[R2M1] Mettaton SPIRAL vs Blackjack [GRACE]

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

See the main hub for the rules
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Character	Attack Potency	Votes
Mettaton SPIRAL	0.60 Tons of TNT	1
Blackjack	>0.66 Tons of TNT	4
Inconclusive		0

 

[DMUA]

I noticed that Mettaton and a lot of Inverted fate pages seem to inexplicably have + ratings despite there being no feat or multiplier to indicate as such (and they have like, .5 tons between their feat and the + baseline anyways)

Probably not that relevant given their durability is just incredibly upscaled from .6 tons anyways, but

 

[JohnConquest1]

If I could add more ">" for a silly sense of emphasis on Blackjacks part I would add several.

Will make a more detailed comment later.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I noticed that Mettaton and a lot of Inverted fate pages seem to inexplicably have + ratings despite there being no feat or multiplier to indicate as such (and they have like, .5 tons between their feat and the + baseline anyways)

How weird. I don't see any on Mettaton's page
They're most likely just remnants of when UT was Building level+
Most Inverted Fate pages are outdated afterall

 

[DMUA]

I remember seeing it on the Durability section but I might be mixing that with Toriel, who I remember him scaling to there

 

[GreyFang82]

Mettaton's following abilities get countered by Blackjack:

Spatial Manipulation (Cuts the bullet board, therefor blocking movement and entraps a person in an area) - Countered by Blackjack's teleportation
Temporal Manipulation & Danmaku (Records attacks and rewinds them, likely catching a person who doesn't have a 360 vision) - SATS helps with avoid these projectiles since her perception speed amped greatly and since speed is equalized her Teleportation is actually super good at dodging attacks.

Smoke manipulation and Melee attacks with Temporal Manipulation is countered by E.F.S which means she always knows where Mettaton is...

Except for when Mettaton uses their ability to try and jam her Pipbuck.

Blackjack can also attempt to hack Mettaton, considering their entire body is just magical tech, just like her Pipbuck.

The difference here though, if Mettaton hacks Blackjack; she's hampered for sure, but it doesn't cripple her since her Teleportation is what carries her a lot in these fights especially since all she needs is reaction time to dodge rather than actually physically moving, unlike Frisk and other who fought Mettaton.

Flight seems like an issue, but having to move through space vs being able to appear where ever you like is a huge deal.

Now flip this to the other side, if Blackjack hacks Mettaton their entire body is gone, this leaves one issue...

Blackjack doesn't have Non-Physical interaction / Soul Manipulation. I think it's quite literally physically impossible for her to win this fight even if she has all the tools to counter Mettaton's abilities, but can't take out Mettaton's ghost form.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Mettaton's ghost form is featless, so I think destroying his body would still count as incap
Although, Mettaton can control his body even when it runs out of battery, so hacking it probably won't do much

 

[GreyFang82]

Mettaton's ghost form is featless, so I think destroying his body would still count as incap
Although, Mettaton can control his body even when it runs out of battery, so hacking it probably won't do much

Ok, so they can control a dead body that is not resisting them, that's cool.

But Blackjack's hack would actively fight against their control, meaning instead of just puppetting dead weight, they will fight for every movement. I still think this state leaves Blackjack with a huge opening. Even if you say it's a little bit of resistance, since they are at equal speed and Blackjack's teleportation negates travel time, it means she will get a serious hit, regardless of it be clean or through a messy guard.

 

[JohnConquest1]

Temporal Manipulation & Danmaku (Records attacks and rewinds them, likely catching a person who doesn't have a 360 vision) - SATS helps with avoid these projectiles since her perception speed amped greatly and since speed is equalized her Teleportation is actually super good at dodging attacks.

Smoke manipulation and Melee attacks with Temporal Manipulation is countered by E.F.S which means she always knows where Mettaton is...

Except for when Mettaton uses their ability to try and jam her Pipbuck.

All Characters I submitted had their Pipbucks restricted due to SATS.

Blackjack can also attempt to hack Mettaton, considering their entire body is just magical tech, just like her Pipbuck.

Not how her body works, Blackjack hacking is almost amusing, yet extremely out of character and beyond her.

As for her body itself, it was created using the blood/extract of Discord, before being magically altered and processed, into a ""seemingly mindless, soulless blank template"" who when given DNA samples would adopt the traits of the donor to a near tee. The only differences being that body is stronger, is completely impervious to Discords highly toxic blood, and the body is unable to procreate.

(The character linked is not Blackjacks clone body and has nothing to do with that, said character is simply the most famous "Blank" and of the stories best characters.)

 

[GreyFang82]

All Characters I submitted had their Pipbucks restricted due to SATS.


