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Puella Magi Verse: Downgrades to the Top Tiers

The book Queen Mami got her information from is the same one that allows her to absorb magic from across the multiverse, needless to say I would trust said information. Not sure why one has to have infinite sensory abilities and speed to read said information from the book?

The AoC page is kind of vague if removed from context like the blog, but if you would read on (Chapter 9 specifically) it actually shows the World of Witches post-Madokami with only UKG existing in it.

I'll agree that the concept of witches part is innaccurate, but that's only because the revision of it is on hold (Check the General Discussion thread for PMMM and you'll see it there.) Though the writer also admits it was refering to causality, which would result in the same rating anyways?

Kyubey states this is beyond just time manipulation, so its inherently innaccurate to assume madoka just time traveled everywhere. Not to mention, even if we assume every universe changed because of time manip, it only occured because Madoka rewrote the laws of the multiverse in the first place.

The last argument is outdated by Magia Record (Ult. Madoka could have destroyed the universe by merely attempting to enter it, not purposefully either) and WoG (UM's dress alone is apparently a universe in itself), thought ironically I don't think anyone should be treated as Multiversal just because they're omnipresent.

Side note: Funny thing about the lack of speed feats statement, we have a MFTL+ feat and a few rel to sub-rel ones too nowadays.
 
That blog is inaccurate. First of all, multiple universes can coexist at the same time in the Puella Magi verse, as shown in both Homura Tamura and Magia Record. And there is no way Queen Mami's statement is wrong (until proven otherwise).

Ultimate Madoka was stated to be able to destroy concepts in Magia Report, which can be considered canon (just like Homura Tamura) because Madoka-senpai, Iroha-chan and Felicia-chan literally appeared in Magia Record and were stated to come from a different universe than the Magia Record timeline (that universe also showed to transcend all the other universes of the verse).

Madoka basically affected all the previous universes (the World of Witches) and created the World of Wraiths. The World of Wraiths is the equivalent of the World of Witches, but it contains wraiths instead of witches and a magical girl doesn't turn out into a witch after she taints her soul gem, but she disappears and is taken away by Ultimate Madoka.

And yes, the last statement is also debunked in Magia Record. Ultimate Madoka can watch over magical girls from past to future and from the present to the other side of the universe. She can also exist beyond the future, beyond the stars and beyond the infinite universes.

Regarding the speed feats of the Puella Magi verse. It literally contains 3 MFTL+ feats, a MFTL feat, and a few FTL, Relativistic and Sub-Relativistic feats. There is no way to say it doesn't have speed feats.
 
I wasn't aware of a few FTL/MFTL/MFTL+ feats, bring some sauce pls

Not sure about the Magia Repo transcendence thing, given it always looked like to me as fourth wall awareness (not to mention they literally state their universe is weaker than the Magi Reco one) but otherwise yea, those are also good points.
 
There is a FTL to MFTL+ speed feat in Magia Record.

The feat happens here. Momoko jumps so high that we can see multiple stars and nebulae in the background. We know that she if far away from Earth since at least 4 nebulae are visible there. I attended a conference about Nebulae and the scientist said only 3 Nebulae are visible from Earth without a telescope. However, in the background we see at least 4 nebulae, meaning that Momoko is far away from Earth (At least FTL). The name of her attack is Edge of the Universe, so it is possible that she actually reached the end of the observable universe.

In that case:


According to Wikipedia, the radius of the observable universe from the Earth is 45.7 billion light-years or 4.32355382597e+26 meters.

Timeframe= 00:11:00 - 00:15:58= 4.58 s

So her speed is s/t=(4.32355382597e+26 / 4.58)= 9.4400739e+25 m/s ( 3.1466913e+17 times faster than light) MFTL+
 
There are Relativistic to FTL speed feats in Wraith Arc. (I haven't calculated them yet)

Magical girls ca consistently dodge multiple lasers used by Wraiths. They are stated to be lasers in the Production Note and they showed to have all the real lasers features.

Directionality: They travel in the same direction and have a continuous pattern.

Monochromatic: Even if they are used in a manga, they showed to be made of one colour.

High intensity: They showed to be really powerful since they were able to harm Kyoko and Wraith Sayaka.
 
I think Imma check when I get out of school lol, sorry for not responding fast
 
@Zero Not sure about taking the lasers literally as well as the Momoko thing that literally. Though it is interesting that the lasers show some qualities of light, maybe I'll go see if they have some more.

I can help (once I'm done with my backlog of edits and profile adding) with the calcs if you'd like.

@Freadliest Since it seems you're in contact with the blogger, is it possible you can ask them to come to the site? Would make this a bit quicker.

Anyways, regarding the points:

Ah, I see. Well as long as we're on the same page there, that's cool.

