Re-doing Conceptual Manipulation Justification - TenSura (LN)

[Astral_Trinity439]

This thread will be entirely focused around re-Justifying already accepted things to make their justifications more solid, and also due to a recent thread that said they should be "Obviously Downgraded" but did not had any solid arguments to back up its claims.
Please keep the discussion civil, avoid toxic behavior as well as derailing!
With that, lets begin with the new proposals

Spiritual Lifeforms' Concept Type​

The new wording should be as follows :

Spoiler: New Wording

Abstract Existence (Type 1):

• Concept (Type 1 - Great Spirits are the attributes[1] that precede existence itself[2]; the laws that govern the very principle of The World. Elemental Spirits are split off from the Great Spirit representing each Attribute[3], they are Spiritual Lifeforms[4] that embody the abstract laws that govern the world[1]. For instance, Demons embody the Darkness Attribute[5] as they are born from it[6]; True Dragons are also part of the attributes as they are bound by the attribute assigned to them, even though True Dragons are the highest form of Elemental Souls, the latter being something higher than even Elemental Spirits[1]. Additionally, Spiritual Lifeforms can exist as their own conceptual selves[7],they can retain their form at the end of space and time and are thus unaffected by it[8], a point in the far distant future where the universe itself[9] has come to an end[9], the End of the World itself, leaving only complete nothingness, not even laws or concepts exists there[9])
• Information (Type 2 - Spiritual Lifeforms can abandoned their physical bodies and exist only as pure souls[10]; Information particle and information are the fundamental aspect of Tensura and all things such as Mind, Soul, and Abstract things like Skills are made up of it[11][12][13]; Information particles in Tensura also serves as the root of the world[9])

Arguments and Counters :​

Following the above wording, it is natural that arguments will still arise. This section is to clear any of the major arguments that may arise :

• Great Spirits are not attributes/Elements [Attribute : Element; Alternate Translations]

Answer : It should be noted that there are quite a few reasonings why attributes, the Laws that govern the World, actually are Great Spirits, Concepts.

• Spirits had "split off" from the Great Spirits, yet Spirits are born from Attributes, such as Water spirits being born from the water attribute
• From the previous, it would be that Demons are born from the Dark and Light Attribute, yet its stated that are they derived from the Great Spirit of Darkness and embody darkness itself, stated again.

So basically, Great Spirits are the same thing as Attributes.

• If Great Spirits are Attributes, that are Laws that govern the World, why would they and their derivatives be Concepts instead?

Answer : Spiritual Lifeforms are explicitly implied to have a Conceptual Self. Additionally, they are made of magicules , in other words, they are Magic itself, which itself is directly implied to be conceptual in nature and an idea.

• Wouldn't the statement that they can retain their form at the End of Space-Time be a hyperbole from how it is described?

Answer : Without any further context, yes, it would definitely be considered a Hyperbole. However, we have a explicit feats of Vega and Mai surviving there.

• Ramiris stated that surviving in Subspace is hopeless no matter how much of a spiritual lifeform you are, wouldn't that mean they can't survive in Subspace and/or the End of Space-Time?

Answer : This one is simple. Ramiris used the wording "There is always a phase change in Subspace, so you'll be jumped to the end of the universe or to its beginning, Ramiris also said surviving in this place is "hopeless" for Spiritual lifeforms". but that does not mean they will literally die there or will be unable to retain their form. This would most probably be referring to what happened to Vega, who along with Mai survived there, would continue drifting their forever, which derived him insane, but it definitely did not kill him. There's also to note that Ramiris said "no matter how much of a spiritual lifeform you are", which would logically include all Spiritual Lifeforms of any level, including True Dragons, but we already know that Velgrynd survived there.

• Didn't Rimuru say his Friends[which are Spiritual Lifeforms] had died when he was at the End of Space and Time?

Answer : Another slight argument from ignorance. We already know Feldway had destroyed the Cardinal Universe himself, it did not end in a natural manner, meaning Rimuru's companions were killed by Feldway, or maybe even Ivarage. Otherwise even True Dragons wouldn't be Type 1 Concepts because they didn't exist in Rimuru's version of "End of Space and Time", even though True Dragons have all the feats needed to be Type 1 Concepts.

