Question about layered hax limit

[AlipheeseXIV]

"Higher-dimensional hax" just doesn't exist, man.

It's not even a matter of "physically". A 3D guy with a NEP concept would suddenly be able to get targeted by a standard 4D guy just because said guy is 4D??

Well at least for me, this is not even close to what I was actually talking about. I'm not saying that a 4D character simply because they are 4D would be able to interact with 3D NEP even if the 4D character was never shown to have NPI for NEP, I agree this is dumb an textbook NLF. I was strictly stating that both characters have the same exact ability, can interact with the same exact ability, just that the lower dimensional character would have layers, whilst the higher dimensional one would lack said layers.

 

[Arkenis]

Yeah same way dimensional tiering works for ap it would be the same regardless of layers. Someone could be infinitely into 2-A and won’t matter if its against a low 1-C.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I keep seeing arguments for both sides, both equally compelling lol. I really just wanna know which argument is treated as truth for the site itself, rather than what you guys personally think (even if it has been logical)

 

[Arkenis]

I keep seeing arguments for both sides, both equally compelling lol. I really just wanna know which argument is treated as truth for the site itself, rather than what you guys personally think (even if it has been logical)

Im like 80% sure higher d hax trump layered hax regardless.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

It is true, tho. The only reason it wouldn't would be, at most, because we want to avoid NLF. It makes no sense whatsoever that a guy having acausality type 5 would only be "12D" when acausality isn't intrinsically linked to dimensionality. You can argue it's different with qualitative superiority, but certainly not with quantitative ones.

The example with NEP is even worse. What do you mean you have a "non-existent body but only on the scale of 12D" ???. Like what, when the guy would suddenly get into a 13D realm his body will not be NEP anymore??

That goes more into the idea that we actually Grant Acausality Type 5 even though it is logically impossible to tier; thus a limitation is placed.
any Acausality type 5 characters in the wiki are all fake users of it as one cannot be truly unbound by Causality.

NEP afaik, shouldn't be affected regardless of dimensional level, except they too would need a feat that they can exist without a plane of existence to latch on to.
Again this also plays with the idea that no one can truly be fully Nonexistent, so of course,e limitation is set, and that limitation is the fact that they would need proof to be able to actually live or exist or do anything noteworthy without any more plane of existence to latch on to became relevant

 

[SweetDao]

That goes more into the idea that we actually Grant Acausality Type 5 even though it is logically impossible to tier; thus a limitation is placed.

I never stated that acausality type 5 doesn't have a limitation. I said "acausality type 5" and not "True Acausality" for that reason.
As for the limitation? Isn't "being Acausal" a quality of a being? So then the limitation is purely qualitative, not quantitative.
If you wish to argue that "dimensionality" can impact "being unbound by causality", go on, I'll be happy to read your thought on it.

any Acausality type 5 characters in the wiki are all fake users of it as one cannot be truly unbound by Causality.

That's fine, I never argued against that.

NEP afaik, shouldn't be affected regardless of dimensional level, except they too would need a feat that they can exist without a plane of existence to latch on to.

I don't see your point. You're just saying "well, it's true NEP isn't dimensioned, but the guy can be limited to the plane he lives in" which is like... something that works for everyone? Of course, if you nuke his planet and he can't breathe in space, you can curb stomp him without affecting his NEP.
I'm talking purely about his fundamental quality. If the NEP (nonexistent concept) guy is 3D while another being is 5D and whishes to use CM against him, tell me how the fact that "he is 5D" would help him in the slightest to affect something nonexistent.

Again this also plays with the idea that no one can truly be fully Nonexistent, so of course,e limitation is set, and that limitation is the fact that they would need proof to be able to actually live or exist or do anything noteworthy without any more plane of existence to latch on to became relevant

This is irrelevant. No one take a "I'm nonexistent" statement to mean they are boundless. We take it as a specific ability/quality of the character.

 

[SweetDao]

Abilities that in terms of pure power are qualitatively superior to the physical stats of the character, e.g. a physically Tier 7 character capable of casting a 1-A fireball, or hax which has potency qualitatively superior to the baseline potency, e.g. soul hax which can affect a character that sees them as mere fiction.

The typical way for an ability to be proven as being smurf in the aspect is it having showings or statements of being able to affect a character, which it shouldn't due to them transcending them in a way that it would require such a higher potency to affect them. A typical example would be affecting characters which see them as mere fiction. See here for details on why characters with certain transcendence resist certain things.

It's important to separate the case of Power or Potency from the case of Range or Area of Effect. A higher-dimensional character might be immune to regular mind manipulation due to being outside its range, but not due to their mind being fundamentally infinitely harder to affect. Of course, exceptions may apply if there are statements or feats of the opposite.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I don't see your point. You're just saying "well, it's true NEP isn't dimensioned, but the guy can be limited to the plane he lives in" which is like... something that works for everyone? Of course, if you nuke his planet and he can't breathe in space, you can curb stomp him without affecting his NEP.
I'm talking purely about his fundamental quality. If the NEP (nonexistent concept) guy is 3D while another being is 5D and whishes to use CM against him, tell me how the fact that "he is 5D" would help him in the slightest to affect something nonexistent.

