[Re:Zero] Arc 8 High Tier AP Upgrade

[Zabazab]

In the 8th arc, "Vincent Vollachia", Garfiel does this feat after getting way stronger. This thread is to sort out who should scale to it.

The Characters Who Obviously Scale

Garfiel Tinzel – He performed the feat, so he scales. I have made a sandbox for his new key that scales.

Cecilus Segmunt (Canon) – Cecilus is a transcendent being and among the 5 strongest people of his era. Even while fighting alongside Garfiel, he is specifically called out as "far too powerful".

Halibel – Same reasoning as Cecilus.

Theresia – Scales to Cecilus.

Peak Wilhelm – Scales to Theresia.

Puck (Beast of the End) – Puck in his true form was ranked among the 5 strongest characters in 2014. He is capable of destroying the world, and he is worthy of Reinhard drawing the Dragon Sword.

Sekhmet – Stronger than Puck.


The Characters Who Potentially Scale

This would be a much bigger overhaul, but I couldn't ignore the possibility. That is the possibility that all of the 6-C characters (currently scaling off of Echidna) should be made 6-A.

Sphinx, after gaining the powers of Echidna, faces off against a good chunk of the cast. This includes 4 fighters selected as the elite forces for facing Sphinx– Cecilus, Halibel, Garfiel, and Eugard.

Spoiler: Arc 8, Chapter 71

“――Swordsman, Cecilus Segmunt.”

“――Witch of Greed, Sphinx.”

Before she could even realize, that had naturally spilled out of the Sphinxes’ mouths.

At the same time that the Blue Lightning and the Witch’s techniques caused tremors throughout the Imperial Capital, similar fierce battles to prevent the activation of the magic circle broke out in three other locations.

“――Admirer, Halibel.”

“――Witch of Greed, Sphinx.”

“――Sixty-First Emperor of Vollachia, Eugard Vollachia.”

“――Witch of Greed, Sphinx.”

“――Gorgeous Tiger, Garfiel Tinzel.”

“――Witch of Greed, Sphinx.”

The elite forces, selected by Natsuki Subaru, faced the Witch as a spear to destroy the final stratagem of the Great Disaster, and were subjected to a fierce magical onslaught.

Once the Magic Crystals of the Crystal Palace, which were being deconstructed, completely flowed into the Witch’s soul, it would no longer be possible to thwart her plans.

The reason being, her possible measures would extend into infinity.

Depending on the user’s imagination and practical utility, magic could extend one’s possibilities infinitely.

In other words, by acquiring an extreme amount of Mana, the Witch, Sphinx, would gain the power of a transcendent being that could make almost anything possible.

It would give her the key to overcome all obstacles, and to fulfill her desires.

Out of these 4, only Cecilus and Halibel are called out as being "too powerful" by Sphinx, implying she does not see Garfiel as someone she cannot fight against.

Spoiler: Arc 8, Chapter 73

With the supply of Mana to the magic circle severed, she had spent around five seconds sorting out the situation.

But, in those mere five seconds, Sphinx, who had already been reduced to thirty-six bodies, was diminished by another seven, bringing her total count down to twenty-nine.

Moving with superhuman speed and combat ability, the Blue Lightning and the Admirer were far too powerful.

Although she was supposed to be able to reproduce the capacity of her creator, the Witch of Greed, she could not hold her own in the slightest. She could not even get a solid hit in. These opponents were on a level such that she could not even overcome them by sheer force of numbers.

Even if she wanted to do something about that, those two fighting were not the only ones up against the Witch.

Additionally, in Arc 9 Chapter 12, Garfiel fights Al while Al abuses his Authority to redo a fight with his memories intact. During this fight, despite being vastly outmatched, Al breaks Garfiel's jaw with earth magic (Garfiel resists earth magic, by the way). Even if this is an outlier, it clearly implies that if a character of second-rate strength can harm Garfiel this much, a monster like Echidna could damage him with her magic.

Spoiler: Arc 9, Chapter 12

Garfiel is stronger:

The backfist of the roaring Garfiel was narrowly dodged by his opponent, who had crouched just in time. The power of the strike was reduced to him merely grazing the enemy with the underside of his little finger, causing Garfiel to grit his teeth.

He kept missing. No matter how many punches he threw, he could not land a clean hit with a single one.

As for his opponent――,

Aldebaran: [Dona.]

A brief incantation, and the sensation of magic interfering with the world, made Garfiel’s hair stand on end as his body leaned forward.