Magic's Conceptual Manipulation Type​

Spoiler: New Wording

• Magic, Subjective Reality, Law Manipulation, and Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1; Magic is an idea projected into Reality and used to turn imagination into Reality and influence the laws of the world.[14][15][16][17][18]. Magic abides by the World Language that turns nonphysical phenomena into real life[19] in the same way magic could rewrite the laws of the world. The Great Spirits are the Attributes, the laws governing the Principle of The World[10] and a natural phenomenon in its purest, most original form.[20] The concept of magic also applies to Spiritual Lifeforms who are also magic themselves[21] . Using magicules would have been futile at the end of space and time where the universe had ceased to exist leaving only complete nothingness, no laws, no concept, nothing, however Vega who was a Spiritual Lifeform could still release his energy despite the circumstances[22])
• Non-Physical Interaction (Concept Type 1; Information Type 2; Magic can work on a conceptual level[23] and it could interact[24] and damage[25] Spiritual-Lifeforms who have no physical body)

Arguments and Counters :​

• Magic shouldn't be conceptual just because it can harm conceptual beings. That's just NPI.

Answer : Normally, yes, that would be the case, but Magic is specifically stated to work conceptually, there is also the fact that Spiritual Lifeforms are made of Magicules as well, they are Magic itself. This also requires that their CM Type is Type 1, because you can't be Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 yet be harming a Type 1 Concept with that Conceptual Manipulation.

• What happens to Skills, in that case?

Answer : Skills are just the same as magic in their working, in that they manipulate the Laws of the World[Great Spirits] but just systemized, stated again. As its already made clear that Great Spirits and Attributes[Laws] are the same thing, their Conceptual Manipulation also remains Type 1.

Additional Minor Upgrade
As we've discussed above how Magic is Conceptual in nature, True Dragons will have Abstract Existence (Type 1) even for their "Physical Bodies" which are made of Magic. To be honest I don't even get why it was Type 2 in the first place when "Physical" in-verse is not always referring to Physical in a Non-Abstract sense

--That concludes all the proposals--​

Votes​

Agree :​

Disagree :​

Neutral :​

 

[Tempestdragon6]

agree

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I completely agree with this

 

[ELITE127]

agree

 

[Eikichi_Sensei]

I agree, but answer my question, ok?

When we talk about independent reality in Tensura, what is it?

"The world" or universes/realms/dimensions?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I agree, but answer my question, ok?

When we talk about independent reality in Tensura, what is it?

"The world" or universes/realms/dimensions?

Which part are you referring to by "Independent Reality"?

 

[Eikichi_Sensei]

I want to say that the concepts of type 1 are independent of reality, so he asked me how we took reality in Tensura.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I do generally agree with a majority of this thread, but I think you should more demonstrate that magic flowing on a conceptual level is more universal, because Veldora specifically mentions Rimuru’s magic flow operates conceptually.

 

[Berga14]

I want to say that the concepts of type 1 are independent of reality, so he asked me how we took reality in Tensura.

For the 8GS reality is the entire cosmology but every world has its own things. So it only depends on the context around those concepts.

 

[Wikisource]

Agree with all

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I want to say that the concepts of type 1 are independent of reality, so he asked me how we took reality in Tensura.

Do you mean the CM Type 1 for magic, or AE Concept type 1 for SLFS?

I do generally agree with a majority of this thread, but I think you should more demonstrate that magic flowing on a conceptual level is more universal, because Veldora specifically mentions Rimuru’s magic flow operates conceptually.

Magic itself manipulates the Laws of the World, explained here as well, which is this thing, so that pretty much shows its manipulating at least tier 2 concepts
Although, if you want more, there is also a statement that implies magic manipulates universal laws

 

[Eikichi_Sensei]

Do you mean the CM Type 1 for magic, or AE Concept type 1 for SLFS?

