Re Zero City level Upgrades

[Celestial_Pegasus]

These 2 calcs have been accepted, which comes out to City level.

This is to discuss who it scales to. Here are the obvious ones:

• Valgren and Peak Wilhem-They both performed one of these feats
• Volcanica- One shot Valgen
• Theresia-On a similar level to Wilhelm
• Kurgan-On a similar level to Wilhelm
• Cecilus-Also performed one of the above feats
• Reinhard and Satella- Both are comparable to Volcanica, and Reinhard can one shot Theresia

Next are some less obvious: Grimm, Carol, Roswaal J. The reason is simple, Wilhelm is stronger than them, but they scale to an extent. For example; Grimm is able to block some of Wilhelm's attacks, with Bordeaux's attacks causing him pain:

“Learn to defend, dumbass!” his former commander ordered him.


“”


Wilhelm was practically crawling on the ground as Bordeaux took aim at him with a sweep of his ax. Wilhelm could feel it slice through the air as he spun along with the weapon.


He felt a shock of pain as it grazed him. But the same moment offered him an opening. Bordeaux’s great swing left his body exposed, and Wilhelm drove his sword directly at him. But—


“Damn you, Grimm!”


A huge shield inserted itself between them, repelling his blow, and Wilhelm cursed his old comrade’s defense.


The other combatants were resisting Wilhelm with all their might, for this was what he had wished for. They couldn’t hold back, precisely because they knew Theresia’s heart and understood how Wilhelm felt. That was what had brought them together here in this display of resolution.


“”


Thoughts ran like electricity; hands and feet moved in deeply familiar patterns. In the space of a blink, Wilhelm’s sword lashed out at Grimm three times. Two of them Grimm intercepted with his shield, but he was too late for the third, and with a grunt he sank to the ground.-Ex Novel 3, What Became of Them

Grimm deflect attacks from the Earth Snake

Grimm put all his strength into his shield, deflecting the blow to one side. Instead of hitting its target, it crashed into the stone wall of the tunnel, causing the entire cavern to quiver.

“Hrrk, haak—!” Grimm shook his head with the force of it, blood dribbling from his mouth. He had blocked the blow but couldn’t entirely defeat it. There was an uncomfortable noise from his arms, and he had fallen to his knees. It was unlikely he would be able to deflect a second strike-Ex Novel 3, What Became of Them

Earth Snake can knock Wilhelm around diving the air from his lungs

“Rruuuuaaahhhh—!”


Straining, he aimed a blow at the demon beast’s forehead. His sword bounced off the creature’s skin, but then his excessive commitment to battle found its target anew, and he drove his blade through the monster’s flesh.


The fluids inside the creature burst forth, their color obscured by the darkness, and Wilhelm bellowed as they drenched his body. But that was as far as his blade went. His enemy’s strength was not blunted, and it smashed into him, sending him flying.


“Gah!”


He slammed into a rock wall, driving the breath from his lungs, but still he quickly spun to the side. Barely an instant later, a follow-up attack from the monster crashed into the place he had just been lying, gouging out a piece of the wall. The impact popped the crystal from between his teeth. The light rolled over to settle just in front of the creature, which was raising its head.-Ex Novel 3, the Wedding Day

Bordeaux's squad later comes and finishes off the Worm

“Zergev Squadron, full assault!!”


They heard a great bellow of an order, and then a furious clanging of swords. It was the sound of their comrades mercilessly attacking the Earth Snake, whose momentum had carried it clear out of the mountain.
“Battle concluded. Captain and vice-captain successfully recovered!” Conwood stepped up onto the demon beast’s corpse, grinning down at Wilhelm and Grimm where they sat buried in earth.

It was all Wilhelm could do to growl, “Took you long enough.”-Ex novel 3, The Wedding Day

Bordeaux, who is around the others level, was able to take a blow from Kurgan

Wilhelm:「――BORDEAUX!!」

Wilhelm heard Pivot’s voice and then shouted. Hearing his name, Bordeaux readied his ax and nodded.

