[R2M2] 2nd Crosstier Tournament - Azalea Aculeus vs. Delta (0-0-0)

[Rayfire]

I’ll probably genuinely leave this now since it’s grace in the emo stickman’s favor anyway, and by a lot lol, but i think this is the biggest debate we’ve gotten out of one of exsenna’s tourney’s apart from Akumo vs Frog, and big debates are always cool

 

[Phoenks]

Yeah, but Azalea seems to fight a lot of people with various high-level hax

Which is precisely why she would know when she needs to use her trump cards. She has experience. This is literally an advantage for her you are pointing out.

so unless she panics i doubt she’d open with that

Stop making assumptions about characters. It is getting extremely annoying. You've been doing this for both Azalea and Delta and it has made this entire discussion way longer than it needs to be.

I told you it is the most logical thing for her to do in that scenario.

but the same cannot be said for azalea

Another baseless claim that isn't true. Stop doing this.

even if she does open with Neptune’s gate, she’ll already be in quiet tomb and delta will be out of there in a flash to, at the very least, win by BFR. So either way azalea is gonna get caught by it.

More assumptions that the author of the character has not confirmed. Neptune's Gate can be activated the moment she is in Quiet Tomb as well. And would just counter BFR the guy and nullify the tomb simultaneously.

Restore could work in that case, but delta will just continue to use it and I doubt that skill is spammable, since azalea can run out of mana which can become deadly in a fight for her.

"doubt the skill is spammable"

I already told you this is why Refresh comes into play. It allows her to recover mana. You even posted the ability here.

Azalea’s resistance to power nullification is her resistance to “Null Magic”, which seems to just be attacks getting turned off, not it being physically overpowered by an attack far stronger than it, which is exactly the case here, since delta’s attacks are 3-A and Azalea’s are 6-B. Delta nullifies attacks by overpowering them in stats, which is exactly what will happen here.

Resistance to power nullification comes from Arkane Physiology which is soul based. He can not bypass that whatsoever because of what I've already stated about souls.

Where does the 5x speed boost come from, and why are you only bringing it up now? even then, delta can become even faster than that via this, so it wouldn’t matter:

Overdrive - A standard spell that boosts a target's parameters by five, being a temporary boost that leads to a rough crash after ten minutes.

Explain how several fold is better than 5x? A quantifiable number always beats an unquantifiable one.

Big freeze seems to disrupt mana, and is described as “killing magic”, but it doesn’t have much more detail than that, but even then, delta does a very similair thing by overpowering attacks physically, so that would just put them on equal footing.

Overpowering attacks is not the same thing.

Big Freeze is an AoE ice attack that freezes her surroundings instantaneously. If he is caught in the range, he dies.

She can use this instantly as the fight starts since the starting distance is 10m.

Neptunes gate hasn’t been shown to negate stats, just abilities according to it’s description, so with delta’s LS he could likely break out of it’s grip before it does anything and get back in the fight.

I literally told you in the same post that you can't break out of it physically and that it erases you.

Blood Bending doesn’t restrict abilities, or, well, brain function from how it’s described in the powers & abilities section, it just controls people’s physical movements, since all it does is “Manipulate bodily fluids” so if delta is being controlled, all he has to do is teleport out of azalea’s range, and would also be much better grounds for him to use quiet tomb and win if he doesn’t use it immediately like you’re trying to claim, even though Leo has said it’s something he uses extremely commonly regardless

She can literally just immediately kill him from the inside out via bending his blood. What are you talking about? He doesn't get the chance to teleport if she just pieces him up from the inside out.

You didn't even bother going into hydrokinesis either which is even more of a deadly win condition than that.

“Reality-bending illusions” is nothing very new to delta. He uses illusions and reality bending (warping space itself) himself too, so i doubt he’d be surprised or overwhelmed by something like that.

He doesn't resist illusions or reality bending so this is baseless and purely speculative.

Warping space also isn't equivalent to reality warping. So I don't know why that is a comparison at all.

I’m offering much more basis than just acrobatics or TP if you read what i just said earlier. Even if delta doesn’t use quiet tomb he can always teleport out of azalea’s range, which won’t allow her to hit him regardless of how acrobatic the dude’s she fights are, which can give delta plenty of time to attack outside her range to help him prevent her from reaching him, He can more than likely overpower azalea’s attacks to destroy them before they ever reach him, he can send azalea’s attacks through portals to somewhere they will never reach him, He can use his spatial manipulation to bounce them back, which, while azalea could probably negate it with restore, delta would just use it again, and azalea can’t spam moves, since it seems like grounds for her running out of mana, etc.

^ If i was just relying off his acrobatics and TP then nobody would have voted delta here, but look at what everyone is voting for

The moment the fight starts they are 10m apart and Azalea has multiple ways to end the fight in a moment's notice.

Delta does not have prior knowledge so stop acting like he knows every best move he has to do. I have said that Azalea has landed attacks on people with teleportation before.





To be real I am not finding this fun. I have disproven all the points made already like 10x in a row and right now I'm just repeating myself again and again. Voting based off a singular win-con that relies on luck and generosity is really disingenuous.

And the opposition against me isn't even the author of the character that is fighting my submission, and they continue to make these assumptions about both characters as though they own them. I don't appreciate that one bit at all.

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

And the opposition against me isn't even the author of the character that is fighting my submission, and they continue to make these assumptions about both characters as though they own them. I don't appreciate that one bit at all.

That's really funny considering this is coming from someone who didn't create their submission.

 

[Phoenks]

That's really funny considering this is coming from someone who didn't create their submission.

I am basing my argumentation on stuff the author has said as well as the archives I still have of her storylines. I also know a lot about the verse since... I made it.

It's not the same as what I feel some others are doing on this thread.

I wish you were more involved in the debate since this is your submission, rather than having others debate it for you.

 

[Rayfire]

To be real I am not finding this fun. I have disproven all the points made already like 10x in a row and right now I'm just repeating myself again and again. Voting based off a singular win-con that relies on luck and generosity is really disingenuous.

And the opposition against me isn't even the author of the character that is fighting my submission, and they continue to make these assumptions about both characters as though they own them. I don't appreciate that one bit at all.

I’ll just keep this short as i can.