Magic itself manipulates the Laws of the World, explained here as well, which is this thing, so that pretty much shows its manipulating at least tier 2 concepts
Although, if you want more, there is also a statement that implies magic manipulates universal laws

For SLFS

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Magic itself manipulates the Laws of the World, explained here as well, which is this thing, so that pretty much shows its manipulating at least tier 2 concepts
Although, if you want more, there is also a statement that implies magic manipulates universal laws

But why is this explicitly concept manipulation? It mentions things such as law manipulation, subjective reality, and more, but no objective mention of concepts. It can be these things, but you’re making such a big positive claim that I feel it requires sufficient evidence to accommodate.

 

[Mizuki67]

But why is this explicitly concept manipulation? It mentions things such as law manipulation, subjective reality, and more, but no objective mention of concepts. It can be these things, but you’re making such a big positive claim that I feel it requires sufficient evidence to accommodate.

Mg they had to be Conceptual because they work on spiritual lifeforms who are Conceptual beings. The laws in the verse is a concept this had been discussed like ages ago before you were not here.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Can you link thread?

 

[Mizuki67]

Can you link thread?

Tensura Revision (simple upgrade) : Part (lost count)

magic and Law manipulation in tensura Magic abide by the World language that turns nonphysical phenomenal into real life, in this same vein magic literally Rewrite the laws of the world, working the same way as skill, the laws of the world is an abstract rule that governs over every principle of...

vsbattles.com

 

[Mizuki67]

For SLFS

They are independent to the world were they represent as laws

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks alright but will ping @Elizhaa

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

For SLFS

We cannot by default assume they cover the Entire Cosmology unlike GHS, since the latter has clear statements that it covers the whole verse, while normal SLFs don't
Therefore, the "Independent of reality" will be the independence to the destruction of their home World

Actually, there is indeed a statement for Spiritual Lifeforms that says they impact the Physical World, implied again that their influence holds over the material world
So basically, the "influence" they have over reality, or in other words, the size of the reality they "govern", extends to a single self-enclosed World

But why is this explicitly concept manipulation? It mentions things such as law manipulation, subjective reality, and more, but no objective mention of concepts. It can be these things, but you’re making such a big positive claim that I feel it requires sufficient evidence to accommodate.

Read the OP first, there is a reason why I created the Counter Argument section

• Magic shouldn't be conceptual just because it can harm conceptual beings. That's just NPI.

Answer : Normally, yes, that would be the case, but Magic is specifically stated to work conceptually, there is also the fact that Spiritual Lifeforms are made of Magicules as well, they are Magic itself. This also requires that their CM Type is Type 1, because you can't be Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 yet be harming a Type 1 Concept with that Conceptual Manipulation.

• If Great Spirits are Attributes, that are Laws that govern the World, why would they and their derivatives be Concepts instead?

Answer : Spiritual Lifeforms are explicitly implied to have a Conceptual Self. Additionally, they are made of magicules , in other words, they are Magic itself, which itself is directly implied to be conceptual in nature and an idea.

 

[Incomprehensibleexistence]

Agree with everything

 

[CodeCCLL]

Additional Minor Upgrade
As we've discussed above how Magic is Conceptual in nature, True Dragons will have Abstract Existence (Type 1) even for their "Physical Bodies" which are made of Magic. To be honest I don't even get why it was Type 2 in the first place when "Physical" in-verse is not always referring to Physical in a Non-Abstract sense

I strongly disagree, magic or skills themselves are not type 1 concepts, they only have conceptual manipulation type 1, claiming that things made of magic are type 1 concepts is even much more ridiculous than the previously disproved claim that soul is a type 1 concept.

First, the Skill was accepted to have type 1 conceptual manipulation based on its power to manipulate World Laws, the skills themselves were never type 1 concepts so even if the soul is the source of the skills (soul is the source of skills refers to "skills are engraved in the soul" , so even if skills are a type 1 concept, the soul will not be a type 1 concept) Since skills are not concepts in the first place, the soul cannot be a type 1 concept.

Also, magic body is a temporary body to use interact with the material world made of magicules that have solidified and become physical, there is no way you can claim that it is not physical.

