Punishing: Gray Raven | Power/ability removal

[Telomera]

your original argument was just straight up claiming that it didn't qualify for NEP aspect type 3 because they were shown to think and act even though as I and Jedi have already stated it is entirely normal for characters who lack the aspect of a mind or consciousness to function as if they still have one.

That was never my full argument, stop being disingenuous. That was just supporting evidence and only ever constituted a tiny fraction of any of the posts it appeared in, my actual counterargument is that the text you cited does not prove that the actual primal projection lacks a mind/minds. In other words, "lacking a unified consciousness" is not enough proof of NEP3.

Now if you're changing your stance to it "originally lacked a unified consciousness to it not being the same as presently lacking one in general" you'll need to elaborate more on that.

I'm not "changing" my stance. In the exact same post where I argued that acting like having a mind hints at the presence of a mind, I also argued that the text doesn't actually support the idea that Ishmael lacks a mind entirely in the present (which is true). In actuality "originally lacking a unified consciousness" is not the same as "presently lacking a mind."

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

That was never my full argument, stop being disingenuous.

0/10 rage bait.

That was just supporting evidence and only ever constituted a tiny fraction of any of the posts it appeared in, my actual counterargument is that the text you cited does not prove that the actual primal projection lacks a mind/minds. In other words, "lacking a unified consciousness" is not enough proof of NEP3.

Given the context it is enough proof, Jedi has already mentioned it but consciousness in this context refers to mind & soul. This is evident by using both the CN & EN versions of the primal projection screen, the CN calls it unified consciousness but the EN refers to it as soulless. Clearly showing that the term is interchangeable, this is further supported by the fact that the Projection is never shown to have any form of speech or thought and doesn't talk even a single time during it's fight with Lee. The only one who ever talks is Ishmael.

 

[Telomera]

This is evident by using both the CN & EN versions of the primal projection screen, the CN calls it unified consciousness but the EN refers to it as soulless. Clearly showing that the term is interchangeable, this is further supported by the fact that the Projection is never shown to have any form of speech or thought and doesn't talk even a single time during it's fight with Lee. The only one who ever talks is Ishmael.

Could you give me the raw Chinese text? I want to get a translator to tell us more about what the chinese characters translated as "unified consciousness" mean.

Given the context it is enough proof, Jedi has already mentioned it but consciousness in this context refers to mind & soul.

Jedi gave zero proof justifying his claim that it refers to mind & soul, it holds no more weight than headcanon.

I'm not being hypocritical here btw considering the fact that I'm not making the claim that she DOES have a mind, I'm just disputing your claim that the Primal Projection doesn't. Those are two different things.

 

[Hayato5652]

Even if Ishmael has a mind, I still think he qualifies for "NEP."

VSBW Explanation:
Spiritual Nonexistence: These are characters whose soul and/or astral body is nonexistent. They are hence immune to regular Soul Manipulation


Scan and explanation:

Primal Projection
Empty entities created by reflections from numerous dimensions. Shapeless and soulless, these entities were gathered together by the changing causality at the top of the Hetero Tower with a small part of their power projected here to question the race that attempts to knock on the door-humanity

 

[Hayato5652]

Stop shifting the burden of proof, that's fallacious. It's on you to prove that Ishmael's primal projection lacks a mind/soul, not on me to prove that she has one. As I already pointed out, "originally" lacking a "unified consciousness" is not the same thing as presently lacking consciousness/mind in general

Are you only concerned with Aspect Type 3? I mean NEP3.

In other words, is it only Mental Nonexistence:

“These are characters whose mind is nonexistent. Characters with this type are hence immune to regular Mind Manipulation and related abilities”

And do you only want Type 3 to be remove?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Could you give me the raw Chinese text? I want to get a translator to tell us more about what the chinese characters translated as "unified consciousness" mean.

The raw chinese text is linked dawg.

Jedi gave zero proof justifying his claim that it refers to mind & soul, it holds no more weight than headcanon.

He doesn't have to, I did.

I'm not being hypocritical here btw considering the fact that I'm not making the claim that she DOES have a mind, I'm just disputing your claim that the Primal Projection doesn't. Those are two different things.

Well it would be nice if instead of just disputing the claim, you could explain the thought process behind it.