Not how her body works, Blackjack hacking is almost amusing, yet extremely out of character and beyond her.

As for her body itself, it was created using the blood/extract of Discord, before being magically altered and processed, into a ""seemingly mindless, soulless blank template"" who when given DNA samples would adopt the traits of the donor to a near tee. The only differences being that body is stronger, is completely impervious to Discords highly toxic blood, and the body is unable to procreate.

(The character linked is not Blackjacks clone body and has nothing to do with that, said character is simply the most famous "Blank" and of the stories best characters.)

Oh, if Pipbuck is restricted then, nevermind about the hacking.

 

[JohnConquest1]

What does Mettaton usually start with?

Just to again make it very clear, Hacking is not something Blackjack can do,

She just has a Desert Eagle like pistol, and a healing potion, in addiction to whatever weapon she decides to project (Swords, Hammers, etc she can even project bullets.)

Like I said in her last match she just tries to end her fights as quick as possible by teleporting to a surmised weak spot, usually behind them, and attacking them with a projected sword. She does not piss around when fighting, and just tries ending her opponent as efficiently as possible. Despite fighting being one of the few things in life that give her any amount of pleasure in life.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

What does Mettaton usually start with?

• Creating numerous copies of his sword and sending them at his opponent before MTT throws his blade like a boomerang towards his opponent with high precision
• Throwing boxes at the arena to make it harder for his opponent to maneuver
• Raining bombs and blocks down on his opponent
• Summoning tiny copies of himself which will attack his opponent with deadly heart projectiles that home in on the enemy
• Create numerous drills that quickly emerge from all sides
• Creating enormous bursts of dozens upon dozens of electric bolts which are immensely difficult to dodge

The sword-danmaku is his first attack, the blocks are his second, and so on and so on

 

[JohnConquest1]

I'm a little unsure on how to approach debating this, given just how Undertale characters fight.

 

[DMUA]

Past the smoke and mirrors of the presentation, it's really just a matter of if they can handle this many projectiles when they don't come from a firearm or anything else they can easily aim dodge

 

[JohnConquest1]

They don't look like they're moving too fast is all.
I know next to nothing about Undertale just to get that out there.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Frisk's SOUL (the heart) movement is what everyone scales to in speed, and most projectiles usually outspeed them, although the overhead view usually makes dodging them easier (The SOUL is 0.52m btw)

 

[JohnConquest1]

So does the sword move at its own speed independent of Mettaton?

To step around that question for a second, how would Mettaton deal with his body being unusable, and what would it take to get to that point?

Another question I have is about their weakness.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I don't quite understand the first question

Depends what's considered unusable, Mettaton, as previously mentioned. could utilize his body just fine when it ran out of energy.
If it's unusable as like destroyed, then that has never really happened in the story, Mad Ghoul kinda just retreated when Frisk made all the Season Dudes expel her from their bodies and was genuinely terrified when Frisk was going to destroy her main robot body (At that point)
I can see Mettaton trying to possess stuff in the battlefield to attack Blackjack, doubt it would actually do anything tho

As for what it would take for it to be considered unusable, probably something similar to what happens to the previous timeline Mad Mew Mew's body if you "betrayal kill" her, she can already basically shrug off decapitation and even a Mettaton that did fuse with his body could still fight with none of his limbs

As for their weakness,

Weak against murderous intentions

A monster's body will have their defenses weakened if they refuse to fight against the opponent, and will get even more vulnerable if said opponent has an extreme desire to kill, although Mettaton's body being made of mostly metal rather than magic reduces the effects of said weakness

 

[JohnConquest1]

I'm just more or less asking how one would/ should interpret Undertale like attacks in a 3D Environment with things like the bullet board and what not.

What does Mettaton's durability scale to?

Given how her negative emotions nearly killed people or could harm people with the ability to see them as outward projections it might be a problem.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

It's real weird, some view it as like a birdeye view with the SOUL representing Frisk but it could also be viewed as like the SOUL actually being dragged into a physical "Battle Box" or something. Inverted Fate leans to the former with its Secret Pages

About his durability,

It should be noted that Mettaton upscales over his AP value (Mettaton SPIRAL has an immense attack value of 70 while holding back, thus stronger than Undyne's and Mad Mew Mew's 50 ATK, the former of whom performed the 0.60 Tons feat) and is far more durable than his AP (Undyne builts her robots with durability in mind, and MTT isn't an exception. This is demonstrated by him being completely unaffected by any of Frisk's attacks during his playable fight. Mad Mew Mew, who should be around as durable as him, no-sells an attack ("betrayal kill") Frisk that exploits her weakness which lets a far weaker Frisk one-shot Toriel, who has a defense value of 80 like Asgore, who's so superior to characters like previous timeline Undyne (50 ATK) to the point where she considers herself killing Frisk to be mercy compared to what Asgore could do)
TL;DR: Mettaton SPIRAL's durability >>> Frisk exploiting Monster Weakness >>> Asgore/Toriel > Mettaton SPIRAL >> Undyne/Mad MewMew > 0.60 Tons
(>>> being one-shots and no-sells)

