Question about Vegito

[Amlad22]

Why is it that Vegito has not been upgraded to Low 2-C along with Kefla? He is for sure stronger than her given that Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Kale and Caulifla, and on top of that he can access Blue. So why isn't he on the same level as Kefla?

 

[AKM sama]

Probably because Kefla's transformations are different(because of the green hair which hints at Kale's invovement and we all know that Kale's transformations are too OP) and there is no definitive way of finding out if she is weaker than that Vegito Blue or not. So maybe this is just going with the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Amlad22]

The berserker transformation is defiantly a very powerful one. But the chances of it being a higher multiplier than Blue is very unlikely. Blue is pretty much the strongest transformation in the series so far. With the exception of Ultra Instinct of course.

 

[The_Immortal_Shadow]

I agree with the notion that Super Saiyan Blue > True Legendary Super Saiyan. Even a Super Saiyan God Goku was overwhelming a True Legendary Super Saiyan Kale with little to no difficulty.

Super Saiyan Blue > Super Saiyan God > True Legendary Super Saiyan

 

[ALRF]

Until we do get some solid proof that Vegito (Blue) > Kefla (Super Saiyan 2 + Berserk), they are still going to be the same and won't have their tiers changed

 

[AKM sama]

Also, Vegito Blue (current) would definitely be > ssj2 Kefla (current)

But there is nothing definitive which suggests that Vegito Blue of FT arc is stronger than Kefla.

Remember, Goku and Vegeta currently are much stronger than their previous selves.

 

[Amlad22]

They aren't that much stronger though. Since the Goku Black arc ended Goku only got one power boost (his zenkai against Hit) and Vegeta only trained once (in the HTC). So not a significant growth in power. Maybe only 2x boost at best.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

They aren't that much stronger though. Since the Goku Black arc ended Goku only got one power boost (his zenkai against Hit) and Vegeta only trained once (in the HTC). So not a significant growth in power. Maybe only 2x boost at best.

Agreed. Goku before the Tournament even said he grows rusty and wanted to train with Whis again. Vegeta also didn't train and waited for Bra to be born.

Kefla wants to go Blue. She even told Goku that. So her transfarmations << Blue.

Also Kefla's transfromations are regarded by everybody to be SS1 & SS2. Nobody said that are stronger than the normal ones. I have posted many times a picture of Toei with Kefla referring her as SSJ Kefla. No Beserk at all.

Also Kale Beserk controlled or not had physical changes (Kale is way taller for example) that Kefla hasn't.

 

[SITHISIT]

i hate it when people dont understand our scaling rules, instead following SethTheProgrammer logic.

for a short version; hell no.

for the long version: the difference between Vegito and Kefla is that Vegito is scaled to Merged Zamasu who is two degrees of infinity weaker than Infinite Zamasu and Kefla is scaled to UI Goku and Jiren who are stronger than Infinite Zamasu.

to make more sense, Infinite Zamasu transcends him, High 3-A, infinitely above him at this point, then transcends that level, now Low 2-C compared to the original product of 3-A. two degrees of infinity stronger.

this cant pass unless for some reason Shin gives Goku and Vegeta the earrings and they go fighting Jiren.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

i hate it when people dont understand our scaling rules, instead following SethTheProgrammer logic.
for a short version; hell no.

for the long version: the difference between Vegito and Kefla is that Vegito is scaled to Merged Zamasu who is two degrees of infinity weaker than Infinite Zamasu and Kefla is scaled to UI Goku and Jiren who are stronger than Infinite Zamasu.

to make more sense, Infinite Zamasu transcends him, High 3-A, infinitely above him at this point, then transcends that level, now Low 2-C compared to the original product of 3-A. two degrees of infinity stronger.

this cant pass unless for some reason Shin gives Goku and Vegeta the earrings and they go fighting Jiren.

And I hate that guy (Seth) and we are following DB logic.

for the short version: DB doesn't work like that.

for long version: Kefla is a Saiyan Potara Fusion. Caulifla and Kale scale to Goku. SSB Goku who is Vegito part is >> both of the them. Vegeta too. Even it was the previous saga since nowhere is even hinted a notable power increase in SSB for both.