 

[Telomera]

Well it would be nice if instead of just disputing the claim, you could explain the thought process behind it.

My thought process is literally just skepticism. There's nothing more to it. That alone is sufficient to axe powers off of Ishmael's profile.

Scan and explanation:

Shapeless and soulless

The issue here is that Alipheese wants to use this translation instead, which seems to be better.

At the same time though, even if we were to go by the official translation, that would also take away the justification for incorporeality, so Ishmael would simply be soulless rather than having NEP since the official translation doesn't say anything about her being incorporeal.

He doesn't have to, I did.

...

the CN calls it unified consciousness but the EN refers to it as soulless. Clearly showing that the term is interchangeable

That's not how translation works my guy, what the **** are you talking about? The fact that a single word can be translated as having two different meanings does NOT mean that those two meanings are interchangeable! This is actually ridiculous

snip

One more thing firestorm: What's your evaluation on removing NEP on account of there being insufficient proof of Ishmael lacking a mind entirely after her projections were all weaved together? This is the only scan that the opposition brought up to support the idea that Ishmael lacks a mind, but they have failed to justify the idea that Ishmael "originally" lacking a "unified consciousness" equates to Ishmael presently lacking a mind/minds in general.

 

[Telomera]

The raw chinese text is linked dawg.

Give me the text in a format that lets me copy and paste it.

 

[Hayato5652]

The issue here is that Alipheese wants to use this translation instead, which seems to be better.

Anyway, this scan also helps support Ishmael having NEP.

At the same time though, even if we were to go by the official translation, that would also take away the justification for incorporeality, so Ishmael would simply be soulless rather than having NEP since the official translation doesn't say anything about her being incorporeal.

Don't Shapeless and Soulless have anything to do with NEP?
May I ask why not?

VSBW definition:

• Aspect of Nonexistence
• Which aspects the characters are nonexistent in:
• 
  
• Spiritual Nonexistence: These are characters whose soul and/or astral body is nonexistent. They are hence immune to regular Soul Manipulation

This is the definition of NEP Aspect Type 1

 

[Hayato5652]

Are you only concerned with Aspect Type 3? I mean NEP3.

In other words, is it only Mental Nonexistence:

“These are characters whose mind is nonexistent. Characters with this type are hence immune to regular Mind Manipulation and related abilities”

And do you only want Type 3 to be remove?

Answer me, I think you missed this comment.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

My thought process is literally just skepticism. There's nothing more to it. That alone is sufficient to axe powers off of Ishmael's profile.

It's not.

The issue here is that Alipheese wants to use this translation instead, which seems to be better.

At the same time though, even if we were to go by the official translation, that would also take away the justification for incorporeality, so Ishmael would simply be soulless rather than having NEP since the official translation doesn't say anything about her being incorporeal.

No, both translations are what I'm using to prove my point.

That's not how translation works my guy, what the **** are you talking about? The fact that a single word can be translated as having two different meanings does NOT mean that those two meanings are interchangeable! This is actually ridiculous

That is in fact how it works what are you talking about? Do you just not understand the literal definition and reason something is translated to another language? That's like trying to argue that please in spanish is not por favor which is stupid. The whole point of a translation is to get an interchangeable word, sentence or paragraph in said translated language, how do you not understand something this simple and basic?

One more thing firestorm: What's your evaluation on removing NEP on account of there being insufficient proof of Ishmael lacking a mind entirely after her projections were all weaved together? This is the only scan that the opposition brought up to support the idea that Ishmael lacks a mind, but they have failed to justify the idea that Ishmael "originally" lacking a "unified consciousness" equates to Ishmael presently lacking a mind/minds in general.

Lack of having a mind =/= not having NEP entirely, don't know why you're doing this again and intentionally trying to get a staff vote by just wording things in a way beneficial to you. There's a reason why NEP types and NEP aspects are 2 different things. Lacking a consciousness is also lacking a mind, you trying to argue presently lacking it is a stretch and you have no way to prove that. The statement proves it enough, you're gonna have to do a lot better than just mental gymnastics buddy.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Give me the text in a format that lets me copy and paste it.

Do it yourself, you don't need the text to be copy and pasted just post the image to have a translator look at it. It's not that difficult.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Anyway, this scan also helps support Ishmael having NEP.