Sorry if I sounded accusatory on the context statement, when we add scans here we generally also add the context via summarizing (Adding an entire chapter to a page is kind of too much), here's the link though: Chapter 9. On page 96, Homura refers to the World of the Witches as the 'former' world, implying it no longer exists. Page 122 just outright states that the timeline her shield is connected to is obselete. So when you inevitably get to the scan, the context (not to mention its literally stated that AoC would destroy absolutely everything) is the annhilation of the World of the Wraiths, similar to what occured to the World of the Witches. The page right after also has Homura stating the world would be destroyed. There might be a misunderstanding here if I'm reading the blog response correctly, the feat doesn't belong to UM here, it belongs to AoC (UM scales via being God Tier and other scaling stuffs) for threatening to destroy the World of Wraiths. The UM feat comes from episode 12, but Chapter 9 gives the reveal that the rewrite didn't just keep the multiverse in one piece, but rather destroyed/recreated/seperated the World of Witches (Main Series) and the World of Wraiths (Wraith Arc / Most of Rebellion). I explained further in my paragraph after the next one.

He says in one of the scans presented here regarding it no longer being time manipulation. If it was just time manipulation, then conceptually, Wraiths wouldn't exist though as a replacement for Witches.

Changing a law and time traveling are very different, one affects all of space and time on a fundamental level, the other had a limited effect (relative to the entire timeline, rewinding a month or so is nothing compared to the entire history of the universe) on a level limited to human actions. There is also the fact (Once again refering to Chapter 9) that the World of the Witches was destroyed during the rewriting process. This adds a bit more detail into Madoka's rewriting, so even if you want to ignore her multiversal law manip one still has to accomidate for the fact that the World of Witches is busted.

Regarding the "destroy any rule that stands in her way" statement, as far as I know, most wishes have been accomplished in a very literal sense. I'm not sure why it wouldn't be in that case either.

The skirt and Magia Reco stuff was in reference to the omnipresence debate, not the AP.

Regarding speed: I mean, that's pretty good. Much better than most verses like PMMM even, from what I've seen.
 
Side-Side Note: "I really don't want another explosively angry versus debate"

Do... do I know you? If so, sorry if I did anything to offend you.
 
1) Neither of those show that, unless I missed something. Queen Mami for instance being able to take power from other versions of herself does not suggest those are not "previous" versions of her or "future" versions of her. In fact Homura implies that it is fact previous versions of her since she states Queen Mami taking power from the other Mamis is why Mami died.

In Magia Record, Ultimate Madoka can hear multiple records, each one being a different timeline. There is also an anomal record (the Magia Record timeline) in which Ultimate Madoka doesn't want to interfer because she is scared to break it. In the Arc 2 prologue, Touka wants to use the powers of the Mirror Witch to create portals towards other universes, meaning multiple universes can exist at the same time.


2) I never stated that it wasn't canon. Also being able to destroy concepts does not automatically make you multiversal as concepts can exist on different scales and they are not physical things. Also the basis really shouldn't be a statement saying "Concept Killer Combo!!!" There's better arguments for it then that.

Ultimate Madoka not only affected the World of Witches but also turned it into a non-existent realm. Why shouldn't the statement "Concept Killer Combo" be used here? That is literally the best way to prove Madoka can destroy concepts.


3) Please cite the statement you wish to discuss. Madoka can see all possible universes and all universes that could have been as well as the universe that is. All of that I have seen. Stating that she is "beyond" something is a far cry from stating she can just destroy it unless you take a really generous interpretation. It could just mean that again, she exists outside spacetime.

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The Goddess keeping watch over magical girls from past to future and from the present to the other side of the universe. She, who is omniscient, knows all the magical girls and blesses them. However, she found a magical girl she does not know for the first time in her life.

This is the other statement, which was shown here.

Madoka rewrote the World of Witches, created the World of Wraiths and turned the former into a non-existent realm. She literally erased a multiverse from existence, which is a much greater feat than simply destroying it.
 
@SomebodyData

Thank you for helping out.
 
In Magia Record, Ultimate Madoka can hear multiple records, each one being a different timeline.

Magia Record has multiple universes that exist at the same time as proved in my other comment: "Touka wants to use the powers of the Mirror Witch to create portals towards other universes, meaning multiple universes can exist at the same time.

Again you are begging the question by assuming that the World of Witches refers to the entire multiverse rather then the universe Homura is from where Witches once existed. Also became things that didn't exist could as well describe the universe re-ordering itself as it did from Madoka's wish into a new universe. That would make the old universe, the world of witches, into that which doesn't exist.

The World of Witches was clearly stated to be the place where witches existed, as opposed to the World of Wraiths, meaning it contains all the universes with witches that were erased by Ultimate Madoka (infinite universes as stated in Homura Tamura). The previous multiverse appears inside Homura's shield and is seen along with the most powerful witch of all times. If Madoka had simply rewritten the laws of the universe, it wouldn't have been a non-existent multiverse, but simply a multiverse which belonged to the past.

