Questioning Chara's classification as a 2-B

[Voidchimera]

Yeah, looking back on this, honestly, I regret questioning Chara's definition as a 2-B, and I see no reason she couldn't just keep remaking and destroying the world forever until she was a 2-A (Unless you're using a SSD and the 10^500 saves destroy your drive xD).

But Undyne's classification is still kinda wonky. She still could NEVER kill Chara, only cause her to reset. Her damage was firmly grounded in our universe. So why is it listed as multiverse level? While she still has pretty determined resistance (*wonk*), that is the only stat that is anywhere near that level.

She does not fit the definition for that tier. She is not able to create, or even interfere with anything but the universe and timeline she was in, just like anyone else, she is simply protected by her one boon. Her defense may be, but the rest of the stats seem very skewed.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Doesn't exactly work that way. You don't have to affect a multiverse to be multiverse level. She just has Multiverse AP but not range.

Also she has the exact same stats as end-game Chara.

 

[Voidchimera]

Doesn't exactly work that way. You don't have to affect a multiverse to be multiverse level. She just has Multiverse AP but not range.
Also she has the exact same stats as end-game Chara.

But no feats. In-game stats mean nothing here. The fact is, she never showed multiversality. She never interfered with the timeline, period. That alone means she isn't multiverse level. If you still don't get it, look at the tier definitions. Defense and Tier are seperate things. She only showed that level of defense.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Still not how it works. Regular powerscaling works at these level too.

Also she hurts Chara, so she kinda scales too.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

If we are gonna still use the logic of "More souls will always have more power" then there is no way Frisk could prevent Asriel from anything.

And Chara has Frisk's Soul.

In fact. Logically speaking. It doesn't really make a lot of sense that Neutral Frisk is more determined than other Frisk from any of the extreme routes (Being pacifist or genocide) because both need higher amounts of Determination to be completed.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well I wasn't really using the 6 SOUL argument as my main argument, just that it would happen to make sense.

 

[Voidchimera]

Still not how it works. Regular powerscaling works at these level too.
Also she hurts Chara, so she kinda scales too.

No, she actually never hurts Chara. All she can do is cause her body to reset, that's never shown as physical damage, or shown to hurt Chara themself in any way. Chara's physical bodily resistance is NOT why she got that value, she has that value because of her timeline powers that make killing her virtually impossible in the Undertale-verse.


Again, facts are facts. Undyne never showed higher-dimensional powers. Therefore, she isn't a 2-B, not even close.

 

[Verivici]

I agree, actually.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

No, her values comes from her busting the game at the very end of the Run.

Also, you seems to think that Undying only has Multiverse Dura, but that makes no sense if you don't believe Mutliverse AP either since:

1. The argument that Undyine "hans't shown higher dimensional powers" works for her dura too. "She is only physical and not higher dimensional, she couldn't tank these hits"

2. Chara's feats was physical, aka they did it via striking physically. That should scales to their physical body dura too.

 

[Verivici]

In geno, all bosses hurt you as much as they usually would if you stall and don't FIGHT

Just leaving this factoid here, not sure how it factors into our convo.

 

[Apsycho_floió]

This thread lol

Chara blatantly destroyed it

 

[Voidchimera]

No, her values comes from her busting the game at the very end of the Run.
Also, you seems to think that Undying only has Multiverse Dura, but that makes no sense if you don't believe Mutliverse AP either since:

1. The argument that Undyine "hans't shown higher dimensional powers" works for her dura too. "She is only physical and not higher dimensional, she couldn't tank these hits"

2. Chara's feats was physical, aka they did it via striking physically. That should scales to their physical body dura too.

Dude. Dura, Tier, and Striking are ALL different stats, each with their own very specific definitons. Your argument is just saying that Dura and Tier are equivalent, which is false. Therefore your argument is false

2) Again, striking strength has NOTHING to do with durability. And anyway, their powers came from determination, not physical strength. Their physical stats (def, strength, etc) aren't why they're that tier, they're that tier because of her timeline editing abilities. Chara might be pretty much impossible to kill, but their body is NOT, which is why she can be forced to reset by normal random enemies.

 

[Elvis_Adika]

That is the biggest point here, none of the characters ever go beyond our universe.

Ummm, have you seen the fight between Asriel and Frisk?

Asriel literally destroyed an entire timeline, and yet, Frisk manages to outran an entire Timeline from being destroyed, and they both manage to end up on another timeline.