By DB logic Potara Fusion of Kale and Calufla < Potara Fusion of Goku and Vegeta. And not to mention there is not an infinite gap between characters in DB. Kefla went from just > SSG Goku with SS2 to another level. There is no such a thing as infinite gap between her transformations. We know how SS2 works and the transformations that Kale and Caulifla have displayed in General.

Jiren didn't fight IZ and got upgrated. Because of what? A statement of Shin who just says that Jiren power feels diffrent. And even if we go that far and say that this means stronger then we don't know of which Zamasu Shin refers. Merged Zamasu or Infinite Zamasu. They couldn't do anything to the last one and they needed Zeno. Not to mention that Shin's statements about Merged Zamasu are considered hyperboles and for Jiren one single statement from Shin is ok without feats.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Keflas upgrade was dumb in general. Didn't hit Goku once. Gets upgraded to low 2c. Nice.

But if you're going that route vegito would obviously be stronger and should be low 2c.

 

[Dark649]

Vegito lasted much lower than Kelfla because he used the SSB, which was the strongest transformation at the time, i think we can assume that 2 SSB are superior to one SS2 and Berserk.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Vegito lasted much lower than Kelfla because he used the SSB, which was the strongest transformation at the time, i think we can assume that 2 SSB are superior to one SS2 and Berserk.

That too. SS2 is 3 transformations before Blue and Beserk was not even > SSG.

 

[RoyGundam]

Vegito lasted much lower than Kelfla because he used the SSB, which was the strongest transformation at the time, i think we can assume that 2 SSB are superior to one SS2 and Berserk.

Kefla lasted longer than Vegito because of Plot ...

 

[FTW395]

Kefla wanted to go SSB, why would she want to be SSB if she already had a transformation stronger than SSB?

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Vegito lasted much lower than Kelfla because he used the SSB, which was the strongest transformation at the time, i think we can assume that 2 SSB are superior to one SS2 and Berserk.

Kefla lasted longer than Vegito because of Plot ...

That's a terrible argument Goku don't being vaporized by his SB is plot, Goku and Con surviving IZ is plot, Trunks SB is plot etc everything is plot imo.

Kefla lasted longer because her power didn't waste the Potara energy.

@FTW395

I have said that many times my friend but...

 

[Deu2Ex]

Sorry to be off topic and also if this was already answered previously, but isn't Goku UIO v1 as strong as the u7 Spirit Bomb? I'm saying this because it makes sense since it was the thing that was powering him at the time after being completely depleted. He was able t compete with Jiren because of UI but not damage him because the power of said SB was insufficient against Jiren.

It also makes sense in the case of Kelfa SSJ being compared to it, which makes Kelfa SSJ2 being stronger than UIO Goku v1 a lot more plausible since she was at spirit bomb level as SSJ.

The only things that fail, in this case, is Goku Blue KK being able to smash Kefla SSJ around since he is supposed to be weaker than said spirit bomb, though I admit he was able to tank it so maybe it's not so huge a difference. The other being that UIO v1 shook the world of void.

 

[BlackMageVi]

Kefla lasted approximately two minutes. When she punches SSG Goku in the face, the narrator states there is 19 minutes left. At the end of the episode Kefla loses, he states 17 minutes left. We have no idea if her fusion would actually last longer or not considering we have no idea how long Vegetto lasted.

Until SSB Vegetto shows something on the scale of UI, I'd say Kefla has the advantage here and past Vegetto shouldn't scale to her. If Kale's True LSS1 can take her to SSG levels, even if somewhat weaker, it would bring Kefla to at least hypothetical SSG Vegetto tier. But we're not able to take into account how much stronger they might be due to training. Who knows how much stronger True LSS2 and Mastered TLSS2 could make someone? It could take them way past SSBKK for all we know. Maybe even UI status considering how much she outstripped Goku in raw stats.

I'd leave things as is for now.

 

[SITHISIT]

snip

really? DB logic? no. we dont follow its logic, if that were the case Super Shenron would be 1-A. We follow our own set of rules and logic.

Vegito is not being scaled to Kefla or anyone else as of right now and that is final.

 

[SuperDragoon978]

snip

really? DB logic? no. we dont follow its logic, if that were the case Super Shenron would be 1-A. We follow our own set of rules and logic.
Vegito is not being scaled to Kefla or anyone else as of right now and that is final.