Wilhelm kicked off from the ground in an instant, as if he were a cork whizzing out from a bottle, and rushed down towards Kurgan.

Kurgan swung one of his『Demon Cleavers』down in response, aiming for Wilhelm who’d gone in low―― However, Bordeaux brought his ax in its path and caught the blow mid-swing, using all of his strength to stop it.

Kurgan:「 Ngh!?」

Bordeaux:「 Ghaa… Man is a blow from the Empire’s Strongest something heavy!」

An involuntary groan escaped from Kurgan’s lips due to his unexpected interruption; at the same time, Bordeaux’s wounds gushed out blood because of how jarring the blow had been.

However, his pride and spirit had made him catch the blow in its tracks, leaving an opening.

But that didn’t apply just for Kurgan, but for Bordeaux as well.-The Sword Demon Battle Ballard, Act 7

Grimm can take a blow from Valgren

Wilhelm brought his sword towards its looming fangs, flicked them away and lunged again towards its next movement. ――One of its other heads aimed for him from a different angle so to prevent his strike. Smelling the feeling of death rushing towards him from behind, he braced his arms with strength. Yet, his aim was still at the Dragon’s head in front of him.


The attack coming at him from behind didn’t bother him. Because――


Wilhelm:「――GRIMM!!」


Grimm:「 H̷G̵Y̴A̶AA̴A̵A̴A̷―― !! 」


Responding to his war buddy’s call, Grimm clambered onto the Dragon’s back and caught its fangs with his greatshield. Yet, it wasn’t the sort of enemy that could be opposed by the physical strength of man. When he received its blow, one of his knees crumpled at the impact and broke with a shrill crunch. He bit down his screams.-The Sword Demon Battle Ballad

Anyway, while inferior to Wilhelm, ie Gimm's knees breaking from taking Valgren's attack, Bordeaux’s wounds gushing blood from taking Kugan's attack etc, they downscale.

The issue is the Ex Novel 2 characters, years passed between the events of Ex Novel 2, and 3, it's conceivable the characters got stronger, so should we scale Ex Novel 2 characters to the feats of the others from later? That seems wrong to me, but i guess the cast are gonna need new keys to differentiate Ex Novel 2 and 3.


Others have suggested other characters like the Great Spirits, Roswaal, Echidna etc, the reasons for them scaling and anyone else can be discussed below.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Where does Beatrice scale to in terms of magic
she should technically be on the same level of magic as Roswaal but just like him should be 8B physically, right?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

What does Beatrice have to do with this? We were discussing in the Re Zero thread, that she fights with hax, so she shouldn't even scale to 8-B.

As for Roswaal, and the others, the reasons for them scaling, the people who were arguing for it, will no doubt show up again to present the evidence. I just went over the obvious ones in the op.

 

[Fezzih_007]

What does Beatrice have to do with this? We were discussing in the Re Zero thread, that she fights with hax, so she shouldn't even scale to 8-B.

As for Roswaal, and the others, the reasons for them scaling, the people who were arguing for it, will no doubt show up again to present the evidence. I just went over the obvious ones in the op.

Well, ok i gonna wait for them then before giving my opinion.

 

[Zabazab]

I do agree with the cast of BB downscaling from Wilhelm & Valgren since while obviously both are far stronger and could likely take on several of them at once, they aren't completely shit on. I think they heavily downscale.

Puck should upscale ofc, and Sekhmet should 100% upscale from the new 7-B value and should overall have her stats scaled to Volcanica for pummeling him across the Great Waterfall.

I also believe the 4 Great Spirits + Roswaal (who are comparable to each other according to Puck) should scale since they are considered beyond what humans should be capable of, plus Roswaal L. is called the most talented Roswaal, and is either equal to or somewhat stronger than Marcos.

Speaking of whom, he is also stated by Roswaal to be comparable to the SDBB cast, and thus should be 7-B too.

The very last character we have a profile for who imo might scale is Arakiya for being soooomewheeeere approaching Cecilus, but she couldn't handle a Great Spirit's (Muspel's) power in EX5, but again she was a child and has gotten much stronger.