Destroying an entire timeline doesnt mean editing it. It literally means the permanent destruction of that timeline, since you are destroying that Universe from every point of time.

 

[Voidchimera]

That is the biggest point here, none of the characters ever go beyond our universe.

Ummm, have you seen the fight between Asriel and Frisk?
Asriel literally destroyed an entire timeline, and yet, Frisk manages to outran an entire Timeline from being destroyed, and they both manage to end up on another timeline.

Destroying an entire timeline doesnt mean editing it. It literally means the permanent destruction of that timeline, since you are destroying that Universe from every point of time.

Bruh, that part of the discussion is long over. Just talking about loose ends/oddties like Undyne rn.

 

[Apsycho_floió]

Also

Striking strength = durability by physics

I learnt this when I was legit 12

This is kind of silly now

 

[Voidchimera]

Also
Striking strength = durability by physics

I learnt this when I was legit 12

Dude, think outside the box. Remember, Undertale does NOT follow normal logic here. How much damage you do depends on your killing intent, which is measured by your LOVE (and yes, that is the in cano explination, given in the library in Snowdon). It's why you do SO much more damage to bosses than to random enemies that you don't care about.

Plus, think about it. Do you think physical strength lets you destroy a universe like that? Please, read up on how stats are considered here before making comments like this.

 

[Apsycho_floió]

Literally what?

You literally just said game mechanics.

Do you think physical strength lets you destroy a universe like that?

You kinda played yourself here fam.

>Says Undertale doesn't follow logic

>Uses normal logic in the same post for Undertale

Odd.

This is just flailing now. Universe busts have happened with physical strength before.

 

[Voidchimera]

Literally what?
You literally just said game mechanics.

Do you think physical strength lets you destroy a universe like that?

You kinda played yourself here fam.

>Says Undertale doesn't follow logic

>Uses normal logic in the same post for Undertale

Odd.

This is just flailing now. Universe busts have happened with physical strength before.

First off, this isn't 4chan. Chill with the arrows. Second off, this is still strawmaning lmao. Attacking me for semantical terminology choices, on an anecdote not at ALL vital to my point does NOT invalidate it. That's literally on the level of saying that somebody is wrong because they made a typo. It was STATED that Chara's strength comes from their LOVE. Done deal. End of story. It was stated in canon, and all the feats in-game support it.

 

[Apsycho_floió]

What?

There's no rule on greentexting fam, sorry

Also I don't see how that matters.

Chara is at least universal in all stats, get over it

 

[Voidchimera]

Also I don't see how that matters.

Chara is at least universal in all stats, get over it

Wow, "get over it". Nice.


Your earlier point that Strength = Durability goes against the definiton of those terms here. That's it.


Second, Chara's body CAN be killed by normal enemies, even after fighting Undyne. That alone means Undyne is on a similar attack level to the normal enemies in Undertale. It also means that while Chara does have conceptual immortality, her body is never shown to be anywhere near universe-tier resistant. If you know a time where it is shown, please show it. Making claims like that without evidene is unproductive to discussion.

 

[Apsycho_floió]

Literally what?

You said the same thing, dude.

Also, what are you even saying? Durability = Striking Strength by physics.

Also wtf? That is pretty clearly game mechanics, dude. Undyne and Sans are the only real characters that can fight Chara.

Secondly? Stop acting like you're above me, thanks

 

[Voidchimera]

What part of "Game logic does not obey physics" do you not get. Anyway, that's not even true, have you taken a physics class? Durability ~= Hardness, but not striking strength. For example, if I launched a pool noodle at you at 99% of the speed of light, it would still kill you dead. The force behind an attack has nothing to do with the durability of the weapon or person wielding it. You're saying that if someone can cut you with a knife, then they must be durable enough to resist being stabbed.

And actually, that's completely wrong. You ca get killed by any normal enemy in the Genoside run, Undyne and Sans are the only bosses that can fight them. That's what my whole point is based on. Those two do the most damage to Chara, but the normal enemies are still on the same tier, even though they do a few points less damage (hell, most of them do more damage than Sans). To accentuate my point, it takes more hits to kill Tsunderplane in a Genocide run than it does to kill Sans. Does that mean Tsunderplane should be a higher tier than him?

Finally, I never said I was above you. You used 'I don't see how that matters' and 'get over it' as your only points, which is unproductive to discussion.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You have no reasons to refute real life logic simply because it's a game. Do you have a clear case of it being contradicted in the game?

No. Enemies being harder to kill are clearly either game mechanics or Chara just not having determination in killing them.