Except Vegetto is OBJECTIVELY above Kefla. A fusion between two Super Saiyan Blues>> a fusion between a Super Saiyan 2 and Berserker (which was below SSG). I already brought this up and proved that Vegetto scales to Low 2-C and it was ignored. It is NOT final just because you say it is.

 

[SSJRyu1]

I'll say this. Blue form >>> SSJ2 berserker form in terms of increase. We know this since Kefla wants to obtain Blue, and even SSJ3, meaning even SSJ3 is likely >= SSJ2 berserker. Also we see SSJG Goku can stomp SSJ2 Caulifla and Berserker Kale, despite them being around SSJ2 Goku's level after fighting for a bit, so SSJG is definatly way above either form in terms of increase from base. So we know Blue is a much larger increase than SSJ2 Berserker.

Now onto the actual feats, Vegito > Fusion Zamasu (monster form) > Fusion Zamasu > SSJB Kaioken X10 Goku. The degree of this is unkown in anime. The manga places Vegito as perhaps stronger than beerus, but without that we have much less to go on for scaling here. Kefla can at least threaten to hurt UI Goku and is said to be around his initial UI in terms of power so she scales to him in power.

In the end scaling wise vegito should be logically strogner due to form and Goku and Vegeta being strogner than Kale/Caulifla, even if Goku and Vegeta were 10X as weak in base back in the balck arc they still wouldnt be infinitly weaker than Kale and Caulifla now, so the increase in power wouldn't account for a tier gap that large. So logic wise they should scale. With manga you can directly confirm it, without its just logic that dictates they scale, but lack of feats in anime only.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

snip

really? Why would Super Shenron be 1-A by DB logic? Because Kefla SS2 being infinite times more powerful than her SS1 according to your logic works right?

DB logic about Forms and fusions is like what SuperDragoon said. Its not difficult to follow and its more linear. Nothing more, nothing less. Also, I don't remember you being an Admin or anything to say things like its final. Your word values as much as ours dude.

@BlackMageVi Vegito had way less screentime (episodes) than Kefla. Its not like Merged Zamasu was messing around when Vegito came and started being serious.

 

[Ryukama]

Logically Vegito should be stronger than Kefla. Vegito has a superior transformation and he's a fusion made up of 2 far stronger people, and we all know the stronger the fusees are the stronger the fusion. No reason why SSJ2 Kefla would be in a vast, unfathomably higher realm of power than Vegito Blue. The only issues I can see arise are the wonky scaling regarding Merged Zamasu.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

[snip]

Thank you Ryu. Grotesque Merged Zamasu fought Vegito, so it would be more reasonable to upgrade only that form I guess.

 

[ProspectX]

Agree with Ryukama.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

because according to DB Logic he can grant any wish no matter the limit on it. no matter what. could easily make him 1-A.

Any wish to DB standards. Also, Zeno destroyed IZ who survived through the wish from Super Dragon Balls (F Zamasu was part of him). If the Dragon could give Tier 1 immortality then zeno wouldn't have destroyed Zamasu's Immortal soul.

 

[SITHISIT]

we cant just make assumptions "ok so goku and vegeta as blue are stronger than kale and caulifla, so vegito is automatically stronger!"

no. Vegito is even with a 3-A character. Kefla is scaled to beings who transcend that 3-A character.

we. cant. make. assumptions. "Logic" is not enough, there needs to be proper evidence and solid proof that Vegito is stronger than Kefla. Yes, most likely, Vegito is probably stronger and I kind of agree with it, but, there is no proof that Vegito is stronger or even with her, and like i said, just because basic logic would say this happens doesnt mean its actually true. Vegito is scaled to 3-A characters. Kefla is scaled to characters who are stronger than characters who transcend 3-A characters, twice.

 

[Ryukama]

C'mon Super Shenron is not 1-A guys.

Not even due to some "DB standards" or anything of the sorts. Remember that Zeno technically overrode a Super Shenron wish by killing someone granted immortality by him. Also I'm fairly sure Super Shenron can't grant a wish to kill Zeno.

Also even if Super Shenron can do anything possible within the DB verse doesn't mean he could do things to realms of existence vastly higher from other series. How can anyone make fun of ScrewAttack Superman or Saitama if they're going to make NLFs like these?