The weakness probably won't help much, Mettaton's body doesn't even melt when he becomes an Amalgamate
Dorked even said that LV (Which basically means killing intent) wouldn't make a difference against "a physical, tangible machine"

 

[DMUA]

If killing intent doesn't help against a machine, wouldn't that sort of eliminate the part where Frisk exploiting a monster's weakness is unable to genuinely harm Mettaton in terms of how his durability scales out?

I was kinda under the impression that would actually be a factor, but if they're just immune to the weakness then I dunno why they'd be superior to that

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Mettaton's durability comes from scaling to Mad Mew Mew, who supposedly has the weakness from what she says, so ye

 

[DMUA]

Well like, it's an explicit resistance by that statement, so I wouldn't turn around and say that Mettaton is just so tough that the weakness doesn't matter, if the issue is that they're just made of something that LOVE can't effect

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

After looking more into it, it appears that what you're saying is indeed true

While it does seem like a "betrayal hit" does do more damage than an average attack, it's not comparable to what one does to an actual monster
So yeah, Mettaton isn't as tanky as I was making him up to be, sorry about that

With this, lad's durability would go down to just no-selling attacks around his paygrade
There's some stuff about how his body is "durable by human standards" and humans in UT/IF are naturally a lot stronger than monsters, with the humans united having slaughtered countless monsters without the monsters even getting ahold of a single SOUL
but yeah, his scaling chain just goes down to,
Mettaton SPIRAL's durability >>> Mettaton SPIRAL >> Undyne/Mad MewMew > 0.60 Tons

Also, more stuff about how Ghosts work, should help with this fight

 

[JohnConquest1]

So Mettatons durability is still far higher than what he himself can dish out even with that weakness in mind? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Getting the jump on opponents is something Blackjack often does in her fights. Typically via being underhanded or taking advantage of the setting.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

So Mettatons durability is still far higher than what he himself can dish out even with that weakness in mind? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah, Frisk with the same equipment is able to harm Toriel while not trying to kill and could theoretically break Undyne's weaker CORE robots (The weakest of which have 83 DEF [ie higher than Toriel and Asgore] and don't have monster weaknesses) and yet couldn't harm Mad Mew Mew even with the "betrayal hit"

 

[JohnConquest1]

Alright guess I gotta put together something to explain what level of nonsense Blackjack is at. theres bit to the chain so I'll try to keep out extraneous details unless it's necessary for emphasis.

Now the whole feat that got Fallout Equestria to its current ranking revolves around Littlepip's durability. While Littlepip is fiend when it comes to Telekinesis she's kinda a glass cannon, being more a book nerd before her adventure started. Physicals just were not her strong suit.

The next species I have to comment on are the Alicorns, and they're just flat out superior to Littlepip in all aspects, even Telekinesis, but importantly when they got their shields up they were neigh impervious to whatever Littlepip threw at them in a fight. More often than not, Littlepip and co. just had to outsmart them whenever they showed up.

3rd Character here and I swear we're getting to the end and interesting bits, we have Legate Vitosius, one of PH's main villains and the third strongest 8-C from PH purely on physicals. So Legate here, in his war against all living things ends up getting jumped by a dozen Alicorns, who try and stop him from just annihilating every pony in his path with their shields but still manages to break said shields in one strike, repeatedly.

So yeah dude can one shot shields vastly above what got FoE. it's current spot, just prior to Legate doing a reverse jumping, he was boxing with Blank Body Blackjack, same body she'd have for this match, and she tanked those kinda hits.

I know the scene mentioned ends abruptly but the next time we see Legate in the story, he's laughing at a captured pawn over how weak everyone is compared to him.

tl;dr
Legate>Blackjack>>Alicorn Shields>>>Littlepip's Durability (0.664)

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

Bump

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

Bump

 

[JohnConquest1]

Still not sure how this would play out.