In the subsequent moment, a block of stone that had appeared airborne struck Garfiel’s face with a noticeable impact, as if to meet the angle at which he had tilted his head.

A pained groan escaped his mouth, and his lip was split. In terms of power, it was a weak blow. For Garfiel, who had fought against high-class warriors in the Empire, who had even clashed with a Dragon, it was far from enough to incapacitate him, let alone cause a significant injury.

However, he did not believe that this was the result of his opponent holding back.

Aldebaran: [Huff, huff…]

Breathing heavily, Al, who had cast the spell that had struck Garfiel’s face, remained on-guard without a hint of relaxation.

His apparent exhaustion was not a ruse to induce Garfiel’s carelessness; he was genuinely out of breath. It was only a matter of course. According to Garfiel’s assessment, the difference in ability between them was so significant that Al would be incapacitated by even a single powerful blow.

Perhaps, it would not even require a powerful blow.

If even one of Garfiel’s barrage of punches were to land, it would terminate the fight. In the span of a single breath, he could unleash dozens of such finishing blows.

Needless to say, facing such a situation would drain both one’s mental and physical strength.

Even though that ought to go without saying――,

Garfiel: [It just, won’t hit… Hk!]

Bewildered, Garfiel was unable to make heads or tails of what was occurring to him.

Al’s movements and counterattacks revealed a significant gap in skill when compared to Garfiel. This was not a matter of arrogance, but rather because, as a warrior, Garfiel was far superior to Al.

And yet, attacks that should have landed, and evasions that should have been successful, were failing completely.

Garfiel’s attacks continued to miss, while Al’s attacks continued to land.

While they lacked the power necessary to critically injure Garfiel, the bothersome attacks were sufficient to halt his movement and to prevent follow-up strikes――,

Al deals with Garfiel (Garfiel pov):

Hearing Ezzo’s voice warning of danger, Garfiel felt something closing in straight towards his nose―― he opened his mouth wide and caught it with his fangs.

A full-force punch aimed to crush Garfiel’s face right after he had been blinded, meant to bait him in. But that was not enough to break Garfiel’s resolve to do whatever it took.

Garfiel: [I’ll fhix if lay’r, dhumbassh!]

With the sensation of his fangs sinking into the fist and stopping it, Garfiel tightened his jaw, promising to heal Al after stripping him of his ability to do battle.

It was a cold-blooded decision, but Al was one-armed. He fought with only his right arm, and were he to be robbed of the function of his one remaining arm, he would no longer be able to fight. So, Garfiel intended to rip it apart from the wrist to the elbow――,

Garfiel: [――Ah?]

As he increased his bite force, he realized something.

The fist Garfiel caught in his bite was shaped like Al’s left hand, which he should not have.

Garfiel: [――Bwaagh!?]

In the next instant, Al’s fist in Garfiel’s mouth swelled up violently, shattering his jawbone under the pressure and sending shards of his upper and lower canines flying through the air.

Furthermore, the fingers that had extended into his mouth jabbed deep into Garfiel’s throat, triggering an unbearable gag reflex―a response triggered when fingers are thrust down one’s throat, and paralyzing him. ――Then, a calculated, hard, and heavy blow struck Garfiel’s jaw diagonally.

Garfiel: [Kah… Kh!]

Blinded and thrown into blackness, Garfiel felt the sensation of his whole world flipping upside down. Having been struck on the jaw, his brain rattled, and his sense of balance vanished, making it impossible to stay on his feet as his knees buckled.

Being utterly overwhelmed so one-sidedly, Garfiel belatedly realized something.

Ezzo’s desperate cry had been a deliberate warning, anticipating that if Garfiel were to take Al’s attack head-on, this would be the result.

In other words, this all had been as per Al’s bait――.

Aldebaran: [Remember when I said recklessness’s the toughest thing to deal with? I lied. Those who don’t think ain’t a threat to me.]

Al deals with Garfiel (Ezzo pov):

Subsequently, catching sight of the attack that followed that blinding, Ezzo had screamed.

Al had employed magic to reconstruct his missing arm out of earth, and had thrown a punch with it.

Garfiel had opened his mouth wide, attempting to bite down upon the arm of earth, but that would only end poorly. Ezzo’s grim premonition proved true, for the earthen arm violently exploded within Garfiel’s mouth.

Garfiel: [――BWAAGHHK!?]

The expanding arm destroyed the inside of Garfiel’s mouth, and a spray of fangs and blood followed.