It is more so in the situation of a versus fight.
It will be assumed that it is not dimensioned.
In the sense that without the plane that it can only latch on to (Or has a feat of latching on to do anything noteworthy), it is irrelevant

So the if one is said to be NEP but also is 12D in the sense it can latch to that plane, someone would need to nuke it to such a level to completely subdue it

Now going back to causality. It is rather the same in the fact that unless it is shown also unbound on whatever fundamentals of causality on a higher dimension (or said higher dimension in whatever verse he is matched against has far more complex causality in terms of dimension) he won't be assumed unbound in such levels

 

[SweetDao]

It will be assumed that it is not dimensioned.
In the sense that without the plane that it can only latch on to (Or has a feat of latching on to do anything noteworthy), it is irrelevant

I don't understand your thing. Assume a guy is the embodiment of the Void (and has whatever NEP you want), he doesn't have a "plane to latch on" as you say, he just is Void.

So the if one is said to be NEP but also is 12D in the sense it can latch to that plane, someone would need to nuke it to such a level to completely subdue it

So now NEP is dimensioned? "Oh yeah, cool, you have a 12D nonexistence" type of shit. It's just goofy and illogical. The quality of "being nonexistent" is unrelated to the dimensionality of the character. You're mixing stuff.

That I have a nonexistent concept is completely unrelated to me being 3D, 4D, 12D... You could probably beat me up thanks to your physical stats IF you're a higher-dimensional being, but it doesn't mean you could affect my NEP with a regular CM. Same, if you nuke my universe, I would most likely die, but it doesn't mean you "won over" my NEP, you just circumvented the problem by nuking everything.

Now going back to causality. It is rather the same in the fact that unless it is shown also unbound on whatever fundamentals of causality on a higher dimension (or said higher dimension in whatever verse he is matched against has far more complex causality in terms of dimension) he won't be assumed unbound in such levels

Give me a proof that higher dimensions have another causality system or works differently beside range. I also do hope, after reading your statement, that you're giving Acausality type 4 at the very least to every higher-dimensional character you've done on the wiki too, since according to you "they wouldn't be on the baseline causality system but on a more complex one".

And again, you're mixing stuff up. You're saying "actually, the guy is unbound by causality, which is a quality, but if you put him in a +1D realm, he loses that status" which is incoherent.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

That I have a nonexistent concept is completely unrelated to me being 3D, 4D, 12D... You could probably beat me up thanks to your physical stats IF you're a higher-dimensional being, but it doesn't mean you could affect my NEP with a regular CM. Same, if you nuke my universe, I would most likely die, but it doesn't mean you "won over" my NEP, you just circumvented the problem by nuking everything.

I think you're confusing what Jedi is saying, I believe he's referring moreso to my original question which is that both characters have the same ability and can thus interact with each other and by proxy one would be superior to the other. He's not saying that a completely separate ability (like CM, etc) could bypass NEP by nature of being higher dimensional

 

[SweetDao]

I think you're confusing what Jedi is saying, I believe he's referring moreso to my original question which is that both characters have the same ability and can thus interact with each other and by proxy one would be superior to the other. He's not saying that a completely separate ability (like CM, etc) could bypass NEP by nature of being higher dimensional

We discussed on discord, and ultimately I'd say we agree with each other. Just the current standard is a bit wacky, so I intend to make a thread about it.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

We discussed on discord, and ultimately I'd say we agree with each other. Just the current standard is a bit wacky, so I intend to make a thread about it.

So I heard, good luck with that thread man idk when you'll be making it but I'm def gonna be on the lookout to follow it

 

[Voidnether]

Why would a qualitative difference between them allows them to bypass said immunity that works on a quantitative scale despite the qualitative one, just isn't able to interact them at all and they don't have the feats to do so? How would it even defeat them lmao, by seeing it as fiction? That just results to neither of them being able to interact with each other

 

[SweetDao]

Why would a qualitative difference between them allows them to bypass said immunity that works on a quantitative scale despite the qualitative one, just isn't able to interact them at all and they don't have the feats to do so? How would it even defeat them lmao, by seeing it as fiction? That just results to neither of them being able to interact with each other

You have two ways of seeing this, and both views are equally valid in my opinion.

Either, you assume that both just can't interact with each other, leading to a draw.
Or
You postulate that the one with "the higher existence/quality" wins by default since it sees the one below as literally "nothing" (or, rather, he doesn't see it at all).

One thing for sure, the ball is clearly with the higher quality guy rather than the lower one.