 

[Mizuki67]

I strongly disagree, magic or skills themselves are not type 1 concepts, they only have conceptual manipulation type 1, claiming that things made of magic are type 1 concepts is even much more ridiculous than the previously disproved claim that soul is a type 1 concept.

The concept 1 is mainly because magicules can still be usable in the subspace or eost just to be clear and they are unaffected at places were nothing exists. Just like spiritual lifeforms who had turned themselves into magic itself. Still, I think the points you brought up make some sense doe

 

[CodeCCLL]

The concept 1 is mainly because magicules can still be usable in the subspace or eost just to be clear and they are unaffected at places were nothing exists. Just like spiritual lifeforms who had turned themselves into magic itself. Still, I think the points you brought up make some sense doe

Magic itself isn't even a concept.

 

[Meli_Tempest]

Magic itself isn't even a concept.

I strongly disagree, magic or skills themselves are not type 1 concepts, they only have conceptual manipulation type 1, claiming that things made of magic are type 1 concepts is even much more ridiculous than the previously disproved claim that soul is a type 1 concept.

I agree that magic itself is not a concept as such and is only the means to manipulate them. But it is by no means physical, it is portrayed as an "idea" and forms spiritual life forms that have no physical weight in the world, if not abstract existence at least it is "incorporeality".

 

[Bernkastelll]

Agreed.

 

[CodeCCLL]

But it is by no means physical, it is portrayed as an "idea" and forms spiritual life forms that have no physical weight in the world, if not abstract existence at least it is "incorporeality".

The magical bodies of Spiritual Lifeforms consist of magicules that have solidified and taken on a physical form. It has already been stated that the magical body is used for Spiritual Lifeforms to interact with the physical world until they find a real physical body.

 

[Meli_Tempest]

The magical bodies of Spiritual Lifeforms consist of magicules that have solidified and taken on a physical form. It has already been stated that the magical body is used for Spiritual Lifeforms to interact with the physical world until they find a real physical body.

Even when crystallized and forming a "physical" body, it still counts for incorporeality.

Incorporeal (or Non-Corporeal) beings are those who have no true physical form. Though they may have physical avatars or bodies, but their true essence exists non-physically, whether as a soul, as energy, or as an abstract concept. Being incorporeal is very different than Intangibility, as an intangible being's body is their true body, it just can't be affected by conventional physical forces.

 

[Mizuki67]

I strongly disagree, magic or skills themselves are not type 1 concepts, they only have conceptual manipulation type 1, claiming that things made of magic are type 1 concepts is even much more ridiculous than the previously disproved claim that soul is a type 1 concept.

Okay, so you guys say skills aren't necessarily conceptual and they are only powers to manipulate concept of the world, but we still have this in Rimuru profile:

Abstract Existence (Types 1 & Information Type 2 - Rimuru has the Ultimate Skill 'Wisdom King Raphael' which is capable of acting on her own even when Rimuru is unconscious and, 'Raphael' is a skill made from Information, which is the fundamental aspect in Tensura.[29][30][25]) and as we all know even those who have an Ultimate Skill are unbounded by the laws of the world.

Thing is a skill in Tensura is an abstract form that normal people cant interact with the same goes to spiritual lifeforms. So, i dont understand how this stops them from being conceptual. That is the problem from my side

 

[Meli_Tempest]

Well you guys say skills aren't concept 1 but we still have this in Rimuru profile:

Abstract Existence (Types 1 & Information Type 2 - Rimuru has the Ultimate Skill 'Wisdom King Raphael' which is capable of acting on her own even when Rimuru is unconscious and, 'Raphael' is a skill made from Information, which is the fundamental aspect in Tensura.[29][30][25])

I didn't say that skills are not concepts, I'm just talking about magic.

 

[Mizuki67]

I didn't say that skills are not concepts, I'm just talking about magic.

Wrong reply

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I strongly disagree, magic or skills themselves are not type 1 concepts, they only have conceptual manipulation type 1, claiming that things made of magic are type 1 concepts is even much more ridiculous than the previously disproved claim that soul is a type 1 concept.

Magic itself isn't even a concept.

