[Re:Zero] Speed is Messy 2 – Electric Boogaloo

[Zabazab]

Sequel to this thread. This time, we will hopefully be applying an update.

The Scaling (it's basically unchanged, just all connected now)

Sub-Relativistic Characters

Roswaal J Mathers in Ex Novel 2 performs this Sub-Relativistic feat. Of course, everyone that currently scales to her still does so, including Sphinx. After the events of Ex2, Sphinx learns the Flow Method (although limited by her mana body) which makes her physical abilities far better, specifically because Roswaal J. beat her in the past. Sphinx then fights characters such as Emilia (Who herself can react to light. Yay consistency!), thereby joining up the speed scaling of the Ex2 cast and the main cast. Other than that, scaling is the same.

Most of these guys also get superhuman travel speed, scaling to ground dragons (100km/h). The characters that fly, like Roswaal, have supersonic flight scaling to flying dragons.

Spoiler: Characters That Scale

• Emilia
• Beatrice
• Rem
• Ram
• Otto (reactions only)
• Subaru (reactions only)
• Gaston (reactions only)
• Rachins (reactions only)
• Camberley (reactions only)
• Rom (reactions only)
• Giant Valga
• Frederica
• Roswaal L.
• Garfiel (Arc 4-6)
• Old Wilhelm
• Theresia (Corpse Soldier)
• Kurgan (Corpse Soldier)
• Crusch
• Priscilla
• Al (combat speed only)
• Julius
• Ricardo
• Felt
• Petelgeuse
• Alphard
• Sirius
• Capella
• Echidna
• Minerva
• Hektor
• Sphinx
• Great Rabbit
• Marcos
• Grimm
• Puck
• Melakuera
• Moguro
• Groovy
• Balleroy
• Elsa
• Carol
• Roswaal J. (obviously)

Sub-Relativistic+ Characters

Characters who are just way faster than the sub-rel characters and thus warrant scaling to baseline Sub-Relativistic+ (The gap is only ~1.2x). It includes characters like Young Wilhelm and Olbart, who are shown to be significantly faster than those below them.

These guys also get baseline MHS+ travel speed, as Olbart is outpaced by but can still follow Cecilus, who is in the next tier.

Spoiler: Characters That Scale

• Young Wilhelm
• Libre Fermi
• Shaula
• 2nd Shackle Ram (Though, this is from the >2x amp from base)
• Batenkaitos (Though, this is from scaling to 2nd Shackle Ram)
• Daphne (Scaling from Batenkaitos)
• Typhon (Scaling above Daphne, but not travel speed)

FTL Characters

A small number of characters, it's just Cecilus and those who scale to him. This is based on him weaving through a very high number of light-speed attacks, and those on his level treating dodging light as fairly easy. (Yes, the light attacks are light speed.)

These guys also get MHS+ travel speed scaling to Cecilus who is repeatedly stated to be as fast as or faster than lightning.

Spoiler: Characters That Scale

• Cecilus (obviously)
• Halibel
• Peak Wilhelm
• Theresia
• Kurgan (Although he shouldn't, changing this quirk in the scaling is for a different thread)
• Valgren (Although it shouldn't, changing this quirk in the scaling is for a different thread)

Also tangentially related: Reinhard should get the same "higher reactions, far higher perception" that Cecilus and Reid have.

That's basically it. There are a LOT of characters and a LOT of interactions between these characters, I can't be 100% sure on every character's scaling, so please comment your thoughts and/or questions.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

This is crazy
I agree obviously

 

[Gigi_4_life]

Mostly seems fine

I disagree with some of the witches having superhuman travel speed, as they're more or less just normal girls without their authorities, especially Echidna, who's repeatedly stated to not be physically fit (cant even do one push-up gg)

As for the sub-relativistic+ characters, why does Libre scale? From what I remember he had a good fight with Wilhelm around halfway through ex 2, but that was before he trained to surpass his limits and fight Theresia (and later Kurgan) so he shouldn't scale to young Wilhelm at all
I understand the reasoning for Lye, but it's weird that he'd be "significantly faster" than people that were directly able to react to him (Emilia)

For the relativistic+ characters... "it's just Cecilus and those who scale to him" ... you hate me don't you Zab? I won't say anything because I don't wanna start another Cecilus fiesta, but it actually does seem that Tappei plans on making the strongest of each country comparable to Reinhard at least in some way.

Other than the things I mentioned above, this all seems fine

 

[Zabazab]

I disagree with some of the witches having superhuman travel speed, as they're more or less just normal girls without their authorities, especially Echidna, who's repeatedly stated to not be physically fit (cant even do one push-up gg)

I can clarify that part then:
Echidna gets no superhuman travel speed, just supersonic flight speed; Daphne is physically superhuman (also I forgot she scales to Batenkaitos, I've now switched her); Typhon is above Daphne, but I can also see her not having superhuman travel speed too; Minerva is explicitly very superhuman so she gets that travel speed.