Don't Shapeless and Soulless have anything to do with NEP?
May I ask why not?

VSBW definition:

• Aspect of Nonexistence
• Which aspects the characters are nonexistent in:
• 
  
• Spiritual Nonexistence: These are characters whose soul and/or astral body is nonexistent. They are hence immune to regular Soul Manipulation

This is the definition of NEP Aspect Type 1

Don't think this guy can even comprehend the difference between an aspect and a type, also according to what he's saying lacking a mind = not having NEP lmao. Even though characters with NEP can still have a mind.

 

[Telomera]

Don't Shapeless and Soulless have anything to do with NEP?
May I ask why not?

Because "nonexistent physiology" on VSBW also requires that "The physical body of every character with this ability has to be nonexistent." Of course, the other translation does indicate that the primal projection (I'll just say "PP" from now on) lacks a material body, but as a tradeoff it fails to establish that the PP lacks a mind or a soul. And no, we cannot cherry pick from both translations. We have to be consistent.

Lack of having a mind =/= not having NEP entirely, don't know why you're doing this again and intentionally trying to get a staff vote by just wording things in a way beneficial to you. There's a reason why NEP types and NEP aspects are 2 different things. Lacking a consciousness is also lacking a mind, you trying to argue presently lacking it is a stretch and you have no way to prove that. The statement proves it enough, you're gonna have to do a lot better than just mental gymnastics buddy.

Are you unable to read? I'm not saying she lacks a mind, that is the precise OPPOSITE of what I am arguing. My point is that there is no evidence that she presently lacks a mind.

That is in fact how it works what are you talking about? Do you just not understand the literal definition and reason something is translated to another language? That's like trying to argue that please in spanish is not por favor which is stupid. The whole point of a translation is to get an interchangeable word, sentence or paragraph in said translated language, how do you not understand something this simple and basic?

"Hoshi" in Japanese can either be translated as "planet" or "star." Does that mean that both translations are interchangeable? Does that mean that something referred to as "hoshi" is simultaneously a planet and star? No, of course not. That's f*cking stupid.

Seriously, I don't get what the f*ck is messing with your brain when you make these arguments. Yes, the original word and the translated word should be interchangeable, but you're saying that this means that one potential translation should be treated as interchangeable with another potential translation, which is not only entirely different but completely ridiculous as I just demonstrated. Read what I just said slowly and actually take time to think about it.

 

[Vietthai96]

Don't Shapeless and Soulless have anything to do with NEP?
May I ask why not?

Shapeless and formless actually have nothing to do with NEP on their own alone, all non-physical thing could be shapeless and formless, as the term itself only mean you have no defined shape or form, both if them can be used to suppport the notion of NEP, but shouldn't be the main evidences. The only interesting thing is empty. You could have an empty thing, yet still exist, like vaccum of the outer space, which is empty but exist

"Hoshi" in Japanese can either be translated as "planet" or "star."

Just some minor addition. Hoshi mean celestial body, or rather every objects that is in the sky, because Hoshi is a very old kanji, and in the ancient days, people couldn't differentiate what is star and planet, every dot in the sky was called star, so Hoshi could mean anythiny, not just planet, star

 

[Firestorm808]

@Telomera

Can you elaborate on the Nonexistant Body?

This is in regards to the avatar/projection or the true form?

 

[Telomera]

Can you elaborate on the Nonexistant Body?

According to the top translation here (which the opposition seems to want to use), the primal projection is incorporeal. However, it does not say anything about whether the primal projection in its present state lacks a mind. Instead, it merely says that it "originally" lacked a "unified consciousness." The fact that the scan specifies "originally" implies that it may not lack a "unified consciousness" anymore (possibly after it was "weaved together") in its present/complete state.

Additionally, lacking a "unified consciousness" may not even be the same thing as lacking a mind in general. It could refer to having multiple minds (since it was made from a collections of projections, it is possible that each projection originally had their own mind) or perhaps a disordered single mind. Either way, the fact that the scan says that the primal projection "originally" lacked a "unified consciousness" fails to prove NEP type 3 or 1.