Please let's just get back to the actual topic of the conversation.

EDIT: Got ninja'd, but my point still stands.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I said it before and I'll say it again. I personally believe at this point these kind of revisions should be handled by staff only to get a final verdict so nothing gets uncluttered and the topic stays as it is.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

C'mon Super Shenron is not 1-A guys.
Not even due to some "DB standards" or anything of the sorts. Remember that Zeno technically overrode a Super Shenron wish by killing someone granted immortality by him. Also I'm fairly sure Super Shenron can't grant a wish to kill Zeno.

Also even if Super Shenron can do anything possible within the DB verse doesn't mean he could do things to realms of existence vastly higher from other series. How can anyone make fun of ScrewAttack Superman or Saitama if they're going to make NLFs like these?

Please let's just get back to the actual topic of the conversation.

I completely agree and that's what I wrote. He can not be 1A.

@SITH Assumptions? Kefla is a Potara Fusion. Take it as a form now that we know how Potara works. Its like saying (A + B)x10 = 50 and (C + D)x10 = 80. Its that simple. SSB Goku with and without KK could take SS1 Kefla for some time but collapsed due to no stamina. And then SS1 Kefla with just SS2 became infinately powerful?

Even with the scaling with IZ we have Shin statement in which we don't know what he really means and what form of Zamasu refers. IZ was destroyed by Zeno and they could do nothing. There are no feats or whatever. Only a sentence is the proper evidence.

 

[FTW395]

Nothing grinds my gears more than people who bring up this tiering system when scaling characters. No one in dragonball is infinitely stronger than anyone, no one in dragonball has any sort of "infinite power". They do have the feats to put them at Low 2-C, but IN dragonball that doesn't equate to being infnitely stronger than someone. Don't apply the sites tiering system to come up with tiers for characters, we use in-universe scaling and logic for that.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Nothing grinds my gears more than people who bring up this tiering system when scaling characters. No one in dragonball is infinitely stronger than anyone, no one in dragonball has any sort of "infinite power". They do have the feats to put them at Low 2-C, but IN dragonball that doesn't equate to being infnitely stronger than someone. Don't apply the sites tiering system to come up with a tiers for characters, we use in-universe scaling and logic for that.

Couldn't say it any better!!

 

[Pikachu942]

I personally think if we're giving Kefla Low 2-C (which I don't agree with), Vegito and Merged Zamasu should also get Low 2-C.

 

[SITHISIT]

Nothing grinds my gears more than people who bring up this tiering system when scaling characters. No one in dragonball is infinitely stronger than anyone, no one in dragonball has any sort of "infinite power". They do have the feats to put them at Low 2-C, but IN dragonball that doesn't equate to being infnitely stronger than someone. Don't apply the sites tiering system to come up with tiers for characters, we use in-universe scaling and logic for that.

oh look, you just proved my point, you're using logic from a verse that literally veers off another road from our rules of scaling on here and making baseless assumptions ONCE MORE.

may I make this a bit more clear? We. Can't. Make. Assumptions. There has to be solid proof. also, if a character is Low 2-C, however according to verse standards, the 3-A is still finitely weaker than it, that's just pure unacknowledgement for a basic rule "A 3-D is always infinitely weaker than a 4-D" on here, and it's an outlier..

Lack of Solid Proof > Logic.


you see this is why i hate people who lie about the fact that they watch seththeprogrammer then decide to come on here

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

I mean...Beerus is clearly not treated as being infinitely above Goku in-canon since Whis' comparison still warranted a finite difference (although extremely large)

And of course there's the SSJ1 Kefla to SSJ2 Kefla "infinite" jump in power which in the context of the story really isn't.

So in reality Vegito isn't really that far of in power from Kefla and the other Low 2-C's from what others are making us believe.

So we can't really strictly apply the rules of our Tiering System to every verse who doesn't acknowledge the infinite difference between 3-A to Low 2-C which DBS clearly does not.

 

[SITHISIT]

still... lack of solid proof.. always trumps over logic.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

I know. Just saying that people are saying that Kefla should not be infinitely stronger than Vegito when in the story Vegito could probably get to Low 2-C via training alone.

Still Vegito has...once agai...no feats,statements or scaling which can reliably place him at Low 2-C.