.

9-A makes sense, just need to see it.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The upper limit is being used as the lower bound.

I made an error when I read the sources, and apologize for taking up time regarding that.

There still stands an issue with lightning existing at 9-A, and I'd still like to open up discussion on it.

 

[Jobbo]

I see.

 

[RegisNex1232]

I guess tanking lightning strikes should be taken on a case by case basis, and use the lowest end if it's consistent with other feats and there's nothing else to calc.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Just add in that with some rewording.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

https://hypertextbook.com/facts/1998/MathieuLo.shtml

Just by paroosing through some sources a number of studies already come up with numbers as low as 10 MV, which is around 10x less than what we currently use.

The article itself states "10 to 120 million volts"

 

[Wokistan]

Even then, it's inconsistent. People irl survive lightning pretty often, as a lot of the energy can go straight into the ground. Assuming characters tanking lightning bolts for whatever reason absorb all the energy present seems wrong.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Even then, it's inconsistent. People irl survive lightning pretty often, as a lot of the energy can go straight into the ground. Assuming characters tanking lightning bolts for whatever reason absorb all the energy present seems wrong.

Yeah that is true. Since lightning strikes tend to go over/on your skin as it is the path of least resistance, hence the severe burns.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I mean, speed is important here too.

If lightning can exist at 10 times less the voltage than what we require here, using cloud to ground feats becomes a bit of an issue.

For example, Black Lightning's Tier shouldn't be 8-C but variable if the AP of real lightning is used for him.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Wokistan Most survive, but most don't "tank" it, as in, suffer no long-term affects. A quick Google search says 10% die outright, and 70% more suffer from said long-term effects. 20% seems like a percentage where it may be some weird scenario. So I think fictional characters flat-out tanking lightning and remaining unharmed (especially if it is aimed directly at them, as in, manipulated by another character) then 9-A is solid enough.

@Dargoo Alright. I'm not an expert in this area, but that sounds alright to me. Some calc group folks should check it out, though.

 

[Wokistan]

Funny enough I came pretty close to being struck by ligblight the other day, was like 10 feet or so away from me

Is there a method to calc ligbtning off the visuals, like you can do for explosions?

 

[RegisNex1232]

Not really? Lightning varies a lot in appearance and having more/less bolts isn't a great indicator of speed and AP.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

This would be a huge revision for numerous verses, we're talking hundreds probably. Honestly, a highlight should be requested.

 

[Wokistan]

At some point yes. Tonight is probably a bad time though, what with everything going on. Maybe wait a few hours.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Maybe wait until the other two huge revions that are about to happen finish

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

IIRC, this discussion was already made and rejected a long time ago.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Maybe wait until the other two huge revions that are about to happen finish

I mean, I'd like some dicussion on it at least. The actual revising can wait if this is accepted.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Dark Yes, it was

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Can I get a link?

If it's been a long time, perhaps there is new light to be shed on the debate.

 

[Wokistan]

What other revisions are going on right now as is? Pokemon is done, bleach hasn't started, and I can't think of anytbian else going on right now.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

What other revisions are going on right now as is? Pokemon is done, bleach hasn't started, and I can't think of anytbian else going on right now.

The huge revision of the entirety of tier 4 as well as High 5-A

 

[Wokistan]

New boundaries are already agreed upon, all that has to be done for that is update where the calcs put them. Hell, it is done for some verses. I don't see why this can't run concurrencly.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Let's not derail this with other threads.

For one, I haven't gotten a meaningful response to what I've proposed other than "X thread already did this" or "There are other revisions", which I feel is a bit distasteful. I'm fine with even a link to the aforementioned thread so I can get some research done.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Wait, someone linked me this as the thread you guys were mentioning? Can someone correct me if this isn't true?

I'm just arguing on what we use for voltage, I am not recommending using temperature for AP but the electrical energy of the bolt, like we currently do.

 

[Antoniofer]

Not much time ago, I helped someone to calculate a lightning tanking feat; according the sourced that he found, the voltage when impacting someone is less than 10 M volts, it also used another time of contact with the lightning. Iirc, the result was around Street level.

Seems consistent considering that normal person can survive lightnings, the time that someone die is not by burnings or the impact, is for respiratory or cardiac arrest.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

No person IRL actually gets hit by the full lightning bolt whenever they're struck by lightning; Lightning Bolts have a rather massive AoE and people only get hit by part of it. Additionally, the ground actually absorbs most of the heat and impact. The only way for a person to actually take the whole 5 Gigajoules thing is for them to be hundreds of meters tall and/or wide. Or if the character why airborne/flying and was made entirely of elements that attract electricity such as metal.

However, it was agreed that the energy required to summon a lightning Bolt from a cloud was at least 5 Gigajoules. Some characters are also able to manipulate lightning in a way in the actual attack is legit Building level+.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So basically it just needs to be known that surviving the lightning bolt is not an 8-C feat, whereas summoning a lightning bolt IS an 8-C feat.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

2 or more characters trading blows by summoning lightning bolts back and forth or even a magic spell that requires summoning a real lightning bolt being treated as comparable to other Fire and/or Wind spells is also possible justification to scale Durability to AP.

 

[RegisNex1232]

This of course would mean that tanking lightning strikes may not be a durability feat unless certain conditions are met.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yeah, I know. But on a very basic level, if a character harnesses the power of a lightning bolt, then that would be 8-C.

It's like making an explosion versus surviving one. If you make one, that's just your AP and stuff. But if you tank one, depending on how far away you were it might be a helluva lot less.