I could also easily be missing stuff/characters so yeah

 

[Fezzih_007]

I do agree with the cast of BB downscaling from Wilhelm & Valgren since while obviously both are far stronger and could likely take on several of them at once, they aren't completely shit on. I think they heavily downscale.

Puck should upscale ofc, and Sekhmet should 100% upscale from the new 7-B value and should overall have her stats scaled to Volcanica for pummeling him across the Great Waterfall.

I also believe the 4 Great Spirits + Roswaal (who are comparable to each other according to Puck) should scale since they are considered beyond what humans should be capable of, plus Roswaal L. is called the most talented Roswaal, and is either equal to or somewhat stronger than Marcos.

Speaking of whom, he is also stated by Roswaal to be comparable to the SDBB cast, and thus should be 7-B too.

The very last character we have a profile for who imo might scale is Arakiya for being soooomewheeeere approaching Cecilus, but she couldn't handle a Great Spirit's (Muspel's) power in EX5, but again she was a child and has gotten much stronger.

I could also easily be missing stuff/characters so yeah

I think this makes sense.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Zabazab Forgot about Sekhmet, but yea might as well upgrade her now, since she drove Volcanica across the great Waterfalls, instead of the mis-translation of "dragons", it would also up her speed and lifting strength, might as well downgrade Beatrice now too.

Arakiya doesn't have a profile yet btw. Arakiya in Ex Novel 5 wasn't even 9 Divine Geneal level imo, except with eating part of Muspel, since she needed Al to deal with Hornet who was 9 Divine General level.

Current Arakiya would probably scale, but the way she fights, i don't think she scales physically, she is treated as a threat cause of her firepower/magic, she doesn't go hand to hand with anyone, that's based on what i have seen so far, idk if arc 7 changes anything, but anyway that's derailing since again she has no profile.

The proposed scaling makes sense though

 

[Zabazab]

Totally agree with you.

Some things that should scale which I forgor: Felt's Meteor, Echidna, Hektor, Daphne, Emilia's Awakened Power, and I'm questioning whether to start my 7-B Shaula campaign.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Shaula should definitely be above 8B

 

[Fezzih_007]

Shaula should definitely be above 8B

I think she should have two different Key too. Like, her human form and Scorpions form.

 

[Zabazab]

Scorpion is arguably less threatening but I agree that two keys would likely be appropriate.

Shaula does have that one anti-feat of Julius + Emilia working together to deflect a Hell's Snipe, but she still has tons of info suggesting she should be rated higher.

Her Hell's Snipe kills Rai in one shot in the LN, she is stated to make Reid have to use both hands 1/10 times they fight, she is stated to be capable of- and actually does kill everyone in Pleiades Watchtower in an IF- and she kills Roswaal in Gluttony IF (though off-screen).

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Totally agree with you.

Some things that should scale which I forgor: Felt's Meteor, Echidna, Hektor, Daphne, Emilia's Awakened Power, and I'm questioning whether to start my 7-B Shaula campaign.

Emilia's Awakened Power is already 7-B, though a lower result, why would it scale though? Guessing cause an equal power to it ie Puck was needed to break Emilia out of the ice? That or maybe some mana capacity argument with Emilia have one of the highest or something.

Scorpion is arguably less threatening but I agree that two keys would likely be appropriate.

Shaula does have that one anti-feat of Julius + Emilia working together to deflect a Hell's Snipe, but she still has tons of info suggesting she should be rated higher.

Her Hell's Snipe kills Rai in one shot in the LN, she is stated to make Reid have to use both hands 1/10 times they fight, she is stated to be capable of- and actually does kill everyone in Pleiades Watchtower in an IF- and she kills Roswaal in Gluttony IF (though off-screen).

I don't really think Julius + Emilia working together is necessarily an anti-feat, cause Shaula could have just not been trying that hard, another thing is Emilia's magic post Puck hiding that she has a lot of mana, will probably in the future be upgraded due to all the ice structures she makes, freezing lakes etc. But we can't really use those since we have no visuals yet.

I think Scorpion Shaula is clearly not 7-B though.

