Quantifying Plasma: Possible Values

[Assaltwaffle]

After wondering what Claire's plasma sword is capable of doing, I sought out plasma advice from Darkanine on the subject. Also he said he was no expert, he did give a good source for a value of plasma. This value applies to HED (high energy density) plasma, which requires the plasma to be at least partially ionized.

This value is 10^10 joules/cubic meter. So for a gout of ionized plasma, a value can be derived from it. The same can be said of plasma weapons from all verses, so long as the plasma is ionized.

The source takes it further a little bit father dow, however. This states that gamma-ray burst plasma, as well as lasers operating on plasma, can raise the energy levels of a surface to insane levels. A whopping 10^20 joules/square centimeter.

Of course these values have massive implicates for widespread application to sci-fi and futuristic verses, so I would really appreciate input.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also, minor addition to this but does plasma that causes deionization in whatever it makes contact with ignore durability? I cant remember if i asked this before or not...sorry i know this is calc group

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Also, minor addition to this but does plasma that causes deionization in whatever it makes contact with ignore durability? I cant remember if i asked this before or not...sorry i know this is calc group

Unfortunately I am not an expert on plasma; it is one of the reasons I made this thread!

Also I have invited every calc group member to participate here.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Would this simply be the energy yield per amount of this plasma created, then...?

Gamma ray burst plasma looks really, really easy to get inflated results with, much like subatomic destruction... there would have to be a really good argument/a lot of good evidence before anyone should consider using that value. Otherwise, I'm not an expert on plasma, but 10e+10 Joules/cubic meter (10000 Joules/centimeter) is a good a value for creating/attacking with plasma as anything I can come up with, I guess.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Perpetual

Pretty much what I thought. 10^20 joules per cm^2 is absolutely absurd and could get crazy really quick. For 10^10 j/m^3 should we require a mention of ionization or just treat it generically?

 

[ThePerpetual]

Well, this page on plasma classificatio seems to say that at even as low as 0.1% ionization a gas can function very similarly as a plasma- at 1%, it's nigh-indiscernable. I'm not exactly a Hard Sciences sort of guy, but to my understanding of things it doesn't sound too terribly difficult to justify using that value.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Alright. So also according to that article if plasma is approaching full ionization, or nearing 100%, it is found in solar winds and stellar makeup.

So the 10^10 j/m^3 figure is fine for all plasma, and the 10^20 j/cm^2 figure should only be used on "near fully ionized" or "stellar" plasma. So if someone uses plasma explicitly stated to be extremely ionized or used in stars, the other figure can be used.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Reserving the gamma ray burst plasma values for more explicit statements or implications would definitely be a good idea. Kinda like what we do subatomic destruction, as Perp mentioned above.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Works for me. So should we make a page for Plasma feats considering we now have actual values for them, or maybe add them to our Calculations page?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Not sure. Plasma weapons and attacks are pretty common in fiction, so having a page might not be a bad idea. But I'll leave it up to you and the other calc group members.

 

[ThePerpetual]

This might end up being similar to lightning calculations, in that one should be able to demonstrate that the plasma is reasonably similar to what our real-world science understands as plasma in order to use the feat...

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Should we need a statement of ionization for all plasma? Or is that getting too specific? I mean plasma is just a state of matter, unlike lightning.

 

[Antoniofer]

There are several kinds of plasma, like fire or even lightning, treating something that is an ambiguos kind of plasma as one especific one would be a mistake, and rarely that is stated in fiction, usually used in sci-fi, or just to not use firearms (cuz censorship).

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to ask DontTalk and Executor N0 to comment here.

 

[Kepekley23]

I'm not very knowledgeable on plasma, but adding a value for it sounds good. Also, Antonio brought up a good point there.

 

[Executor_N0]

Antoniofer is correct, there are many things that can fit the description of Plasma and will not have the energy density that is being proposed.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

So in that case we should restrict even the lower rating to ionized HED plasma only. Of course the stellar plasma already needs restriction.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

So as of now this is how I understand it:

Lower Value (10^10 j/m^3) only applicable when: Plasma is mentioned to be ionized; plasma is mentioned to be HED

High Value (10^20^ j/cm^2) only applicable when: Plasma is mentioned to be stellar in nature, such as star core, gamma ray burst, or solar wind plasma; plasma is mentioned to be fully ionized.

 

[Antvasima]

Are any of you interested in writing an instruction page for this?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I can, once we confirm that the above criteria are what we want to go with. It would be best of Perpetual replies back to this additional info and DontTalk weighs in.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm fine with whatever gets suggested.

 

[Antvasima]

@Assaltwaffle

Agreed.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The energy of plasma is basically completly dependend on the energy you put in it. Plasma is a state of matter like solid, liquid or gasous, meaning it generally is very dependend on what it is made of, temperature and pressure.


When it comes to value for plasma I always like to remind, that a candle flame is also plasma, but barely has any energy. (According to this approx. 80 watts, with only 0.05% being heat that makes the plasma)

So in general just something that is plasma will not really get any energy value.