 

[DMUA]

I think I'll officially make a call towards Mettaton's favor

while SOUL attacks aren't super durability negating, they'd still help against someone who beats out Metatton's raw AP like Blackjack and they don't have any resistance to it, meanwhile Mettaton's far up enough in the chain durability wise to at least be able to withstand what Blackjack can dish out and throw it back out with his swarm of projectiles. Teleporting helps, but they only seem capable of doing it a limited number of times before it causes problems, and this is actually a situation where Danmaku would be very useful by making the places Blackjack can even warp to to really get out of harm's way very limited

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

I think I'll officially make a call towards Mettaton's favor

while SOUL attacks aren't super durability negating, they'd still help against someone who beats out Metatton's raw AP like Blackjack and they don't have any resistance to it, meanwhile Mettaton's far up enough in the chain durability wise to at least be able to withstand what Blackjack can dish out and throw it back out with his swarm of projectiles. Teleporting helps, but they only seem capable of doing it a limited number of times before it causes problems, and this is actually a situation where Danmaku would be very useful by making the places Blackjack can even warp to to really get out of harm's way very limited

Counted

 

[GreyFang82]

Teleporting helps, but they only seem capable of doing it a limited number of times before it causes problems, and this is actually a situation where Danmaku would be very useful by making the places Blackjack can even warp to to really get out of harm's way very limited

Arguing that an ability that blatantly helps avoid the worst of Mettaton's kit (spatial manipulation to lock her down in an area) is somehow a detrimental is a big reach.

There's questions I have for a lot of undertale fights of this manner (looking at the fight gifs), such as: are the projectiles intangible? Are they a 360 attack radius? How much experience do they have in actually avoiding attacks?

I understand mechanics are lifted in these fights, but it leads to these super important questions to make a clear argument.

 

[DMUA]

Arguing that an ability that blatantly helps avoid the worst of Mettaton's kit (spatial manipulation to lock her down in an area) is somehow a detrimental is a big reach.

I... didn't say it was a detriment, just that the conditions made it have a lot less efficacy. I honestly just forgot Mettaton cutting the battlebox down was a thing he did, which is why I didn't mention that either but guess it cancels out with Blackjack just teleporting out

 

[GreyFang82]

I... didn't say it was a detriment, just that the conditions made it have a lot less efficacy. I honestly just forgot Mettaton cutting the battlebox down was a thing he did, which is why I didn't mention that either but guess it cancels out with Blackjack just teleporting out

Oh, fair enough.

Now I'm just curious on the answers of my questions, depending on the answer I might just agree Mettataon takes this.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

There's questions I have for a lot of undertale fights of this manner (looking at the fight gifs), such as: are the projectiles intangible? Are they a 360 attack radius? How much experience do they have in actually avoiding attacks?

I understand mechanics are lifted in these fights, but it leads to these super important questions to make a clear argument.

All non-blue/orange attacks in UT are tangible due to this, aside maybe Sans' attacks? Pretty sure even that was removed awhile ago
IF is in the same boat, although there's some grey area with the White Swords, since their counterpart, the Previous Timeline's legs, are called "laser-leg(s)"

The bombs and Mettaton's "final, most explosive attack" are AoE
The swords, blocks, electric bolts and homing heart-projectiles, are well, projectiles (The drills seem to just form from the ground and walls)

Frisk or Mettaton? Probably the latter, right?
Monsters express themselves with danmaku and their "attacks" are akin to greeting cards (This includes Woshua spiraling patterns of dozens water-drop bullets or Vulkin firing dozens of bolts at a wide angle) and as such monsters are experienced at dodging danmaku-based attacks.
Monsters are far less prepared for like, physical attacks, since they aren't familiar enough with human fighting patterns to know how to read and anticipate them, although the Waterfall Incident and having an actual human to help them made the Royal Guard's training put a LOT more emphasis on proper evasion against humans (Mettaton isn't part of the Royal Guard, so this shouldn't really apply tho)
As for Frisk, they are really good at dodging danmaku, so Mettaton landing hits on them is pretty impressive

 

[GreyFang82]

All non-blue/orange attacks in UT are tangible due to this, aside maybe Sans' attacks? Pretty sure even that was removed awhile ago
IF is in the same boat, although there's some grey area with the White Swords, since their counterpart, the Previous Timeline's legs, are called "laser-leg(s)"

The bombs and Mettaton's "final, most explosive attack" are AoE
The swords, blocks, electric bolts and homing heart-projectiles, are well, projectiles (The drills seem to just form from the ground and walls)

Frisk or Mettaton? Probably the latter, right?
Monsters express themselves with danmaku and their "attacks" are akin to greeting cards (This includes Woshua spiraling patterns of dozens water-drop bullets or Vulkin firing dozens of bolts at a wide angle) and as such monsters are experienced at dodging danmaku-based attacks.
Monsters are far less prepared for like, physical attacks, since they aren't familiar enough with human fighting patterns to know how to read and anticipate them, although the Waterfall Incident and having an actual human to help them made the Royal Guard's training put a LOT more emphasis on proper evasion against humans (Mettaton isn't part of the Royal Guard, so this shouldn't really apply tho)
As for Frisk, they are really good at dodging danmaku, so Mettaton landing hits on them is pretty impressive

Ok! Thank you! That actually helps alot!