 

[Zabazab]

Emilia's Awakened Power is already 7-B, though a lower result, why would it scale though? Guessing cause an equal power to it ie Puck was needed to break Emilia out of the ice? That or maybe some mana capacity argument with Emilia have one of the highest or something.

It's because first, her Absolute Zero technique is wayyy stronger than her regular magic, and even nullified Volcanica's breath- freezing everything to the degree that time itself was stopped. (+ that one q&a that says Awakened Emilia > Echidna, but that's just complimentary)

She converged as much Mana as miraculously possible and evolved it into Icicle Line.

Though Emilia possessed Mana enough to surprise even her own self, she could not manipulate those vast amounts of Mana all at once.

Regardless of how much Mana there was within her, the quantity she could bring forth at once solely amounted to the capacity of her Gate.

Yet Emilia boasted output more than ten times that of an ordinary magician, but the forte of having lived many years as a Spiritual Arts User further expanded her potential.

Magicians utilized the Mana stockpiled within themselves and through their Gates meddled with the world.

Spiritual Arts Users utilized the Mana in the atmosphere and borrowed the strength of Spirits to meddle with the world.

And, possessing groundings in both of these, Emilia was capable of doing both.

Though the amount of water capable of coming out of a tap was fixed, should that water be stored in a bucket, even greater quantities of water could be used. Emilia executed this using her own flesh body and the world.

Halting the Mana overflowing from her within in the outside world, and utilizing maximal magic heedless of her Gate――

Emilia: “――Absolute Zero.”

That was what Subaru had named it, speaking empty theories on how its materialization would perhaps be arduous.

It was enough to end a real battle with a single blow; that point in time, or thereabouts, was around the same timing as Subaru had exclaimed it to be miraculously unbelievable, therefore Emilia had entered into a contest she had never once succeeded in.

And, she would make it succeed.

If Emilia’s ordinary magical power was to be taken as having a value of “one”, then the potency of this magic which utilized the overflown power and materialized, would be close to “ten” or even possibly “a hundred”.

Instantly, a white vacuum swept over the world, accompanied with such strength that even the impossible-to-halt flow of time would be halted, a phenomenon impossible of being described as meagerly as the atmosphere being frozen.

Even the breath of the Dragon, which was supposed to be inevitable Death, was no exception.

Azure light and absolute null clashed head-on, their collision yielding a vacuum in the world.

That moment, the two maximal potencies, with not the slightest delay, opposed and extinguished each other.

A truly astounding annihilation, accompanied by no sound or impact; and once the time that had supposedly been halted began to flow anew, Emilia readied an ice lance and flew forth.

I think Scorpion Shaula is clearly not 7-B though.

I do agree that Shaula > or >> Crimson Scorpion.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

WTF Emilia....

Reminds me that i haven't read those last few arc 6 chapters cause it wasn't translated at that time, but that is some disgusting hax there, also Volcanica's breath too.

 

[Zabazab]

Emilia, Ram, Rai, Meili, and especially Julius reach the new peaks of their power in the last few chapters of Arc 6, it's pretty nutty.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

So far it's agreed these people scale to 7-B:

• Valgren and Peak Wilhem
• Volcanica
• Theresia
• Kurgan
• Cecilus
• Reinhard and Satella
• Puck and Melakuera
• Sekhmet
• Carol
• Grimm
• Roswaal J
• Roswaal L with Magic
• Marcos
• Felt's Meteor
• Echidna
• Hektor
• Daphne
• Emilia's Awakened Power

We are currently discussing Shaula, seems like she might scale in her human form. Though i know her rating has been controversial in the past, so wouldn't be surprised if like Cecilius someone else comes in and wants to go into it further, so not gonna put her on the list yet.

This is a sizable list here, and it's pulling from some stuff i have yet to read, so when it's done @Zabazab would appreciate if you could help with the editing. I would do the Ex Novel/Battle Ballard cast, you can do the others.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Why Ecchidna scales again?