If you disproved them, we wouldn’t be having this debate at all. Quiet tomb is delta’s only wincon, yes, but it is an ability that he uses very commonly, which has been clearly demonstrated in his matches and in his canon, and something that azalea would have no hope of escaping regardless of if she can survive or not. She can’t hope to kill delta when he uses this either, since he immediately teleports out. You kind of seem to forget that I’m repeating myself too here, lol. I’m not trying to assume anything, I’m just going off of everything i know and what’s been said during this debate, and those voting still haven’t retracted their votes despite what’s been said.

As for “baseless” assumptions…

Resistance to power nullification comes from Arkane Physiology which is soul based. He can not bypass that whatsoever because of what I've already stated about souls.

This part is assuming that power nullification resistance = your attacks not being destroyed by an opponent that can unleash attacks vigintillions of times more powerful than yours. Conventional and Unconventional resistances are a thing, lol

Neptune's Gate can be activated the moment she is in Quiet Tomb as well. And would just counter BFR the guy and nullify the tomb simultaneously.

This part is assuming that delta doesn’t immediately tp out once quiet tomb is activated, which is in-character for him according to Leo, which as i’ve already said makes the move basically useless, as it cannot reach him.

She can literally just immediately kill him from the inside out via bending his blood. What are you talking about? He doesn't get the chance to teleport if she just pieces him up from the inside out.

This part is assuming that it’s in-character for azalea to do that, which, according to the description, it isn’t. She just controls people with it, not kill them, which gives delta plenty of opportunity to get away. The rp’s for arkane collection are private i believe, so any evidence for her actually doing that is locked away

And the list goes on…

And the opposition against me isn't even the author of the character that is fighting my submission, and they continue to make these assumptions about both characters as though they own them. I don't appreciate that one bit at all.

You’re sort of doing the same at the moment for delta ^ And, well, grace has already been reached here anyway, lol, so why would you expect Leo himself to be here if the votes are 6-1 right now?

Not to be rude, obviously, but i think the vast majority are still going for a delta win here. If everybody was wrong i don’t think delta would have so many votes, since you’re undeniably a capable debater who’s been around for a while, but quiet tomb is the perfect counter here, and delta has his ways of defending against contact-death for at least a little while, and everybody agrees with that.

 

[Javenplayz253]

himself

*themselves

 

[Rayfire]

*themselves

Shut up goofy goober (mb lol)

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

I am basing my argumentation on stuff the author has said as well as the archives I still have of her storylines. I also know a lot about the verse since... I made it.

It's not the same as what I feel some others are doing on this thread.

I've shared a lot of this verse's story and events with the others who have been arguing. It's just like if a fanfiction that wasn't added by the creator was being debated by fans of said fanfiction. There'd be no problem with that.

I wish you were more involved in the debate since this is your submission, rather than having others debate it for you.

Once again, I never planned for this and I was fully ready to concede at the beginning, but if I could get a TL;DR on what has been discussed thus far, I could provide my own arguments.

 

[Phoenks]

If you disproved them, we wouldn’t be having this debate at all.

Not true. Just because something is still being debated doesn't mean that something hasn't been disproven.

Just because Flat Earthers continue to believe in flat earth, it doesn't mean they haven't constantly been disproven, for example.

Quiet tomb is delta’s only wincon, yes, but it is an ability that he uses very commonly, which has been clearly demonstrated in his matches and in his canon, and something that azalea would have no hope of escaping regardless of if she can survive or not.

Except I've given multiple ways for her to
A. End the fight before she uses that.
B. End the fight the moment she uses that.

You kind of seem to forget that I’m repeating myself too here, lol. I’m not trying to assume anything, I’m just going off of everything i know and what’s been said during this debate, and those voting still haven’t retracted their votes despite what’s been said.

You are repeating things that I've already countered lol.

This part is assuming that power nullification resistance = your attacks not being destroyed by an opponent that can unleash attacks vigintillions of times more powerful than yours. Conventional and Unconventional resistances are a thing, lol

What are you on about here?

The thing we were talking about was the Quiet Tombs ability to shatter retaliation against it. That's power nullification.

Azalea resist that by virtue of her skill being stored inside the soul, and thus not being able to be nullified unless an attack can bypass her soul defense.

Delta has no means to do that so her attack will not be shattered.

Not sure what this is about.

This part is assuming that delta doesn’t immediately tp out once quiet tomb is activated, which is in-character for him according to Leo, which as i’ve already said makes the move basically useless, as it cannot reach him.

When did Leo even confirm that? Furthermore, instant vs instant is inconclusive.

This part is assuming that it’s in-character for azalea to do that, which, according to the description, it isn’t. She just controls people with it, not kill them, which gives delta plenty of opportunity to get away. The rp’s for arkane collection are private i believe, so any evidence for her actually doing that is locked away

It is possible for her to do that though. Though if you want something even worse that is most definitely in character. Just read the death manipulation on her page, which is via her hydrokinetic ability.

You’re sort of doing the same at the moment for delta ^ And, well, grace has already been reached here anyway, lol, so why would you expect Leo himself to be here if the votes are 6-1 right now?

I am not doing the same thing though I've explained how this is different.


Also, I don't really care about the vote count I care about the legitimacy of the points being made. Appealing to people who just came in and voted while the debate had barely started doesn't make your ideas any more valid than what I am saying.

If everybody was wrong i don’t think delta would have so many votes, since you’re undeniably a capable debater who’s been around for a while, but quiet tomb is the perfect counter here, and delta has his ways of defending against contact-death for at least a little while, and everybody agrees with that.

I don't agree with that and nobody has provided a reason for me to agree with that because I've repeatedly explained that Azalea has fought people who have far superior combative skills.

 

[Rayfire]

Also, I don't really care about the vote count I care about the legitimacy of the points being made. Appealing to people who just came in and voted while the debate had barely started doesn't make your ideas any more valid than what I am saying.

Well, I’m sure 3 page’s worth should count as “legitimate” debates and points. Almost nobody came in randomly and voted based on what everyone else was either. They were talking the whole time I did drop in, but i came in and gave a brief description/justification on why i was voting for delta, and javen seems to have been reading everything we’re saying given that he’s read my post (and saw my typo lol) and he still hasn’t retracted his vote. Neither has anyone else.

I don't agree with that and nobody has provided a reason for me to agree with that because I've repeatedly explained that Azalea has fought people who have far superior combative skills.

Yeah, but everyone else seems to at the moment. Just because azalea has fought superior people skill-wise does not equal counter to quiet tomb, nor does it mean she could just win effortlessly, lol, delta has his ways to defend, even if it’s just for a little bit given the skill difference. But any time at all means an activation of quiet tomb given how often he uses it.