As for the sub-relativistic+ characters, why does Libre scale?

It was essentially because he's currently supersonic+ (above the supersonics) for the same reason. I think after Wilhelm's fight with Valga and 2 years of training he'd be faster than Libre of course, but Libre still was running circles around Wilhelm, who then caught up, and then Libre got faster to match the Wilhelm who was also getting faster.

I understand the reasoning for Lye, but it's weird that he'd be "significantly faster" than people that were directly able to react to him (Emilia)

Lye HoldsBack-enkaitos. Held back so hard he got folded by a gaggle of non-combatants.

you hate me don't you Zab?

Cecilus deserves Ceciless See ya in your "Cecilus is Reinhard-level" thread after all the Arc 8 updates are done.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

I can clarify that part then:
Echidna gets no superhuman travel speed, just supersonic flight speed; Daphne is physically superhuman (also I forgot she scales to Batenkaitos, I've now switched her); Typhon is above Daphne, but I can also see her not having superhuman travel speed too; Minerva is explicitly very superhuman so she gets that travel speed.

I agree

It was essentially because he's currently supersonic+ (above the supersonics) for the same reason. I think after Wilhelm's fight with Valga and 2 years of training he'd be faster than Libre of course, but Libre still was running circles around Wilhelm, who then caught up, and then Libre got faster to match the Wilhelm who was also getting faster.

Shouldn't that just be AD? But fair enough

Lye HoldsBack-enkaitos. Held back so hard he got folded by a gaggle of non-combatants.

Fair lol, Lye is probably the biggest jobber in the verse, he was fighting the same 2 shackles Ram that was stated by Tappei to be able to KO base arc 4 Garf in one hit

Cecilus deserves Ceciless See ya in your "Cecilus is Reinhard-level" thread after all the Arc 8 updates are done.

 

[Zabazab]

Shouldn't that just be AD? But fair enough

He got way faster through AD yes, but he didn't lose that speed. He's taken at his peak.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Relativistic+ is a little arbitrary, dodging a literal mist of light, coming from "countless cracks", from all directions with no blindspots, is imo FTL at that point.

I think Ceci and co should be FTL. With visuals wouldn't be surprised if this feat goes way higher.

Agree with the rest of course.

 

[Zabazab]

I can update that then. I suppose it's consistent with Tappei seeing Cecilus as The Fastest...

 

[Gigi_4_life]

I can update that then. I suppose it's consistent with Tappei seeing Cecilus as The Fastest...

 

[Grand_Astartes]

Easy agree

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Well can we get a "possibly FTL+" for dodging the light feat...

 

[Zabazab]

No

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

No

Come on we can get a possibly for completely blitzing light point blank

 

[SeijiSetto]

Ceci being FTL in base would have god tiers like Reinhard upscale even higher (probably nothing more than adding to his justification) because collar-nerfed Reinhard in Ex4 was able to outspeed and oneshot a mid-swing Ceci.

 

[Zabazab]

Ceci being FTL in base would have god tiers like Reinhard upscale even higher (probably nothing more than adding to his justification) because collar-nerfed Reinhard in Ex4 was able to outspeed and oneshot a mid-swing Ceci.

No but see Ceci is actually faster (Tappei said so)

That single exchange was enough to convey Reinhard’s unparalleled strength. Eyes shining, Cecilus disappeared again. He went as fast as his namesake, then even faster. Multiple images of the man in the blue kimono began to appear until it seemed as though Reinhard was against an army of a hundred. It was beyond anything Julius’ defensive reflexes might have been able to respond to. This surely must have been Cecilus’ last resort.

But if Cecilus at his greatest seemed superhuman, then so did Reinhard. The Sword Saint didn’t give an inch of ground, parrying the encroaching attacks with nothing but the hiltless blade of his opponent’s own broken weapon. Reinhard deflected, swept away, and guarded against every strike. With only half a sword, one he had to hold with the tips of his fingers to not cut himself, Reinhard was defending against what was essentially an enchanted sword. Such power was truly something from the realm of nightmares. And if that was how Julius saw it, then how much more did the enemy, the Divine General, think of it?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Ceci being FTL in base would have god tiers like Reinhard upscale even higher (probably nothing more than adding to his justification) because collar-nerfed Reinhard in Ex4 was able to outspeed and oneshot a mid-swing Ceci.

He apparently did better when they had a rematch like a month later? So ehhh.

That rematch apparently according to Ceci was a draw...

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

He apparently did better when they had a rematch like a month later? So ehhh.

That rematch apparently according to Ceci was a draw...

I believe in cecilus (Reinhard was holding back harder than Ley HoldsBack-enkaitos)

 

[SeijiSetto]

That rematch apparently according to Ceci was a draw...

i'll be so fr
thundertwink had to have been lying out of his ass
i don't believe him for a second considering he got literally offscreened

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I think Ceci was either lying or Reinhard was or holding back.