 

[Zabazab]

Right so I'd be handling

• Volcanica
• Cecilus
• Reinhard
• Satella
• Puck
• Melakeura
• Sekhmet
• Roswaal L.'s magic
• Marcos
• Felt's meteor
• Echidna
• Hektor
• Daphne
• Emilia's Awakened Power

then? Aight.

 

[Zabazab]

Why Ecchidna scales again?

She can give Roswaal a good fight according to Tappei.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Zabazab Yea pretty much, though i can do Volcanica and Cecilus since they are in the Battle Ballard/Ex Novels.

@Fezzih_007 Roswaal=Echidna

Q: Echidna is Roswaal's instructor in magic, but is there any magic or anything that the current Roswaal can't use?

A: No. The current Roswaal has reached Echidna's level.-Echidna's Birthday 2019

Q: In terms of fighting ability, Echidna is around whose level?

A: Around Roswaal.-Echidna's Birthday 2019

Also on the topic, i found that q&a which says current Roswaal is the strongest

Q: Between the original Roswaal and the current Roswaal, which of their magic affinity and strength was greater?

A: The current Roswaal is overwhelmingly higher. The original was quite a genius, but the current Roswaal has arranged his bloodline to become the strongest.-Roswaal's birthday 2018

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Hm. Of course, I agree. Although, if there is some issues with Shaula being 7-B, couldn't she just get a possibly 7-B rating like how Cecilus has a possibly High 6-C rating? And in addition to this, could Pre-Subaru Contract Beatrice's barriers get a possibly 7-B rating due to 'em blocking some of Roswaal's attacks and, if my memory serves me right, there is a Q&A quote that states she can give Roswaal a good fight?

 

[VortechsTG]

So far it's agreed these people scale to 7-B:

• Valgren and Peak Wilhem
• Volcanica
• Theresia
• Kurgan
• Cecilus
• Reinhard and Satella
• Puck and Melakuera
• Sekhmet
• Carol
• Grimm
• Roswaal J
• Roswaal L with Magic
• Marcos
• Felt's Meteor
• Echidna
• Hektor
• Daphne
• Emilia's Awakened Power

We are currently discussing Shaula, seems like she might scale in her human form. Though i know her rating has been controversial in the past, so wouldn't be surprised if like Cecilius someone else comes in and wants to go into it further, so not gonna put her on the list yet.

This is a sizable list here, and it's pulling from some stuff i have yet to read, so when it's done @Zabazab would appreciate if you could help with the editing. I would do the Ex Novel/Battle Ballard cast, you can do the others.

Yeah, this looks good fra. I agree with Shaula as well. Especially considering iirc she is able to beat Capella who is nearly as strong as Roswaal (Although tbf, possibly through hax) and speedblitzed Garfiel to an insane degree in gluttony if. I wonder if we could get a calc for that.

 

[Zabazab]

And in addition to this, could Pre-Subaru Contract Beatrice's barriers get a possibly 7-B rating due to 'em blocking some of Roswaal's attacks and, if my memory serves me right, there is a Q&A quote that states she can give Roswaal a good fight?

Q: When Rem died at the mansion, if he'd fought with Beatrice how would that have turned out?

A: Inside the mansion, Beatrice would give him quite a good fight, but since Roswaal didn't intend to kill Beatrice, and once Subaru fled Beatrice stopped trying to buy time, it seems like the fight is undecided. - Roswaal's 2018 birthday q&a

 

[Zabazab]

The fact that Shaula can effortlessly blitz and one-shot 8-B characters, killed Roswaal L. Mathers, was a Hero who aided in sealing Satella, and made Reid Astrea- the guy who in some circumstances can be stronger than Reinhard- take her even a little seriously every so often.

Shaula: “You should always keep that piece of shit in mind. Even if the bully forgets, the one bullied absolutely never will, and that’s a fact…”

Subaru: “I’m not really surprised since there’s a precedent in Reinhard, but it’d take quite a monster to knock you down a few pegs, and Reid Astrea’s one too.”

Shaula: “He really was the worst. But, I was able to get him to use both hands once every ten times we fought.”

Subaru: “…I see.”

He could only answer with that. Had she set her goals high or low in making him use both of his hands once every ten times, and not to gain victory once every ten times?