Since there is no proof that the Primal Projection lacks a mind or soul, we only have proof that the Primal Projection lacks material existence due to being incorporeal. But of course, that is simply incorporeality rather than NEP.

This is in regards to the avatar/projection or the true form?

This is in regards to the avatar/projection. However, it would seem that it would also affect the true form by extension since the true form is listed as also having all the abilities that the primal projection does, including NEP.

 

[Telomera]

By the way, shouldn't Ishmael's type 9 immortality also be removed from her "primal projection" key and moved to her "observer" key since, while it derives from the fact that her true form exists in a higher dimensional reality, this true form is separate from her primal projection key?

 

[Hayato5652]

you elaborate on the Nonexistant Body?

This is in regards to the avatar/projection or the true form?

This Key is placed in the Primal Projection, but the scan speaks in general terms;
it means their nature is the same, that's what the story has shown us.
They have neither a fixed body nor a fixed mind, because their bodies are made of dimensions and causality;
in other words, they do not have a physical body.

are you unable to read? I'm not saying she lacks a mind, that is the precise OPPOSITE of what I am arguing. My point is that there is no evidence that she presently lacks a mind.

I'm not feeling well. If I behaved harshly, please accept my apology. I'm only here to clarify things.

I didn’t provide any argument for the mind, but I did for the soul.
Can we focus for a second?

The Observers were formed from countless or even infinite dimensions. Why would they need a physical body?

The scan clearly states that they don’t have a fixed body or mind. Your problem is that you have no awareness of the PGR story, and because of your ignorance you end up twisting many issues, exploiting others’ lack of knowledge, and steering the outcome to your advantage.

If their form is made from reflections of countless different dimensions, what’s the point of having a body at all? I don’t get what you’re trying to prove here
Even if Ishmael possesses a mind, you can only remove NEP Aspect Type 3.
Type 1 is related to the soul, and I already provided a scan above showing that Ishmael is soulless.

Shapeless and formless actually have nothing to do with NEP on their own alone, all non-physical thing could be shapeless and formless, as the term itself only mean you have no defined shape or form, both if them can be used to suppport the notion of NEP

It is related to NEP Aspect Type 1.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Are you unable to read? I'm not saying she lacks a mind, that is the precise OPPOSITE of what I am arguing. My point is that there is no evidence that she presently lacks a mind.

Before asking somebody if they're able to read, work on your own reading comprehension skills. You outright stated that Projection not having a mind should result in her NEP being removed so the person who is "unable to read" here is undeniably you. Because "presently" lacking a mind or not, however fancy way you put it doesn't matter. She could not lack a mind, or lack a mind and still have NEP. Which is why there is a Nature and an Aspect, never seen someone with a lower level of reading comprehension skills on this site dawg ts is embarrassing.

Additionally, lacking a "unified consciousness" may not even be the same thing as lacking a mind in general.

Yeah, have fun explaining this to every verse where this is universally accepted then.

It could refer to having multiple minds (since it was made from a collections of projections, it is possible that each projection originally had their own mind) or perhaps a disordered single mind.

This is so sad...and just goes to show genuinely how little you actually read, she is made from the projections of dimensions...and causality. These things do NOT have minds or any form of consciousness. Jesus christ this is actually so sad how much you try and play mental gymnastics and stretch things to fit your agenda, seriously.

Either way, the fact that the scan says that the primal projection "originally" lacked a "unified consciousness" fails to prove NEP type 3 or 1.

No, you just can't read. The Projection is Soulless, it's verbatim stated.

"Hoshi" in Japanese can either be translated as "planet" or "star." Does that mean that both translations are interchangeable? Does that mean that something referred to as "hoshi" is simultaneously a planet and star? No, of course not. That's f*cking stupid.

First of all, calm down. It's not that serious, don't know why you're getting so heated when you don't even read half the things stated and do nothing but yap without even being able to identify things. Secondly, the translation is Chinese not Japanese and the word comes out to consciousness which cannot be understood as any other thing other than what it is. So before trying to say whether something is stupid, reflect on what it is you're doing. This is even funnier because someone legit corrects you on how wrong your failed example/analogy is lmfao.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

@Telomera

Can you elaborate on the Nonexistant Body?

This is in regards to the avatar/projection or the true form?