If you want to go that route, everyone (mostly me, but they haven’t retracted their votes once again) has also repeatedly explained why azalea is kind of screwed once quiet tomb comes into play, and that’s normal for debates. Just because someone has a view on something does not mean everyone will agree with them, and that’s just human nature. You’re acting as if everyone agreeing that someone’s character beats yours is abnormal or something, not to be mean obviously, just thought I’d point it out.

 

[Rayfire]

Not true. Just because something is still being debated doesn't mean that something hasn't been disproven.

So does that mean grass is not green, or that the sky doesn’t exist? I know a lot of crazy people will probably debate those, Lol. Debates don’t ever really come to a true conclusion, it’s moreso the result of what everyone decides is the most logical outcome, like on this site or this thread.

 

[Rayfire]

Except I've given multiple ways for her to
A. End the fight before she uses that.
B. End the fight the moment she uses that.

Except everyone has also given delta ways for him to
A. Defend long enough before he uses quiet tomb, even if it’s a small amount of time for if he doesn’t use it immediately
B. Just… teleport away right after before azalea can do anything to him in there and call it gg, lol

 

[Phoenks]

I will reiterate again that every point you made as to him defending against Azalea requires you to be incredibly generous to him while pretty much disregarding Azalea's own merit.

If you agree Azalea is more skilled, has fought people with the same abilities, and has landed hits on people with more extreme abilities, then there is no logical argument as to why his "defense" beats her offense.

You are arguing that she loses because he can defend before she hits him because of

• Teleportation (Something that is one of the most basic skills in the Ark Collection at that time that she has been met with multiple times)
• Acrobatics (Just to give you an idea of what I am talking about, one of the people on her team (Koji Komatsu) has a fighting style revolving around him break dancing around people that can see the future through sheer skill as a method of fighting)
• Flight (Another ability that is one of the most basic in the Ark Collection)
• Spatial Manipulation (Does nothing because of restore)
• Gravity Manipulation (Does nothing because of restore)

It just doesn't hold up that she somehow, miraculously, doesn't hit him.

Meanwhile, I will again reiterate everything you have not managed to counter.

• Azalea winning the fight on the spot via Big Freeze, which could instantly freeze the entire area around her the moment the fight begins.
• Hydrokinesis, which could be used to draw out water from his body via telekinesis over water. One version of this manifesting in blood bending.
• ANY water attack, as her water attacks inflict biological manipulation and corrosion on a level that would surely kill him due to his lacking resistances.

I also just realized Azalea would essentially Observe the fact that she is fighting someone who is 3-A. So honestly I could see her starting with Neptune's Gate right off the bat lol. Especially since they are so close at the start of the match.

And if she doesn't use it then she obviously would use it after being teleported to the middle of a vacuum. It counters the guy's only method of winning.

 

[Rayfire]

Teleportation (Something that is one of the most basic skills in the Ark Collection at that time that she has been met with multiple times)

I get that it’s something azalea has seen before, but This part is moreso a usage of defense on delta’s end. Think about this for one second. All delta has to do is to out of azaleas comparatively limited range, and her attacks are useless, experience with it or not. This goes things like big freeze which is why it’s out of the question.

• Spatial Manipulation (Does nothing because of restore)
• Gravity Manipulation (Does nothing because of restore)

Azalea can’t spam restore either of those, especially since delta can just use them again. It’s not like it turns his abilities off outright. and even if she could, it would just annoy delta and prompt him to activate quiet tomb faster, which is exactly how he’ll win here, so it’s just counter-intuitive for azalea to do this

Acrobatics (Just to give you an idea of what I am talking about, one of the people on her team (Koji Komatsu) has a fighting style revolving around him break dancing around people that can see the future through sheer skill as a method of fighting)

Correct me if I’m wrong or if I’m missing something, but just because she’s allies with someone who has that sort of acrobatics doesn’t necessarily mean she is automatically comparable. Heck, she doesn’t even have acrobatics of any kind on her profile after briefly checking, so would she even have the same level of agility or accuracy for herself and her attacks?

Flight seems fair, though that does still give delta a slightly better chance with more room to move.

Azalea winning the fight on the spot via Big Freeze, which could instantly freeze the entire area around her the moment the fight begins.

Delta resists extreme cold, so the freezing part would hardly anything, plus, delta has fire manipulation to counter that and melt it, which should be superior or at least comparable to stickman hero’s, which is 15,000,000 degrees, as well as his teleportation to just get out of its range before it does anything.

Hydrokinesis, which could be used to draw out water from his body via telekinesis over water. One version of this manifesting in blood bending.

Delta has Type 2 Immortality, and he is stated to be able to live forever as long as he isn’t killed, plus, he has water manipulation of his own, and given the massive LS advantage he has it wouldn’t be too surprising to see him overpower azalea’s hydrokensis and stop that from happening to begin with, lol

ANY water attack, as her water attacks inflict biological manipulation and corrosion on a level that would surely kill him due to his lacking resistances.

This part is true, obviously, but it requires being able to hit delta, which would be hard if he just… teleports out of range as soon as he see’s her attacking, plus, his numerous ways to defend could let him hold out for a bit. I’m not saying forever, obviously, but delta is no slouch when it comes to weaving and defending when he’s superior to everyone in his verse, only rivalled by Stickman Hero, plus he can always blast back and destroy some of azalea’s own attacks, which would make it much harder to hit him with less attacks able to reach him. Teleportation or not, I’m sure he could hold out long enough before he thinks to use quiet tomb.

I also just realized Azalea would essentially Observe the fact that she is fighting someone who is 3-A. So honestly I could see her starting with Neptune's Gate right off the bat lol. Especially since they are so close at the start of the match.

And if she doesn't use it then she obviously would use it after being teleported to the middle of a vacuum. It counters the guy's only method of winning.

Yeah, but Neptune’s gate doesn’t negate stats, just abilities according to its description on azalea’s page, so delta would sort of just… break out of its grip effortlessly, lol. It also doesn’t erase it’s targets until AFTER they are pulled into it too, so good luck trying to get rid of delta that way

Delta immediately teleports out of it according to Leo as I’ve already said before, though, so she simply wouldn’t be able to use it before he escapes and leaves her to rot there.