 

[Apsycho_floió]

You used 'I don't see how that matters' and 'get over it' as your only points, which is unproductive to discussion.

No I didn't lmao

 

[Verivici]

And see my statement, which everyone ignored.

Muffet can hurt Chara if she stalls and doesn't FIGHT, does this mean Muffet is 2b?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Not really.

Muffet seems to be more treated like a normal enemy than a boss, so it's likely the same as other enemies.

 

[Verivici]

Unless I'm mistaken, it applies to all the other bosses as well.

Could somebody check?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Papyrus doesn't attack you.

Undyne is Undying.

Mettaton doesn't attack you.

Asgore gets blitzed.

Only one is Toriel, but that's extremely early game Frisk.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Only one is Toriel, but that's extremely early game Frisk.

To be fair, she also gets one-shot extremely easily.

 

[Verivici]

Sure it is, but if Frisk could use Chara's power to anihlhate her like that, couldn't they use it to protect themselves?

And Muffet gets oneshotted with Chara power, it's kinda unlikely she's not a boss but a unique encounter like Greater Dog or Napstablook.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well yeah, but not a Main Boss, just a mid-boss.

@HIT IT

..Well that's kinda why her Dura is at Multiverse level too.

 

[Verivici]

So End of Ruins Frisk has tier 2 AP with like tier 7 durability and relativistic+ speed?

And Muffet's fight is like twice as long as Toriel's IIRC, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to consider her a miniboss.

 

[Voidchimera]

You have no reasons to refute real life logic simply because it's a game. Do you have a clear case of it being contradicted in the game?
No. Enemies being harder to kill are clearly either game mechanics or Chara just not having determination in killing them.

"No reason to refute real life logic"

"Clearly game mechanics" smh

You can't pick and choose what's game mechanics. What we know is, normal enemies CAN hurt Chara. Therefore, either ALL of their attacks are that level, or her durability is not.

To settle these and eliminate the first posibility, there actually IS a case of it being contradicted in the game, in an excerpt from the Library:

"Because they are made of magic, monsters' bodies are attuned to their SOUL.

If a monster doesn't want to fight, its defenses will weaken.

And the crueller the intentions of our enemies, the more their attacks will hurt us.

Therefore, if a being with a powerful SOUL struck with the desire to kill..."

This weighs in on the second posibility: Since the only feats denying this are conjecture (which is lower level than statments like this) Chara's durability is NOT linked to her striking strength Her powerful attacks are metaphysical in nature, not physical, which is supported in-game in other ways, such as her Level of Violence being proportional to damage.

This is 100% supported in game with the fact that Frisk/Chara do damage VERY situationally. Frisk did exceptional damage to Toriel once she calmed down, which is also talked about in the library, and Chara did FAR greater damage to Toriel than any other enemy thus far, since Toriel was 'getting in her way', something that notibly elicits anger from Chara.

Without the false link between her durability and striking strength, there's nothing else supporting her defense classification being that high (although she does still have conceptual immortlity via Determination, but that's unrelated to durability). Now, there ARE some impressive feats supporting maybe wall level or street level (she can tank lasers, energy spears, etc), which is clearly rather impressive. I think city block level might be in order, simply from the Gaster Blasters alone? Anyone have some better feats?

 

[Cropfist]

Aren't game mechanics in Undertale canon?

 

[Verivici]

Some

 

[Voidchimera]

Aren't game mechanics in Undertale canon?

Yep, like this one. Not all of them have this many feats supporting them, though.

 

[Radicalcoolade1]

Okay isn't chara just breaking the forth wall, and her classification should be atleast 8C like city level, she tanked attacks from flowey

 

[Alexcar3000]

Okay isn't chara just breaking the forth wall, and her classification should be atleast 8C like city level, she tanked attacks from flowey

That downplay is unreal...

 

[Radicalcoolade1]

Yeah but how would she be universal, also she is interacting with the audience, and she could get damaged by regular monsters, so yeah

 

[Alexcar3000]

Yeah but how would she be universal, also she is interacting with the audience, and she could get damaged by regular monsters, so yeah

I think you're talking about Frisk (who was possessed). Chara only fully manifested themselves at the end of the Genocide Route, and Frisk was harmed by regular monsters because Chara simply did not care about them, remember that Chara's (and Frisk's) power comes from DETERMINATION. That's why they do regular damage to normal monsters, but massive damage to bosses and such.

Chara is Tier 2 becase they destroyed every timeline of the game in a single blow.