So here's my thought process...

Teleporting will be the most common things, based on these descriptions of the attacks they seem to favor the area where the target is standing, meaning going from the center of their vision to 180 degrees behind them is not a bad idea and is pretty good for her actually since teleporting away from projectiles and drills from where you're currently standing is not a big deal. Also since these attacks are tangable it's possible she can get behind cover to ease herself off the danmaku if she starts feeling overwhelmed or try to use her force-fields to give her some cover as she shoots at mettaton.

The bombs are the biggest threat by a long shot here, that amount of area flooded with bombs is no joke, but I have to stress just how good teleportation is when speed is equalized. It's normally super hit or miss when it comes down dodging a person just as fast as you, outside of sword v sword combat that is, but normally in these fights you have the reaction time to start moving, but speed equal means it's hard to dodge, teleport cuts that part out and just gives you a clean dodge.

DMUA said: making the places Blackjack can even warp to to really get out of harm's way very limited

This sadly isn't the case since she's not locked down in any area of Central Park, she can teleport across the whole area just to avoid those bombs if she needs to. That being said, I don't think she'll come out unscathed, and will be a longer fight since she can't mow them down with killing intent amp and the scaling chain.

I am seriously leaning to Blackjack more often than not, I just don't see Mettaton winning outside of that final explosion attack and her failing to get out of the way before she get's overwhelmed by the amount of explosions.

But her having teleportation, not being locked down to a specific area, having cover and force-fields is what really makes this hard to give to Mettaton. I'll admit Mettaton will be able to avoid attacks with their experience facing off monster level danmaku and such, but I just don't see how they can guarantee a finish when she's hard to pin down. Meanwhile Blackjack teleporting around Mettaton for attacks is obviously he's never seen before, I don't think they can 100% dodge these attacks.

I think Blackjack takes it, or it ends in being inconclusive if you want to argue Mettaton's skill is too great to get hit by her bullets despite equal speed. There's a chance Mettaton takes it but it's a final attack meaning not something they spam and isn't 100% wincon vs Blackjack more often used but over time wincon.

Edit: That's all to say, I vote for Blackjack.

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

That's all to say, I vote for Blackjack.

Counted

 

[MintyBoi1]

This is very devisive but I’ll just give it to Blackjack for her defenses, plus the fact Mettaton’s stamina is unknown so that could potentially come into play. His final attack is definitely gonna be his best shot and like mentioned above there’s a good enough chance Blackjack just gets out of there

 

[JohnConquest1]

My apologies for being late to comment here. its been a little bit of a rough day. I've tried my best to read over everything thoroughly.

I want to take some time to talk about her teleportation proficiency because that seems to be a hot button issue. To start I believe I mentioned this before but regardless Blackjack max range with her teleporting is near or above cloud cover. Long story short, she wanted to save a friend who was trapped on the moon, and it did not go as planned. Did the teleport and fell right back to earth. What's key here is that she made no attempt to cushion or stop the fall in the first place. That range realistically should be treated as her absolute limit before she fries her horn.

On topic of her horn, yeah breaking it is extremely painful and will remove her ability to use any kind of magic from the equation. The former point just, given everything listed in her supernatural willpower section and her having broke it before, would not be as noticable. Of course losing her magic would still suck though.

Back to her teleportation though, if she's not pushing her range limit it's easy to assume she'd be more than capable of spamming it, given well, she did just that. Another long story short, Blackjack once had to fight someone who could atomize things in a set spherical area with a thought, and had a cool down of at max a second. Worse still, her favorite tactic for dealing with males, ie kicking them in the family jewels did zero ******* damage. It came down to Blackjack just spamming teleports until she could figure out a way to win that encounter. Admittedly by the end of it Blackjack was actually exhausted but I'd also be remiss to mention that Blackjack just got her Blank body at that time. Its explicitly mentioned that cybernetics and generic unicorn magic don't mix, and its highly likely she was exerting herself more than she needed to, and was not used to the lessened strain.

I didn't make that innuendo entirely for fun either. She'll jump at any perceived weak point and take whatever time she can afford to scope out her opponent, should her initial attack plan prove ineffective.

I'm still undecided though, definitely just gonna need more time to think on this because there's certainly a number of ways and outcomes where Mettaton can take this with even minimal difficulty.