 

[Rayfire]

@ExSENNA If you’re wondering, grace has been reached in delta’s favor already, although it might have gotten buried in this pile of aftermath replies, lol

 

[Phoenks]

Ray fire you've made multiple of the same errors again. I've explained these abilities to you so many times it's becoming tiresome to have to go in again and explain them.

Like I literally told you that Neptune's Gate is not something you can physically break free from. So I don't know why you keep repeating this LS argument as if it matters.

I also told you that restore IS spammable because of Refresh, which recovers mana.

Correct me if I’m wrong or if I’m missing something, but just because she’s allies with someone who has that sort of acrobatics doesn’t necessarily mean she is automatically comparable. Heck, she doesn’t even have acrobatics of any kind on her profile after briefly checking, so would she even have the same level of agility or accuracy for herself and her attacks?

That's not the point. I'm not saying she has acrobatics on his level. The point is there are people with insane acrobatics and skills in the series that she fights against all the time.

Delta resists extreme cold, so the freezing part would hardly anything, plus, delta has fire manipulation to counter that and melt it, which should be superior or at least comparable to stickman hero’s, which is 15,000,000 degrees, as well as his teleportation to just get out of its range before it does anything.

His extreme cold seems to come from space, rather than from something like ice. The two aren't comparable since space doesn't have nearly as fast of a heat transfer rate.

Which is why on the Space Survival vsbw page resisting space cold is a limited resistance.

Delta has Type 2 Immortality, and he is stated to be able to live forever as long as he isn’t killed, plus, he has water manipulation of his own, and given the massive LS advantage he has it wouldn’t be too surprising to see him overpower azalea’s hydrokensis and stop that from happening to begin with, lol

He doesn't have the NPI required to interact with her magic. And type 2 immortality isn't going to cover his body losing all its water content.

This part is true, obviously, but it requires being able to hit delta, which would be hard if he just… teleports out of range as soon as he see’s her attacking, plus, his numerous ways to defend could let him hold out for a bit. I’m not saying forever, obviously, but delta is no slouch when it comes to weaving and defending when he’s superior to everyone in his verse, only rivalled by Stickman Hero, plus he can always blast back and destroy some of azalea’s own attacks, which would make it much harder to hit him with less attacks able to reach him. Teleportation or not, I’m sure he could hold out long enough before he thinks to use quiet tomb.

Which means you are betting on him not being hit by an opponent who is superior to him and who has hit people with better skills.

Do you not see how this is absurdly generous to one character while practically devaluing the other?

 

[Rayfire]

Like I literally told you that Neptune's Gate is not something you can physically break free from. So I don't know why you keep repeating this LS argument as if it matters.

Then why isn’t it listed on the it’s section in the skills page then? Surely that’d be a noteworthy detail i’d need to know, but it’s not there strangely enough. Arkane collection doesn’t have a source material i can see so i can’t really fact-check it for myself

I also told you that restore IS spammable because of Refresh, which recovers mana.

Then what’s the point of one of azalea’s weaknesses being running out of mana if she can just recover it whenever? That doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me, lol

That's not the point. I'm not saying she has acrobatics on his level. The point is there are people with insane acrobatics and skills in the series that she fights against all the time.

That’s fair, but does she do so effortlessly? If she struggles to keep up with people that Koji casually dances around according to you in this case AT ALL, delta could pose a problem for her given his feats, even if he’s inferior to some of the best that azalea has faced, given that the opponents Koji goes up against seem to be typically “unhittable” guys because of their abilities, which delta is superior due to scaling from stickman hero, at least in terms of movement. This is especiwlly since she doesn’t seem to be used to fighting on her own, given that she describes herself as a “support member” of her team. And this is further shown with this statement in her weaknesses section:

• Azalea's offensive arsenal is slacking as she is mostly a support mage.

So she doesn’t even have as much upfront combat experience compared to other members of her team, which makes catching delta even more improbable.

His extreme cold seems to come from space, rather than from something like ice. The two aren't comparable since space doesn't have nearly as fast of a heat transfer rate.

Which is why on the Space Survival vsbw page resisting space cold is a limited resistance.

Even still, any cold resistance is gonna help him significantly with ice, so i don’t think it matters much, lol

He doesn't have the NPI required to interact with her magic. And type 2 immortality isn't going to cover his body losing all its water content.

Fair, but delta can also just teleport out of her range to cut her off before she can take any significant amount of it, and would also encourage him to use quiet tomb even more, so it’d most likely end up being counter-intuitive for azalea given she’d literally be pushing him towards one of his wincons, lol

Which means you are betting on him not being hit by an opponent who is superior to him and who has hit people with better skills.

Do you not see how this is absurdly generous to one character while practically devaluing the other?

View what i asked about acrobatics above ^ I’m not trying to devalue azalea at all, and neither is anyone else. Otherwise i wouldn’t even take this seriously or consider her wincons or anything, it’s just that delta has ways to survive long enough to activate quiet tomb (assuming he doesn’t use it off the bat) especially with azalea’s very limited range and seemingly inexperience with fighting on her own effectively. I doubt any “de-valuing” is going on if everyone collectively agrees on this

And i find it unlikely that i could devalue such a character anyway, lol, it’s just that delta, once again, has methods to win of his own and methods to defend himself against azalea long enough to activate it, which is why everybody has voted delta here. I get it if you find it absurd that everyone agrees with a delta W here, but you can’t win every debate. No character is truly invincible.

 

[Phoenks]

Then why isn’t it listed on the it’s section in the skills page then? Surely that’d be a noteworthy detail i’d need to know, but it’s not there strangely enough. Arkane collection doesn’t have a source material i can see so i can’t really fact-check it for myself

It's magic and Delta lacks NPI. This is self explanatory.

Then what’s the point of one of azalea’s weaknesses being running out of mana if she can just recover it whenever? That doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me, lol

Idk either. I didn't make the page.

That’s fair, but does she do so effortlessly? If she struggles to keep up with people that Koji casually dances around according to you in this case AT ALL, delta could pose a problem for her given his feats, even if he’s inferior to some of the best that azalea has faced, given that the opponents Koji goes up against seem to be typically “unhittable” guys because of their abilities, which delta is superior due to scaling from stickman hero, at least in terms of movement. This is especiwlly since she doesn’t seem to be used to fighting on her own, given that she describes herself as a “support member” of her team. And this is further shown with this statement in her weaknesses section:

• Azalea's offensive arsenal is slacking as she is mostly a support mage.