Why are you asking the person who is completely ignorant on the verse what their opinion is? This seems extremely weird and makes absolutely 0 sense.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

By the way, shouldn't Ishmael's type 9 immortality also be removed from her "primal projection" key and moved to her "observer" key since, while it derives from the fact that her true form exists in a higher dimensional reality, this true form is separate from her primal projection key?

Btw have you ever read the immortality type 9 page? Doesn't look like it, because the page verbatim states that in order to qualify for the immortality in question you need to be independent/seperate from your true form, so what are you even talking about?

 

[Firestorm808]

According to the top translation here (which the opposition seems to want to use), the primal projection is incorporeal. However, it does not say anything about whether the primal projection in its present state lacks a mind. Instead, it merely says that it "originally" lacked a "unified consciousness." The fact that the scan specifies "originally" implies that it may not lack a "unified consciousness" anymore (possibly after it was "weaved together") in its present/complete state.

Additionally, lacking a "unified consciousness" may not even be the same thing as lacking a mind in general. It could refer to having multiple minds (since it was made from a collections of projections, it is possible that each projection originally had their own mind) or perhaps a disordered single mind. Either way, the fact that the scan says that the primal projection "originally" lacked a "unified consciousness" fails to prove NEP type 3 or 1.

Since there is no proof that the Primal Projection lacks a mind or soul, we only have proof that the Primal Projection lacks material existence due to being incorporeal. But of course, that is simply incorporeality rather than NEP.

This is in regards to the avatar/projection. However, it would seem that it would also affect the true form by extension since the true form is listed as also having all the abilities that the primal projection does, including NEP.

I previously stated that I disagree with it having a "non-existent mind."

Regarding "non-existant body," I take it that the avatar/projection is still a physical thing to interact with the lower world.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Regarding "non-existant body," I take it that the avatar/projection is still a physical thing to interact with the lower world.

This is entirely debunked by the fact the Projection is confirmed to be incorporeal, so it literally can't be a physical thing. Not trying to argue incorporeality = NEP but incorporeality would make a character exist non-physically which invalidates your point.

 

[Telomera]

This is entirely debunked by the fact the Projection is confirmed to be incorporeal, so it literally can't be a physical thing. Not trying to argue incorporeality = NEP but incorporeality would make a character exist non-physically which invalidates your point.

We still have his vote that there is no proof of a "non-existent mind" as well as this vote to remove NEP so once grace period passes I'll be taking off NEP

Even if Ishmael possesses a mind, you can only remove NEP Aspect Type 3.
Type 1 is related to the soul, and I already provided a scan above showing that Ishmael is soulless.

No. We are not using that translation. We are using THIS translation. You cannot cherry pick from two different translations, that is idiotic.

Btw have you ever read the immortality type 9 page? Doesn't look like it, because the page verbatim states that in order to qualify for the immortality in question you need to be independent/seperate from your true form, so what are you even talking about?

The primal projection key only includes the primal projection. Its true form is part of an entirely separate key, so it would be dumb to list its existence as one of the primal projection's powers.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think the proposal is alright.

 

[Hayato5652]

We are not using that translation. We are using THIS translation. You cannot cherry pick from two different translations, that is idiotic.

Let me tell you this, using the Chinese version just because it benefits you and helps you twist the results in your favor is a cowardly move.

Most players have no understanding of the Chinese version of the game and consider the global version as the standard. I see no reason not to treat the English version as valid.

You only reject it because it doesn’t support your agenda, Lol.
@AlipheeseXIV was using that translation because the English version hadn’t been released at the time. Since the Chinese version is ahead of the global one, he rushed it a bit.

But both scans are accurate, and in fact, the story in both of them made it clear what the nature of the Watchers is, even without me having seen the Chinese version.

The primal projection key only includes the primal projection. Its true form is part of an entirely separate key, so it would be dumb to list its existence as one of the primal projection's powers.

I already explained it in the comment above, and I’ll say it again, though I doubt you’ll understand this time either.

The abilities listed under Primal Projection, if some of them apply to the Observer as well, that’s totally fine, because both are essentially the same being, They’re both Watchers, just with different levels of power.

Whatever ability Primal Projection has, the Observer has it too.