All this is already answered in the OP

but Magic is specifically stated to work conceptually, there is also the fact that Spiritual Lifeforms are made of Magicules as well

Spiritual Lifeforms are explicitly implied to have a Conceptual Self. Additionally, they are made of magicules , in other words, they are Magic itself, which itself is directly implied to be conceptual in nature and an idea.

Magic itself is something conceptual, SLFs are made of it too, and resultantly, they are incorporeal as well and cannot be harmed by physical means.
Its also stated that magic is an idea

Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept, thought, or information, and being immortal thanks to it. This power has a variety of uses, ranging from a high degree of control over the abstraction and its manifestations, the aforementioned immortality, or even being unaffected by abilities that can't target the abstraction.

Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

Incorporeal (or Non-Corporeal) beings are those who have no true physical form. Though they may have physical avatars or bodies, but their true essence exists non-physically, whether as a soul, as energy, or as an abstract concept. Being incorporeal is very different than Intangibility, as an intangible being's body is their true body, it just can't be affected by conventional physical forces.

And you of all people should very well know that the definition of "Physical" in TenSura is not normal at all. Incorporeal and spiritual things such as magicules or Spiritons are still counted as "Physical" by the fact that they hold true to the theory of relativity, yet they still show properties that only an abstract being should show

Not to mention, we are already giving Incorporeality to Magically made bodies in the Spiritual Lifeform page, which would contradict us giving Type 2 Abstract Existence to them instead of Type 1.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Magic

Magic affects concepts in the sense of being an idea used to influence the laws of the world, there is nothing to suggest that magic itself is conceptual.

Magic (an idea used to influence the laws of the world) and magicules (magical energy), are separate terms, in this context referring to the magical body of Spiritual Lifeforms made of magicules, also solifidy magicules are the fundamental block of all monsters. Spiritual Lifeforms, when they do not have a physical body, solidify their magical energy to form a magical body to temporarily interact with the world, and if they wish, they can make their magical body incorporeal again. (The scenes between Ultima and Diablo in the movie are the clearest example of this, as both Diablo and Ultima can become incorporeal/intangible and corporeal again with their magical bodies at will)

And you of all people should very well know that the definition of "Physical" in TenSura is not normal at all. Incorporeal and spiritual things such as magicules or Spiritons are still counted as "Physical" by the fact that they hold true to the theory of relativity, yet they still show properties that only an abstract being should show

Yes, Fuse sees everything that moves according to the laws of physics as physical, but this has nothing to do with the contexts here.

Not to mention, we are already giving Incorporeality to Magically made bodies in the Spiritual Lifeform page, which would contradict us giving Type 2 Abstract Existence to them instead of Type 1.

Spiritual Lifeforms page should be updated to Abstract Existence Type 1 (...) and 2 for the magical body composed of magical energy, that's all.

 

[Elizhaa]

The physical body unironically seemed non-physical; Rimuru did not really have it against in a monster. I mean there is like a skill that nullified all physical damage which seems to be showned as such attacks without magic or similar phasing through them: https://archive.ph/whZG1
Ifrit, technically while taking over Shizu's body and was technically corrupted by magic, was basically stated to invincible to such physical attacks from spiritual nature which could suggest that the phasing case could also have happen:
So, Ultima and Diablo's case, I do not think they necessarily turn out to be on their physical body per say rather than the such attack always being ineffective from their part.

Monster like ghosts exist and are nonphysical so the idea that magicules are always physical does not seems fully true.

I agree for the most part with the thread; abstract existence type 1 from magic could be right if their body are treated like thoughts or thoughtform from magic.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Monster like ghosts exist and are nonphysical so the idea that magicules are always physical does not seems fully true.

Of course, it is not always physical, according to what we are shown, they can turn their magical bodies, which have solidified again and interacted with the physical world, into pure magical energy if they wish.

I agree for the most part with the thread; abstract existence type 1 from magic could be right if their body are treated like thoughts or thoughtform from magic.

Although I am sure that magic, which is still an idea, is not the same as magical energy, Abstract Existence (Type 1 - Idea) from magic could be right if their body are treated like ideas or ideas form.