So she doesn’t even have as much upfront combat experience compared to other members of her team, which makes catching delta even more improbable.

Azalea being referred to as slacking in offense arsenal is in comparison to other characters in the Ark Collection and her team.

Mind you, the offensive people on her team can cut time itself, sever people from the time stream, and other nonsense like thst. So yeah in comparison to that she's not as insane, but that doesn't really matter when she's fighting someone with only 1 useful hax ability.

Fair, but delta can also just teleport out of her range to cut her off before she can take any significant amount of it, and would also encourage him to use quiet tomb even more, so it’d most likely end up being counter-intuitive for azalea given she’d literally be pushing him towards one of his wincons, lol

Why assume that she'd give him the time to react? She's up against someone she knows is immeasurably more powerful than her. She's going to go for the kill immediately.


I wouldn't mind if I thought the winning condition for a character was more logical and legitimate, but I don't agree at all with the conclusions being drawn by you in this match. So of course I don't agree with this outcome and I'll continue to debate it..

 

[Rayfire]

Azalea being referred to as slacking in offense arsenal is in comparison to other characters in the Ark Collection and her team.

Mind you, the offensive people on her team can cut time itself, sever people from the time stream, and other nonsense like thst. So yeah in comparison to that she's not as insane, but that doesn't really matter when she's fighting someone with only 1 useful hax ability.

I wouldn’t necessarily say only 1 given what’s been said. Going beyond just quiet tomb, He has stat amps plus spirit of battle to become faster than azalea, can basically make 5 skeletons that have all of his abilities to make it harder for azalea to avoid hits herself, his teleportation can be his saving grace in a lot of situations, the list goes on.

So if azalea isn’t nearly as acrobatic/accurate/skilled as Koji or others in her team, then she’d likely struggle here given that delta is superior to people like stickman hero who are “unhittable” even without any precognitive abilities, which is something that’s way more koji’s territory of handling and less of azalea’s. Given his other ways to defend here as well, like sending her attacks through portals if he can’t just cancel them like normal, i think once again delta should be able to last long enough to activate quiet tomb if he doesn’t get it off right away.

Why assume that she'd give him the time to react? She's up against someone she knows is immeasurably more powerful than her. She's going to go for the kill immediately.

I doubt she could just get rid of all of the water in his body straight away. Otherwise she could do this for literally any of her opponents in canon whenever she needed a surefire win, lol, And delta can instantly teleport, so there’s no guarantee he’d die even if azalea can pull it off in a very small timeframe.

I wouldn't mind if I thought the winning condition for a character was more logical and legitimate, but I don't agree at all with the conclusions being drawn by you in this match. So of course I don't agree with this outcome and I'll continue to debate it..

I mean, you’re literally a huge contributor to ark collection i believe, so of course you wouldn’t agree with a loss easily regardless of what’s said, lol. That happens.

But it’s not just me drawing this conclusion. It’s everyone else involved. And in saying that, all the non-creators of both verses go for a delta W here. There’s been a clear discussion as well, especially now lol, so i think we’re clear of ending the thread too soon too. The debate’s also technically over now because of the votes anyway, so i think this’ll move on fairly soon

 

[Phoenks]

I wouldn’t necessarily say only 1 given what’s been said. Going beyond just quiet tomb, He has stat amps plus spirit of battle to become faster than azalea, can basically make 5 skeletons that have all of his abilities to make it harder for azalea to avoid hits herself, his teleportation can be his saving grace in a lot of situations, the list goes on.

You never even went into how it would be faster than azalea. It seems of be an unquantifiable amp which is worse than a stated 5x amp.

So if azalea isn’t nearly as acrobatic/accurate/skilled as Koji or others in her team, then she’d likely struggle here given that delta is superior to people like stickman hero who are “unhittable” even without any precognitive abilities, which is something that’s way more koji’s territory and less of azalea’s. Given his other ways to defend here as well, like sending her attacks through portals if he can’t just cancel them like normal, i think once again delta should be able to last long enough to activate quiet tomb if he doesn’t get it off right away.

Azalea not being as skilled as other parts of her team doesn't mean much for Delta though.

The fact that she has dealt with skilled opponents is what matters.

Being "unhittable" is a very bad NLF obviously and doesn't really mean anything.

doubt she could just get rid of all of the water in his body straight away. Otherwise she could do this for literally any of her opponents in canon whenever she needed a surefire win, lol, And delta can instantly teleport, so there’s no guarantee he’d die even if azalea can pull it off in a very small timeframe.

The difference is that people in Ark tend to resist instant kill moves like that. Or simply have way better counters to them.

(Which is why the Arkane Resistance section ends up being pretty long. And I still need to update it).

I mean, you’re literally a huge contributor to ark collection i believe, so of course you wouldn’t agree with a loss easily regardless of what’s said, lol. That happens.

But it’s not just me drawing this conclusion. It’s everyone else involved. And in saying that, all the non-creators of both verses go for a delta W here. There’s been a clear discussion as well, especially now lol, so i think we’re clear of ending the thread too soon too. The debate’s also technically over now because of the votes anyway, so i think this’ll move on fairly soon

Nobody else in this match, not even the person who submitted the character, has debated me one on one to this extent. And they all voted before any real debate started.

And from the very beginning of this match I was having to clear up many misconceptions, even down to having to say that water (Hydrogen 2 Oxygen) has oxygen in it. I don't think it has been a very clear discussion because of things like this constantly happening.


You have also misrepresented Azalea's abilities a number of times in order to make points . . .

 

[Rayfire]

You never even went into how it would be faster than azalea. It seems of be an unquantifiable amp which is worse than a stated 5x amp.

“Several” typically starts at 3-4x, plus spirit of battle can amplify by an unquantifiable amount, so it’s pure logic that it’s most likely higher than 5x, lol, even if it isn’t, delta has adaptation to get more powerful overtime any way, so it wouldn’t matter

Azalea not being as skilled as other parts of her team doesn't mean much for Delta though.

The fact that she has dealt with skilled opponents is what matters.

Being "unhittable" is a very bad NLF obviously and doesn't really mean anything.

Yes, but she couldn’t have done so easily like Koji does. If she struggles even slightly against barely hittable or unhittable opponents like that then delta should be comparable to them at the very least, so he could definitely buy himself some time to activate quiet tomb if he didn’t do so immediately

By that logic, you could say the same thing for Koji bypassing literal future sense powers with only skill, though, seems like a bit much in terms of pure fighting experience

The difference is that people in Ark tend to resist instant kill moves like that. Or simply have way better counters to them.