If you have some attack that turns something specific into plasma, one might be able to calculate something, provided one can make a good argument for the degree of ionization. (0.01% can apparently suffice , no idea where the true lower bound is.)


Regarding the sources given: 10^10 J/m^3 is fine if it was stated to be HED plasma (whichever fiction should ever do that). Being ionised doesn't suffice, every plasma is ionised.

In regards to the 10^20 J/cm^2 value... as I understand that source, that is the intensity of the lasers that produce the plasma and has nothing to do with the plasma itself. And while both the lasers and the source of extra-galactic gamma ray bursts produce plasma that require relativism to describe it doesn't mean that all plasma that a gamma ray burst produces is like that (only the source is even specified) and I can also not conclude from the article, that all bursts do that and not just some. So I don't think this value is appliciable.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@DontTalk

Thanks for your input. You mention one can make a calculation if they have explicit mentions of ioniziaion, but then that the energy value is not applicable with just ionization statements, rather requiring a HED statement.

For example, would that render this calculatio invalid?

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, thank you for the evaluation DontTalk.

 

[DontTalkDT]

@DontTalk
For example, would that render this calculatio invalid?

Something like that would be invalid, yes. Basically that might as well be a fire sword.

You mention one can make a calculation if they have explicit mentions of ioniziaion, but then that the energy value is not applicable with just ionization statements, rather requiring a HED statement.

Actually what I said was: if the degree of ionisation is known, it is possible to make a calculation. For the most part in a plasma a certain percantage of atoms in it lack one or more electrons (meaning it is ionised). If you know which percantage of particles lack an electron, can calculate how many atoms there are (possible if you know the mass of the plasma) and which atoms we are talking about you can use the energy of ionization (energy necessary to split electrons from the atoms) in order to figure out the energy to create the plasma. However, you will find that you almost never have the necessary informations to do this calculation in practice (or at least I have not seen such a case yet).

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Ah Ok. Thanks for the clarification.

>Back to finding feats for RoA aside from shattering a massive pillar with a wrist-flick

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalk

Do you think an explanation page would be appropriate, and if so, would you be willing to write it?

 

[DontTalkDT]

I think we have not a lot to say about plasma in general, so a whole page would probably look a bit empty. I could make an addition to the Calculations page, maybe?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I like the mention of HED plasma to the calc page alongside the energy value.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalk

That would be appreciated. I can unlock the page for you when you feel ready to handle it.

 

[Kepekley23]

I agree.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Ok, here is my suggestion for the text:

Sectio
Plasma

Plasma is one of the four fundamental states of matter, together with solid, liquid and gas.

A Plasma is an ionised gaseous substance, which is highly electrically conductive, to the point that long range electric and magnetic fields dominate the behavior of the matter.

The energy imbued into a plasma is highly variable. For example a candle flame is a form of plasma with very few energy and the matter that core of the sun is made of is a plasma with very much energy.

As such the energy within a plasma or the energy necessary to create it can, in general, not be estimated without having further information.


Should the mass of the plasma, the material it is made of and the degree of ionisatio be known, one can estimate the energy as follows:

1. Use the molar mass of the material the plasma is made of together with the mass to figure out the number of atoms in the plasma. So if you have 50 g of plasma, with your substance having a molar mass of 1.007 g/mol, then you have (50 g) / (1.007 g/mol) = 49.6524 mol of atoms = 6.022*1023 * 49.6524 atoms = 2.990067528*1025 atoms. Be careful: the molar mass of a non-atomic substance, like water, gives the amount of mass per molecules, not atoms.
2. Next we want to calculate the amount of ionised atoms within the substance. If the degree of ionisation of the substance is x, then this is simply done by multiplying x with the amount of atoms calculated in the first step.
3. Now we can calculate the energy to turn it into plasma: For that we just have to multiply the amount of ionised atoms, with the Ionisation energy of the atoms in question.

Consider that the energy that was used to turn the material into the state before it was made into a plasma is not considered here. So if for example rock is turned into plasma, the energy to vaporize it can be put on top of this calculation result.

If there are other specific statements those can possibly be used to get results in an easier way.

For example plasma, for which high energy density physics applies, is defined to have at least an energy density of 1010 J/m3.


Does anyone have any additions or corrections? (As usual feel free to fix my english)

Otherwise this can be copied below the "Change in Temperature and Vaporization or Melting Energy" section on the calculations page.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. If the current calc group members are fine with this, I can unlock the page for you.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Only thing that I see is a typo... "Atomar" should read Atomic, I think.

Also, would "Non-Atomic" work better grammatically than "not Atomic"?

As far as the actual material itself, yeah, you know far more about plasma than me... so it seems great as far as I can see.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Fixed it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will unlock the page for you. I would appreciate if you tell me here when you are done with the edits.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I'm done.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you very much for the help.