Subaru felt like he would not be able to make Reinhard use both his hands even once every hundred times, so he could admit that her putting up a fight like that had been plenty enough. - Arc 6 Chapter 22

I think she's at least stronger than Grimm, no shade ofc.

You could say that Shaula could see where the Sword Saint stood on the stairway of strength, while Wilhelm considers Reinhard to be an entirely different dimension of strength that is difficult to percieve and impossible to reach.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I don't disagree.

If nobody objects within 48 hours, think it would be fine for you to upgrade her.

Idk if we even need any other staff here, since the calcs are accepted, and this is just scaling which None-Re Zero fans have no clue about.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Nope, we still need about two-or-three staff agrees to apply this to profiles - speaking as a person who made quite a few upgrade CRTs via approved calcs.

 

[Zabazab]

Tbh her strength isn't even the most controversial aspect of Shaula, it's almost definitely her speed- specifically that of Hell's Snipe- that would cause a lot of disagreement.

Can't wait for that eventual discussion :>

Also I'm assuming Beatrice's ap will be changed to "unknown" with magic right? Since her only displays of "magic ap" come from tossing Subaru out of her room.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Idk if we should even scale her magic, since what she uses it for is hax, but not opposed to an unknown rating.

 

[Zabazab]

Oh if it's not necessary then maybe something more like "10-B physically, can negate durability with magic" would be better.

Honestly Subaru is becoming ridiculous with hax for tier 10, or even tier 9 lol

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Yea that works.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

bump

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Lets try and wrap this up @DarkDragonMedeus @KingTempest @JustSomeWeirdo

We have decided that the following characters scale to the accepted calcs in the op:

• Valgren
• Peak Wilhem
• Volcanica
• Theresia
• Kurgan
• Cecilus
• Reinhard
• Satella
• Puck
• Melakuera
• Sekhmet
• Carol
• Grimm
• Roswaal J
• Roswaal L with Magic
• Marcos
• Felt's Meteor
• Echidna
• Hektor
• Daphne
• Emilia's Awakened Power
• Shaula

We just need your approval now.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Lets try and wrap this up @DarkDragonMedeus @KingTempest @JustSomeWeirdo

We have decided that the following characters scale to the accepted calcs in the op:

• Valgren
• Peak Wilhem
• Volcanica
• Theresia
• Kurgan
• Cecilus
• Reinhard
• Satella
• Puck
• Melakuera
• Sekhmet
• Carol
• Grimm
• Roswaal J
• Roswaal L with Magic
• Marcos
• Felt's Meteor
• Echidna
• Hektor
• Daphne
• Emilia's Awakened Power
• Shaula

We just need your approval now.

Looks all good to me.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Thank you.

We just need 1 more staff now i think? Unless my own approval counts for something, which i don't think is the case.

 

[Zabazab]

Ah I also wanted to ask if the question of Beatrice's barriers will be done in this or future CRT.

Pre-contract her durability via barriers could be scaled to Roswaal who she can fight and thus the new 7-B value, or simply be kept 8-B for directly blocking Ram's Fura wind spell.

What she could be scaled to post-contract I have no idea- either 8-B like the other magicians, possibly 7-B (although her mana pool is pathetic compared to before, so not scaling would make sense too), or it could even be unknown as I do not remember an instance off the top of my head of contracted Beatrice blocking an attack with barriers, it's mostly defensive hax she uses now like EMM and EMT.

 

[KingTempest]

@KingTempest

Looks solid to me

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Thank you. With that there is enough support to apply this.

@Zabazab The statement is that she could give him a good fight, but we didn't see her block any of his attacks, i think it's possible her barriers could have blocked Roswaal's attacks, but nothing definitive there so At least 8-B, possibly 7-B probably works best.

We haven't seen her use it post-contract from my memory, so best to leave it unknown i think.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Will start to apply my portion of this now.

 

[Zabazab]

I'll start too.

 

[Zabazab]

Can I remove Roswaal's Divine Protection of Sorcery due to it being retconned in the LN version as just magical talent? @Celestial_Pegasus