(Which is why the Arkane Resistance section ends up being pretty long. And I still need to update it).

That doesn’t mean delta couldn’t escape from it, though. Teleporting or using quiet tomb is his saving grace for situations like this, which is why this isn’t a stomp lol

Nobody else in this match, not even the person who submitted the character, has debated me one on one to this extent. And they all voted before any real debate started.

And from the very beginning of this match I was having to clear up many misconceptions, even down to having to say that water (Hydrogen 2 Oxygen) has oxygen in it. I don't think it has been a very clear discussion because of things like this constantly happening.

Is 2 whole pages worth really not enough? Even so, if it was that simple. i wonder why i haven’t found myself completely stumped yet

You have also misrepresented Azalea's abilities a number of times in order to make points . . .

So have you. You don’t seem to have read the spirit of battle page to see the massive stat amps and adaptation they get to see that it could surpass azalea’s amps on top of their at least 3x one.

And you’ve also downplayed Quiet tomb quite a lot yourself, ignoring the insane LS of the skeleton that will just hold azalea down in the quiet tomb for eternity if she doesn’t somehow die eventually, which restore won’t fix for longer than an instant thanks to the gravity manip range of it, and plus her lack of self-sustenance and adequate radiation manipulation. Sure, arkanes live with dozens of times more radiation than humans irl do, but they haven’t been shown to resist being exposed to that radiation in it’s full, or at least azalea herself (AKA, above the atmosphere) according to the information on the Arkane physiology page, plus quiet tomb has enough radiation to instantly turn you to dust. (Which I’m not sure is a byproduct of the radiation or not, but if azalea doesn’t have resistance to that either it will also be a factor.)

 

[MintyBoi1]

Azalea not being as skilled as other parts of her team doesn't mean much for Delta though.

The fact that she has dealt with skilled opponents is what matters.

Being "unhittable" is a very bad NLF obviously and doesn't really mean anything.



The difference is that people in Ark tend to resist instant kill moves like that. Or simply have way better counters to them.

(Which is why the Arkane Resistance section ends up being pretty long. And I still need to update it).




Nobody else in this match, not even the person who submitted the character, has debated me one on one to this extent. And they all voted before any real debate started.

And from the very beginning of this match I was having to clear up many misconceptions, even down to having to say that water (Hydrogen 2 Oxygen) has oxygen in it. I don't think it has been a very clear discussion because of things like this constantly happening.


You have also misrepresented Azalea's abilities a number of times in order to make points . . .

If we can use Koji’s great acrobatics, I think SMH being practically untouchable is a fair point. Since he’s stated to be that good at evasion and has other statements around him, it’s clear he’s also a highly skilled opponent. So Delta has dealt with great opponents as well and has far better evasive abilities to work in his favor. Even if Azalea can deal with those, with him almost immediately using Quiet Tomb, she wouldn’t get much of a chance to capitalize. And the skeleton seems like an instant no escape with Azalea lacking LS or transportation to escape and self-sustenance for whenever she is out of water. If Delta leaves her stranded, that’s an easy win. I don’t see how Recover helps when it just returns her to a previous state, the skeleton will still be there.

I was under the impression that Azalea starts with her basic water attacks. Delta having ways to cope with her most likely option and segway into his is the basis of his win con. Even if Azalea could use other wins to kill him at the start, those seem unlikely. Also just how do you resist something like that? And looking back at Delta’s page, he not only has stat amps but speed reducting aura which’ll work at this range. He can also warp space which’ll help further to cope with Azalea’s water.

What do you consider real debate? I went through a plethora of options and abilities for both and gave Delta a win con. I consider that very real. And with a character as stuffed with content as Azalea that you yourself have had misconceptions about, you can’t entirely blame me for forgetting one detail.

 

[Rayfire]

Do you not see how this is absurdly generous to one character while practically devaluing the other?

Actually, now that i think about it, I’ve been pretty nice to azalea most of the time by being willing to go through any potential wincons she could get off if delta somehow didn’t use quiet tomb off the bat/extremely early in the fight, instead of being realistic and saying that because he’d do that, everything else doesn’t matter. Meanwhile you didn’t seem to be actively considering it yourself just then, so I’m not sure what you mean by saying that I’m apparently being this incredibly super dooper biased dude, lol

 

[Phoenks]

Actually, now that i think about it, I’ve been pretty nice to azalea most of the time by being willing to go through any potential wincons she could get off if delta somehow didn’t use quiet tomb off the bat/extremely early in the fight, instead of being realistic and saying that because he’d do that, everything else doesn’t matter. Meanwhile you didn’t seem to be actively considering it yourself just then, so I’m not sure what you mean by saying that I’m apparently being this incredibly super dooper biased dude, lol

I at this point in the match have countered every single point brought up though. I am not sure what you mean by this.

Also, you haven't been generous to Azalea at all.

Donno how many times I have to mentioned this but you are voting that Azalea never lands a single hit on Delta which is ridiculous.

 

[ExSENNA]

Geez what happened here with over 100 messages

 

[Phoenks]

“Several” typically starts at 3-4x, plus spirit of battle can amplify by an unquantifiable amount, so it’s pure logic that it’s most likely higher than 5x, lol, even if it isn’t, delta has adaptation to get more powerful overtime any way, so it wouldn’t matter

5x beats several and worse case scenario Azalea just ties their stats using Hold your head high.

Yes, but she couldn’t have done so easily like Koji does. If she struggles even slightly against barely hittable or unhittable opponents like that then delta should be comparable to them at the very least, so he could definitely buy himself some time to activate quiet tomb if he didn’t do so immediately

By that logic, you could say the same thing for Koji bypassing literal future sense powers with only skill, though, seems like a bit much in terms of pure fighting experience

By what logic? I said being unhittable is NLF. You have to be more specific than that for it to mean anything. Who considers them unhittable? Why is that important or valuable to the conversation?

That doesn’t mean delta couldn’t escape from it, though. Teleporting or using quiet tomb is his saving grace for situations like this, which is why this isn’t a stomp lol

Neptune's Gate counters Quiet Tomb.