 

[Telomera]

But both scans are accurate, and in fact, the story in both of them made it clear what the nature of the Watchers is, even without me having seen the Chinese version.

Both translations have entirely different interpretations, so using both is an inconsistent method of interpretation. You cannot pick and choose whatever you want from both. If you want to be consistent, you have to choose one translation to go off of. Also, from this Wiki's standards, it does seem that independent translations are prioritized above localizations due to the emphasis on literalness.

Also no, neither scan presents the Primal Projection as having nonexistent physiology. Nonexistent physiology requires being BOTH incorporeal AND lacking one of the aspects mentioned in the NEP page. The official translation only confirms one half of it (lacking a soul), while the independent translation only confirms a different half (incorporeality). Neither of the translations paint the full picture of nonexistent physiology.

Whatever ability Primal Projection has, the Observer has it too.

Sure. But the converse of that is not true. It is not true that whatever ability the Observer has, the PP has it too. Type 9 immortality is an ability of the Observer separate from the Primal Projection itself.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I think the proposal is alright.

Can be closed then.

 

[Hayato5652]

Both translations have entirely different interpretations, so using both is an inconsistent method of interpretation. You cannot pick and choose whatever you want from both. If you want to be consistent, you have to choose one translation to go off of. Also, from this Wiki's standards, it does seem that independent translations are prioritized above localizations due to the emphasis on literalness.

Also no, neither scan presents the Primal Projection as having nonexistent physiology. Nonexistent physiology requires being BOTH incorporeal AND lacking one of the aspects mentioned in the NEP page. The official translation only confirms one half of it (lacking a soul), while the independent translation only confirms a different half (incorporeality). Neither of the translations paint the full picture of nonexistent physiology.

Why don’t you even consider the possibility, even by one percent, that the translation made for the Chinese scan might be wrong?

The translation officially provided by the game is far more reliable than a translation done by an ordinary user on some scan site. Just because the Chinese scan benefits you, you want us to go with that version? Just because you want it? No thanks, I’d rather stick with the official game translation.

Ishmael qualifies as NEP Aspect Type 1, and you can't deny that, it's clearly stated that Ishmael is Shapeless and soulless, because his body is composed of dimensions and causality

If you're that curious about what the actual translation of that Chinese scan is, you can go ask a translator to do it for you.
Also, if you want, you can remove Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 1 Aspects 3) from the site,
but you can’t remove NEP Aspects Type 1, because Ishmael qualifies for that ability.
We can replace the Chinese scan with the official in game translation on the page instead.
The fact that you can’t accept that? That’s your own problem.

Also, make sure to get the votes of three staff members for the NEP before you make any changes.

Sure. But the converse of that is not true. It i.

VSBW Explanation:
Transcendental Immortality: Characters whose true selves exist independently from the plane where they can be killed.

This means the source of immortality is the Primal Projection or true body, the Observer.
In other words, whatever happens to the Primal Projection has no effect on the Observer.

Immortality Type 9 should remain under the Primal Projection section, and please refrain from bringing in off,topic discussions unrelated to this thread.

 

[Firestorm808]

To verify the translations of the original source material, just run it by our translations team.

 

[Telomera]

The translation officially provided by the game is far more reliable than a translation done by an ordinary user on some scan site. Just because the Chinese scan benefits you, you want us to go with that version? Just because you want it? No thanks, I’d rather stick with the official game translation.

I guess so. I've made a request in the translation thread to get the raw scan translated.

Ishmael qualifies as NEP Aspect Type 1, and you can't deny that, it's clearly stated that Ishmael is Shapeless and soulless, because his body is composed of dimensions and causality

If that's all we have to go by, then we'd still have to remove NEP. In fact, we'd also have to remove incorporeality. NEP requires that "the physical body of every character with this ability has to be nonexistent." As I pointed out in the OP of this thread, there is no proof in the official scan that Ishmael's physical body is nonexistent.

 

[Hayato5652]

Should this thread be close?

I guess so. I've made a request in the translation thread to get the raw scan translated

Let me know if it gets translate

 

[Firestorm808]

If the OP stuff is done, we can close it.

 

[Hayato5652]

well...

If the OP stuff is done, we can close it.

The changes have been made, Please close this thread and lock Ishmael page as well.