But yea Ceci continues to the most controversial character to power scale....

 

[Zabazab]

It's because he's caught between two extremes of being hyped as comparable to THE strongest character, while also having constant anti feats. Hell, even in Arc 9 he said he'd die if punched 931 times without defending himself, and described Muspel-Arakiya as "incredibly tough". Even his WoG statements are inconsistent, claiming he's equals with Wilhelm and comparable to Theresia, while also claiming he's faster than Reinhard.

But I digress, this isn't what this specific thread is about.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Seems good for now, following.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

Ceci being FTL in base would have god tiers like Reinhard upscale even higher (probably nothing more than adding to his justification) because collar-nerfed Reinhard in Ex4 was able to outspeed and oneshot a mid-swing Ceci.

It was addressed a few times that Cecilus wasn't giving it his all during this fight

 

[Zabazab]

Ba-bump

 

[Gigi_4_life]

Everything seems good, only thing I’m iffy about is Theresia and Wilhelm scaling to Cecilus but I’ll pretend it’s not happening so everything is good.

 

[Zabazab]

Everything seems good, only thing I’m iffy about is Theresia and Wilhelm scaling to Cecilus but I’ll pretend it’s not happening so everything is good.

Yeah yeah save it for your Cecilus thread

Q: In a comparison purely of swordsmanship, which of Wilhelm in his prime and Cecilus would be stronger?

A: I'd like to say that they'd be evenly matched. Since Cecilus is really strong. –Wilhelm's Birthday Q&A 2018

Q: If Theresia fought with Cecilus, who would win?

A: That's a very delicate question, isn't it. Thearesia has no experience with fighting with an equal and being pressured, so I think Theresia would lose due to the difference in experience. –Theresia's Birthday Q&A 2018

 

[Zabazab]

Ba-bump

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I got the same thoughts as Celestial Pegasus

 

[Zabazab]

Gonna apply this soon then.

 

[Vizmer]

I was wondering since Subaru perceived Garf movements in slow motion, wouldn't that qualify his reaction and perception speed to Sub-Relativistic+?

 

[Gigi_4_life]

I was wondering since Subaru perceived Garf movements in slow motion, wouldn't that qualify his reaction and perception speed to Sub-Relativistic+?

Garfiel was already extremely weakened

 

[Vizmer]

Garfiel was already extremely weakened

extremely weakened? where does it state that? Graf was in his transformation while Subaru performed that feat and Otto saved him.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Just noticed, we are scaling God tiers to having higher reaction speed via Wilhelm's feat of reaching perfect focus, yet we aren't giving Wilhelm himself higher reaction speed....

Think that needs to be fixed.

 

[Zabazab]

Just noticed, we are scaling God tiers to having higher reaction speed via Wilhelm's feat of reaching perfect focus, yet we aren't giving Wilhelm himself higher reaction speed....

Think that needs to be fixed.

True & real, I'll add that with your permission when I wake up since it's already accepted as viable, it's just not on his page rn.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

That feat is suppose to be for the "sword masters" who surpass humanity, so besides like Theresia and Kurgan, idk if anyone really scales to that.

 

[Zabazab]

Old Wilhelm, despite being multiple endless gaps away from the pinnacle, is still very high up the chain yes. Wil/Theresia/Kurgan it is. Oh and Halibel.

At some point I'll make a CRT to change what's counted as Peak Wilhelm too.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Speaking of Halibel, we aren't currently really scaling him to some of Cecilius's feats either, like his insane mobility feats of running on lava, sand, and what not, nor does he have the insane body control.

Accelerated development is a little iffy, since we know Ceci has Reid level potential it makes sense he can improve his skills, meanwhile we don't know if Halibel is at his limit (probably is). Even with what we call Peak Wilhelm though, we saw how with every attack, his attacks became more precise, so seems like a consistent thing with really skilled people, though that Wilhelm from Ex 3, wasn't really the Peak that went against Theresia, or what he regained against Valgren, so probably makes sense his skills can improve.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I think the "Becomes more precise against opponent as the fight goes on" is more of an adaptability thing

 

[Zabazab]

Speaking of Halibel, we aren't currently really scaling him to some of Cecilius's feats either, like his insane mobility feats of running on lava, sand, and what not, nor does he have the insane body control.

I can throw it in as a bonus to the AP thread since it's straightforward & Halibel'll 100% be part of that.

though that Wilhelm from Ex 3, wasn't really the Peak that went against Theresia, or what he regained against Valgren, so probably makes sense his skills can improve.

Yeah, true Peak Wilhelm has only shown up twice or thrice. Against Theresia, to defeat Kurgan in BB, and possibly against Valgren. We'll work out the kinks as we reach them.