And you’ve also downplayed Quiet tomb quite a lot yourself, ignoring the insane LS of the skeleton that will just hold azalea down in the quiet tomb for eternity if she doesn’t somehow die eventually, which restore won’t fix for longer than an instant thanks to the gravity manip range of it, and plus her lack of self-sustenance and adequate radiation manipulation. Sure, arkanes live with dozens of times more radiation than humans irl do, but they haven’t been shown to resist being exposed to that radiation in it’s full, or at least azalea herself (AKA, above the atmosphere) according to the information on the Arkane physiology page, plus quiet tomb has enough radiation to instantly turn you to dust. (Which I’m not sure is a byproduct of the radiation or not, but if azalea doesn’t have resistance to that either it will also be a factor.)

Water counters radiation and allows her to sustain herself.

Arkanes should also have better radiation resistance scaling from resisting Paraco's aura but I haven't updated it yet.

Lifting strength indeed doesn't really matter since it won't be deadly. She can also just continually dodge attacks dished out at her by instinctively turning into water.

Btw idk why we are even discussing that. I already told you Neptune's Gate gets activated upon the activation of Quiet Tomb, or even at the beginning of the fight.

 

[Rayfire]

I at this point in the match have countered every single point brought up though. I am not sure what you mean by this.

Also, you haven't been generous to Azalea at all.

Donno how many times I have to mentioned this but you are voting that Azalea never lands a single hit on Delta which is ridiculous.

Yeah, but so have we. That’s the whole point of a debate.

Why not? I was fully willing to go through her wincons and debate them with you instead of jumping to the most realistic case, which is delta using quiet tomb, and willingly assuming he wouldn’t use it basically straight away before azalea can do land a hit. I think that’s pretty generous compared to trying to claim that you’ve “countered” everything the other character could do without even glancing at their trump card that they canonically use very often in-character

I have a basis for it, though. As minty as substantiated, using Koji as a measuring stick, scaling above someone who is skilled enough to be described as “unhittable” is a good reason for delta being able to avoid azalea’s attacks, especially since azalea isn’t even suited to an offense role like you’ve said, nor is she used to fighting on her own and relying on her team members for defense, lol.

By what logic? I said being unhittable is NLF. You have to be more specific than that for it to mean anything. Who considers them unhittable? Why is that important or valuable to the conversation?

If saying someone being “unhittable” is NLF, then someone bypassing future seeing powers with skill alone can also qualify for that.

Neptune's Gate counters Quiet Tomb.

Not when the skeleton restrains azalea and delta teleports out straight away before she can use it. Even if she uses it as soon as she’s in, delta also teleports out of quiet tomb at the same time, so it doesn’t mean anything. Why are you ignoring this?

Water counters radiation and allows her to sustain herself.

Arkanes should also have better radiation resistance scaling from resisting Paraco's aura but I haven't updated it yet.

Lifting strength indeed doesn't really matter since it won't be deadly. She can also just continually dodge attacks dished out at her by instinctively turning into water.

Btw idk why we are even discussing that. I already told you Neptune's Gate gets activated upon the activation of Quiet Tomb, or even at the beginning of the fight.

Azalea eventually runs out of water though, doesn’t she? According to this study, you need a wall of 13.8 feet, or a solid 4.2 metre thick wall of water just to defend against TYPICAL radiation, and the radiation in quiet tomb is far, far above that. So azalea will have to be consuming a whole lot of water and mana to shield herself with that much water omnidirectionally, and also to upkeep it constantly, which isn’t something that will last forever, and even if she can do that for a week straight, it means delta still wins via BFR.

Her turning into water won’t affect the gravity manipulation holding her down, though, so she’d just make herself more vulnerable to the skeleton, lol

Delta can always teleport out of range if he doesn’t have time to throw her in quiet tomb and escape if she did that, plus he could always send the chain through a portal never to be seen again, and in the case of quiet tomb delta also simultaneously teleports away, so the chain of it wouldn’t reach him before that happens, simply as that.

 

[Rayfire]

Geez what happened here with over 100 messages

Mayhem

Oh, in case it got buried (again) it’s 6 votes in delta’s favor and 1 in azalea’s, so the match is over lol

 

[Phoenks]

If saying someone being “unhittable” is NLF, then someone bypassing future seeing powers with skill alone can also qualify for that.

This isn't true and this is the crux of the reason why I don't like this debate.

These aren't comparable statements.

Saying someone is "unhittable" with no further elaborate is NLF as you don't know the limits or basis of the statement.

Saying someone is skilled enough to acrobat around skilled based future sight outlines a clear indication of the overall skill level implied and thus the meaning behind the statement. It isn't NLF.

Not when the skeleton restrains azalea

Restore bypasses this nor does restraining her do anything to Neptune's Gate.

delta teleports out straight away before she can use it.

Instant vs instant is inconclusive. I said this way back as well. I never ignored it.

Azalea eventually runs out of water though, doesn’t she?

Not really since refresh spam exists.

Delta can always teleport out of range if he doesn’t have time to throw her in quiet tomb and escape if she did that, plus he could always send the chain through a portal never to be seen again, and in the case of quiet tomb delta also simultaneously teleports away, so the chain of it wouldn’t reach him before that happens, simply as that.

Assuming he doesn't die to any of my multiple listed instant win conditions for Azalea which... still haven't been dismissed.


To win this fight, Delta must dodge every one of Azalea's attacks, activate Quiet Tomb, and instantly escape Quiet Tomb. And even this could STILL result in a drawn result at the end of the day due to Neptune's Trident.

To win this fight, Azalea could land any water attack, kill him with any Hydrokinesis attack, use any freezing skill, or open Neptune's Gate... all are in-character.

Azaleas win-cons are so much more clear and require vastly less generous assumptions...

 

[MintyBoi1]

Doesn’t Azalea winning assume she hits Delta before he just says screw it and leaves her in another dimension? I don’t think it’s guaranteed, but it sure is a lot less difficult than what Azalea has to do in a short time. A lot of Azalea’s win cons require ample time to use the abilities which she just won’t get unless she opens with them which given how she’s been argued for this whole time seems unlikely. Leo said Delta uses it quickly, so that’s pretty much game over for Water Girl.

 

[Phoenks]

Doesn’t Azalea winning assume she hits Delta before he just says screw it and leaves her in another dimension? I don’t think it’s guaranteed, but it sure is a lot less difficult than what Azalea has to do in a short time. A lot of Azalea’s win cons require ample time to use the abilities which she just won’t get unless she opens with them which given how she’s been argued for this whole time seems unlikely. Leo said Delta uses it quickly, so that’s pretty much game over for Water Girl.