All this states is that Madoka watches over all Magical girls across a singular universe's timeline, knows everyone of them and blesses them, and found a magical girl she did not know. This is a weaker version of what I said .

Ultimate Madoka watches and blesses all magical girls from every universe, as showed in the "The Goddess and the Mysterious Record" event, not just the Magia Record timeline.

Because due to it being stated to be a "concept killer combo" in a stylized way like a video game makes it seem like hyperbole. If you were playing a spectacle fighter and reached 100 hits and they called it a "world-ending combo" you wouldn't say that's planetary. Now granted, I actually do think Madoka can destroy a concept. But if I didn't this wouldn't be something I would think is very convincing.

However, this isn't an hyperbole. In Wraith Arc, it was clearly stated that the "Concept" of witches no longer exists in the universe, meaning that Madoka not only deleted the cause that makes magical girls turn into witches, but she erased the very concept of "Witch".

Saying that Madoka exists beyond the future means she exists outside time? Known and Agreed. How is that multiversal? Beyond the stars? Similar with space. Known and Agreed. Madoka is not bound to a physical spacetime as a concept. How does that mean she can destroy a multiverse?

You asked me to cite the statement and I did it.

NOTE: I adressed your last point in the whole conversation.
 
I have to unsubscribe due to time constraints. You can send me a message if you need my help later.
 
Gonna reply for Zero Two, since it may not be a while til he (if he) comes back:

As much as I hate to use it, occam's razor suggests that unless its ever been explicitly stated that some universes can only exist at some times or there is reason to believe Queen Mami pulled infinite universes out of nowhere, it seems to be the lesser assumption that Queen Mami got multiverse info from her multiverse book and that the multiverse is just neutral without oddly specific existing rules.

Even if we assumed its only refering to the prime universe, it is constanty mentioned that the fate of the World of the Witches was destruction, it'd just be that she did it so for the multiverse when she made her wish (As it was affecting the multiverse the same way).

Wraithdoka is aware of the LoC and all that jazz, I'm not sure limited awareness would be relevant there.

I believe he's refering to the obselete timeline that Homura's shield is linked to, and by extension the rest of the previous multiverse / World of the Witches.

Doesn't Madoka save magical girls by destroying their soul gems? It seems more likely that she did the same to the populations and moved them over rather than erasing them (Which I don't believe was even mentioned) when the previous multiverse was destroyed.

Using Rebellion as contrary evidence is a bit suspect, since the Isolation Zone is heavily implied to exist (Beginning of Chapter 9, ending of Chapter 9, and the fact that they are identical outside of the False City) in the World of the Witches where the concept should still exist via Kriemhild Gretchen's Ultimate form.
 
Ima just look at the 2-As and give my honest opinion, I'm interested in this because I've been watching PMMM on netflix

Destroyed the concept of witches in every universe before ascending to a higher level of existence to become a conceptual entity. Her multiverse was later confirmed to contain infinite universes in Puella Magi Homura Tamura. The Law of Cycles encompasses the infinite multiverse as well as the nonexistent multiverse beyond it. Has shown to be on par with Ultimate Kriemhild Gretche
~ Madoka's 2-A Justificatio​
IIRC, there is a Heaven Ascension DIO downgrade that I may or may not disagree with on how erasing something from Infinite Universes is not 2-A, just 2-A range. Unless Godoka's Conceptual Manipulation does Justify 2-A but HAD's EE does not, then we may need to remove that from the justification.

Isn't there an argument on how UGK is not 2-A but rather 4-A to possibly 3-A? Or did that get rejected? Probably won't matter.

The Encompassing thingy is why I'm sold on 2-A

So Madoka is 2-A, but worst case scenario, we may need to remove some reasoning.

Homura scales to Godoka + can apparently destroy the multiverse, so 2-A is also fine with her.

I was going to cover other 2-As, but I will wait for input on this comment.
 
HA got downgraded because his 2-A justification was from erasing Funny Valentine throughout Multiverse. The thing is erasing just one person, even in every timeline, is not 2-A. It is just the range of the hax.

Erasing/destroying/creating Infinite number of Universe is indeed 2-A.
 
The fact that Ultimate Madoka erased the concept of witch from every universe is just a supporting feat. I don't think it should be removed.
 
Genericstickman said:
Isn't that a range feat?
Click to expand...
Except what Madoka did was rewritting the concept of "Witch" into the concept of "Wraith", which made previous Multiverse called the "World of Witch" cease to exist, and a new one called the "World of Wraith" was born.
 
Quick question. The blogger conceded that Madoka is omnipresent, that there are multiple universes existing at once, and that if Madoka were to instance herself within a universe, she would destroy it.

Doesn't that mean that Madoka could just instance herself across the entire multiverse (given that she's omnipresent) all at once, destroying each universe simultaneously, thus making her multiversal?
 
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