To add to that, having encased his right hand in a gauntlet of stone, Al delivered a powerful sideways punch to the jaw of the stupefied Garfiel.

Garfiel collapsed to his knees. ――His successive movements were efficient, extremely so.

Ezzo: [Something of this sort should not be possible, even in pre-arranged sparring…!]

As Al brilliantly halted Garfiel’s advance with a barrage of blows, with strikes that would have been impossible to execute even if the sequence had been part of a martial arts demonstration, Ezzo’s vigilance continued to rise to its zenith.

Altering Wilogy Scaling

Currently, Wilhelm is treated as "Peak Wilhelm" following the finale of Ex Novel 2, simply being constantly at his peak henceforth. However, "Peak Wilhelm" is actually a temporary state that Wilhelm reaches only two or three times.

In Sword Demon Battle Ballad, Wilhelm reaches an awakened state and blitzes & defeats Kurgan, his equal. This was described as "rivalling the swordsmanship he displayed when he defeated Theresia."

Spoiler: Awakened Wilhelm

Faced with『Death』that had been unleashed at him from three sides at once, the『Sword Demon’s』answer was decidedly simple.

If death unavoidable was coming for him, then he only had one yearning as a swordsman―― To use his silvery steel to thrust death faster at him.

His sword sublimated to a might that went from super-speed to hyper-speed, to hyper-speed to the speed of god, until finally transcending the very concept of steel.

Upwards, leftwards, rightwards―― He had no way of knowing what sort of feeling must have gone through the『Eight Arms’』heart the moment that he’d parried all three of his critical attacks head on.

Wilhelm:「――」

Wilhelm himself couldn’t comprehend in the very moment how stunning of a feat that it was he’d accomplished. Perhaps his sword technique had rivalled the time when he’d defeated the『Sword Saint』Theresia at the ceremony to mark the end of the Civil War; in other words, the Absolute Sword that had reached the very pinnacle――

Basically, Ex3 Wilhelm and most of Battle Ballad Wilhelm are "Young Wilhelm" not "Peak Wilhelm". This means that Kurgan no longer directly scales to Theresia and Peak Wilhelm.

Whether Valgren scales is still iffy? Young Wilhelm was overpowered by Valgren but could fight it, during his clash against it he thinks he needs to recall his Peak Swordsmanship. Also, it was defeated fairly easily by Cecilus and Halibel.

Spoiler: Valgren vs Transcendents

Young Wilhelm vs Valgren

He swung his Holy Sword out and parried away, with all the strength he could muster, the Dragon’s Claws that had come scything towards him. Both of his shoulders creaked as he received the impact, some of his muscles ruptured, and it felt like he’d chipped some of his molars from clenching them so hard.

Fragile. I’m shoddier than ever. My sword was too shoddy right now.

I need to recall my finale with Kurgan. The moment where I avoided that guy’s blow of certain death, and get as close to it as I can. Or―― get close to the levels that my sword technique was at when I snatched Theresia away from the Sword God. —Sword Demon Battle Ballad

Halibel vs Valgren

In the distant sky, there could be seen the figure of a wolfman clashing with the mighty Blight Dragon, dark as blackened clouds.

Lamia: “It is outside my calculations that Valgren is unable to be used, but to successfully keep that one occupied is quite the achievement.”

Through her narrowed golden eyes, Lamia was able to see just how exceptional the wolfman seen with Valgren really was.

Goz, one of the Empire’s Nine Generals of the First-Class, was undoubtedly among the world’s mightiest warriors. And that entity, surpassing even Goz, was contending with a being belonging to the world’s most powerful lifeform.

――No, on the contrary, the Blight Dragon was the one who was being overpowered.

The only reason why the Blight Dragon had not been completely overcome was because its ability to recover exceeded the damage from the attacks it was suffering. Even when shattered time and time again, the shinobi was not able to finish off the regenerating Blight Dragon.

The fact that it could not be killed alone, already made it more than enough of an unusual sight. —Arc 8, Chapter 27

Cecilus & Halibel vs Valgren

The Blight Dragon had three heads and its prey numbered exactly three people: Subaru, Beatrice, and Roswaal. The three heads of the Blight Dragon approached as if in competition with each other, with the size of a single large head appearing to be more than enough to get all of them.

Just as the sharp fangs of the undead Dragon were about to tear the lives of Subaru and his friends apart.

???: “One strike――!”

???: “I won’t let’cha take ’em.”

On either side of the Blight Dragon, two shadows rose up diagonally from below and struck a blow from each direction, slicing off two of its three heads, sending them flying.