Rimuru did not really have it against in a monster.

Also, as far as I remember the manga, the being here is a Demon that is a Spiritual Lifeform, not an ordinary monster (when I talk about ordinary monsters, I only mean magic-born monsters).

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Although I am sure that magic, which is still an idea, is not the same as magical energy, Abstract Existence (Type 1 - Idea) from magic could be right if their body are treated like ideas or ideas form.

I think the fact that Veldora made a human body of pure thought could help, however, it does say the body is not Physical, and I'm unsure if the "physical" here was referring to physical in the sense of how Veldora inhabited Veldora's clone, something actually physical, or a "physical" body made of magicules

On a side note, It also seems that "many" monsters are basically constructs of magical energy, but that wouldn't mean all monsters apply to it. Which means while monsters are normally physical, it doesn't mean all monsters are truly physical either. For example, those Fire salamanders summoned by Ifrit would be spiritual

Of course, it is not always physical, according to what we are shown, they can turn their magical bodies, which have solidified again and interacted with the physical world, into pure magical energy if they wish.

We could also put the fact that they can interchange their magic-made bodies from completely physical[to interact with the physical world] and magical[like this] as them being able to interchange between Abstract Existence Type 1 and Type 2 [if that's a thing]

 

[CodeCCLL]

I think the fact that Veldora made a human body of pure thought could help, however, it does say the body is not Physical, and I'm unsure if the "physical" here was referring to physical in the sense of how Veldora inhabited Veldora's clone, something actually physical, or a "physical" body made of magicules

The fact that the thought form mentioned here is the spiritual body is much more consistent, considering that in Tensura, thoughts are also composed of information type 2, and the magical body used to interact with the material world is referred to as the physical body.

Additionally, I don't understand why Spiritual Life Forms, despite having metaphysical spiritual bodies, would need to use magical bodies, which you again claim are purely metaphysical, to physically interact with the material world; when Spiritual Life Forms don't already have a body of flesh or other physical matter, they use their magical energy to create magical bodies, so there must surely be a physical aspect to their magical bodies, which seems quite consistent with my idea that they can transform their pure magical energy into a solidified structure at will.

On a side note, It also seems that "many" monsters are basically constructs of magical energy, but that wouldn't mean all monsters apply to it. Which means while monsters are normally physical, it doesn't mean all monsters are truly physical either. For example, those Fire salamanders summoned by Ifrit would be spiritual

I'm aware of this, which is why I use the phrase ordinary monsters as I mentioned above.

We could also put the fact that they can interchange their magic-made bodies from completely physical[to interact with the physical world] and magical[like this] as them being able to interchange between Abstract Existence Type 1 and Type 2 [if that's a thing]

So, if at the end of the discussion the idea that magical bodies are originally metaphysical in origin is reached, it should be already like this.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

The fact that the thought form mentioned here is the spiritual body is much more consistent, considering that in Tensura, thoughts are also composed of information type 2, and the magical body used to interact with the material world is referred to as the physical body.

true that

Additionally, I don't understand why Spiritual Life Forms, despite having metaphysical spiritual bodies, would need to use magical bodies, which you again claim are purely metaphysical, to physically interact with the material world; when Spiritual Life Forms don't already have a body of flesh or other physical matter, they use their magical energy to create magical bodies, so there must surely be a physical aspect to their magical bodies, which seems quite consistent with my idea that they can transform their pure magical energy into a solidified structure at will.

Their magical body itself has limited impact on the physical world, its even stated these bodies are a spiritual existence
Note that this was before Testarossa had met Rimuru and acquired a physical body. Same for her subordinates

Although it does seem that part is true as well, in that they can give up their incarnated bodies[I suppose this is either referring to solidified magic bodies or actual physical bodies] and return to their spiritual form even in the material world, although that would limit their influence

I suppose this could be something like interchanging between Spiritual and Physical nature for their magic bodies, so we might need to give them[their magic bade bodies] both AE1 and AE2 with enough explanation

 

[Siru_Kyosha]

Agree