Ample time? Like what? Azalea winning relies that she hits any attack I mentioned. Or just uses Neptune's Gate at the start. Or even just uses Neptune's Gate the instant that she is teleported.

Doesn't require ample time whatsoever lol. What's unlikely is Azalea not hitting any attack and just dying in a dimension.

Azalea can open with multiple things, each one of them is deadly for Delta.

And as I mentioned before Azalea immediately knows she is fighting someone immeasurably stronger than her in terms of stats so there is no reason for her to hold back the heavy hitting options.

 

[MintyBoi1]

Ample time? Like what? Azalea winning relies that she hits any attack I mentioned. Or just uses Neptune's Gate at the start. Or even just uses Neptune's Gate the instant that she is teleported.

Doesn't require ample time whatsoever lol. What's unlikely is Azalea not hitting any attack and just dying in a dimension.

Azalea can open with multiple things, each one of them is deadly for Delta.

And as I mentioned before Azalea immediately knows she is fighting someone immeasurably stronger than her in terms of stats so there is no reason for her to hold back the heavy hitting options.

Neptune’s Gate for one since it’s been said already that Delta will just bounce the moment he’s stranded her. I don’t think it’s in character for Azalea to pop her ult on spawn. Also the siphoning of his hydration doesn’t seem like an opener.

Delta has better mobility and likely comparable skill, I don’t feel that Azalea will hit in the like 10 seconds before he Tombs her.

What’s most likely? You say she won’t hold back, but aren’t her basic water attacks already some god tier bs? And the skeleton still traps her with gravity manip if it’s used plus Delta has spatial manipulation and speed reduction to throw her off.

 

[Phoenks]

Neptune’s Gate for one since it’s been said already that Delta will just bounce the moment he’s stranded her. I don’t think it’s in character for Azalea to pop her ult on spawn. Also the siphoning of his hydration doesn’t seem like an opener.

Delta has better mobility and likely comparable skill, I don’t feel that Azalea will hit in the like 10 seconds before he Tombs her.

What’s most likely? You say she won’t hold back, but aren’t her basic water attacks already some god tier bs?

If Azalea and Delta have comparable skill, and I mentioned before that Azalea has fought people with the same exact mobility options, then why in the world wouldn't she be able to hit him in this "10 second" timeframe. That makes no logical sense.

As for what is more likely, I would need to ask the creator what she would do if she saw a 3-A standing 10 meters away from her and needed to defeat them. That's never happened to her before.

All the options are equally deadly anyway. Some of them are just way more instant. Like if she used Hydrokinesis or freezing techniques, they would make mobility useless. If she used Neptune's Gate, it would make everything useless.

Water attacks are projectiles but you are betting on her missing them all for nonsensical reasoning.

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

As for what is more likely, I would need to ask the creator what she would do if she saw a 3-A standing 10 meters away from her and needed to defeat them. That's never happened to her before.

Didn't you argue against Delta opening with Quiet Tomb after I specifically stated he would and has against comparable enemies using the argument that neither have prior knowledge so they wouldn't know to use the best moves? I feel like that sort of applies here.

 

[Phoenks]

Didn't you argue against Delta opening with Quiet Tomb after I specifically stated he would and has against comparable enemies using the argument that neither have prior knowledge so they wouldn't know to use the best moves? I feel like that sort of applies here.

This is irrelevant for Azalea because all of her options are equally deadly, some are just more deadly than others.

For you it matters way more since you only have one win condition.

 

[Phoenks]

Furthermore, as I mentioned before Azalea does have the ability to see how strong her opponent relatively is via the Observe skill. So if she knows she is fighting a 3-A there is no reason for her to hold back from the best options at the time.

 

[Rayfire]

Furthermore, as I mentioned before Azalea does have the ability to see how strong her opponent relatively is via the Observe skill. So if she knows she is fighting a 3-A there is no reason for her to hold back from the best options at the time.

Well, hold on one second. Would observe even pick up delta to begin with? Both of their power systems are very different, especially if delta can’t interact with her soul or magic like arkanes seemingly could, and delta doesn’t warp reality with his mind (I mean, he does to some degree by manipulating space itself, but not outright reality warping).

So, if observe is faced with something it has never scanned before, plus the fact that it needs to specifically see levels, which delta’s power system doesn’t have either, would it even register? Lol

Even if it does work and azalea opens with Neptunes gate for whatever reason, delta can always go outside of azalea’s range, send the chain through a portal unexpectedly, And i most certainly still don’t see any stat-negating properties on the Neptune’s gate description, so LS could allow him to break out even without his abilities. Delta still has many ways to avoid neotune’s gate just as he can with her conventional attacks, so it doesn’t really matter. Delta will get off quiet tomb before azalea can hit him or do anything.

 

[Phoenks]

Well, hold on one second. Would observe even pick up delta to begin with? Both of their power systems are very different, especially if delta can’t interact with her soul or magic like arkanes seemingly could, and delta doesn’t warp reality with his mind (I mean, he does to some degree by manipulating space itself, but not outright reality warping).

Yes since all it picks up is the basic stats and level which are tied to physical attributes rather than magic. Under standard verse equalization it would have no problems here.

So, if observe is faced with something it has never scanned before, plus the fact that it needs to specifically see levels, which delta’s power system doesn’t have either, would it even register? Lol

Yes.


H

Even if it does work and azalea opens with Neptunes gate for whatever reason, delta can always go outside of azalea’s range, send the chain through a portal unexpectedly, And i most certainly still don’t see any stat-negating properties on the Neptune’s gate description, so LS could allow him to break out even without his abilities. Delta still has many ways to avoid neotune’s gate just as he can with her conventional attacks, so it doesn’t really matter. Delta will get off quiet tomb before azalea can hit him or do anything.

At this point I think you're just trying to annoy me.

I've said it three entire times now that Neptune's Gate can not be broken out of by physical strength as it is a non-physical, magical ability that Delta can't interact with. He can't avoid Neptune's Gate as he can't even see where it is, lol. He don't even have the senses required to see the magic happen.

 

[MintyBoi1]

This is irrelevant for Azalea because all of her options are equally deadly, some are just more deadly than others.

For you it matters way more since you only have one win condition.

Quality over quantity

 

[Phoenks]

Quality over quantity

Except the quality of Azalea's are also better as I've proven so this statement means nothing. Have you run short on arguments?