A jet-black furred wolfman, and a thunderous blue lightning rising from the earth into the sky, the ones to do this were――

Subaru: “Halibel-san and a huuuge Ceci!?”

.......

With Subaru and Beatrice under Roswaal’s arms, immediately after he spoke, the debris in the air gathered instantly, and an impromptu scaffold was created there.

That scaffold provided Cecilus and Halibel with another chance to leap.

Halibel: “Even if it’s only got one head, a Dragon’s a Dragon.”

Cecilus: “We don’t wanna be interrupted during the decisive moment. Let’s slay it quickly!”

How many people could so casually say such a thing to one of the most powerful creatures in the world, a Dragon, and none other than the Blight Dragon?

And yet, the two immediately proved that it was no kind of jest or boast.

――A flash of blue and black streaked across the sky, instantly catching up with the Blight Dragon that was trying to take advantage of the distance.

In a moment, the Dragon’s wings were torn to shreds as it was pierced by three separate wolfmen in midair, creating “death holes”. However, the warriors would not let the Dragon miserably fall to its death.

A flash of lightning, a slash from the sword that manifested dreams, split the black scales of the Blight Dragon vertically, and its life was severed in two.

It was one of the most abrupt and legendary Dragon-slaying acts in the world.

Beatrice: “…Those guys are outrageous, in fact.”

Subaru had seen the same thing that Beatrice had, and agreed wholeheartedly.

Even though Subaru was aware of this as information, two of the world’s strongest individuals were unbeatable in ways that went beyond his simple imagination. In fact, with them he felt like he could not lose, just like having Reinhard on his side.

Now that Cecilus had grown up, together with Halibel, that feeling was even stronger―― –Arc 8, Chapter 70

That's about it. Input is appreciated, thanks.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Maybe a kid cecilus key in this CRT would have been appropriate too....

 

[Fezzih_007]

I not sure about Sphinx scaling to it.
Like:

Out of these 4, only Cecilus and Halibel are called out as being "too powerful" by Sphinx,

That makes sense, since "Moving with superhuman speed and combat ability" and "She could not even get a solid hit in" implying atleast that she could't fight against them not only because of Power, but because of speed difference.

implying she does not see Garfiel as someone she cannot fight against.

So considering the way we scale everyone, she could still hit Garfiel since they more or less comparable in speed, but she probally still could't stand in power.

Like, he atleast appeared just fine after fighting a lot of clones of her when he show up to help later.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

Agree with everything except Wilhelm and Theresia scaling to Cecilus and Halibel but this is a topic for another time. I think Valgren should still scale to peak Wilhelm and Theresia, as he would have killed young Wilhelm a couple times if he hadn't received help from others. Even if you think they could beat Valgren (which I'm still iffy about), they should all be on the same level/relative to each other imo.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Al shouldn't be used to prove anything honestly, his looping is used by Tappei to explain him doing ridiculous stuff. Like imo his rating should be something like 9-B+ or 9-A, up to 6-A via Authority. As stated above his skills are second rate and he can be contented with by Todd who isn't even 2nd Rank Divine General level, not to mention Al would have died if dropped a distance of like 20m or something but with lopping he can beat ppl like Garfiel.

As for Sphinx, she also fought Emilia, who was deflecting her attacks and what not, granted by this point she was already weakened due to using magic for days, but still if we want to take the weakened version of Sphinx we see, as being Garfiel level, think it creates a problem, where everyone scales to Garfiel, which shouldn't be the case.

 

[Zabazab]

Like imo his should be something like 9-B+ or 9-A up to 6-A via Authority.

I hate (scaling) Al so much man he is way more bullshit than any of the god-tier swordsmen.

Anyways I'll take that as an agree to the first set of characters, and a disagree to the second set of characters.

As for Sphinx, she also fought Emilia, who was deflecting her attacks and what not

To be fair, it was said that this was due to the reflective properties of her ice & that if Emilia's affinity was Earth she'd have shot through it, but then IDK why Sphinx wouldn't just use any spell that isn't Jiwald lol

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Off the top of my head, there is also Yorna blocking Sphinx's Jiwald while it was in motion going towards Priscilla, though I don't remember if she was being amped by Priscilla's Soul Marriage at that moment.

Yorna is also another weird character to scale, because her strength is dependent on her mental state, where not believing in herself can let fodder like Rowan overpower her, I assume wanting to protect her daughter could give her a major boast, but ehh.