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Prototype Downgrades

ByAsura said:
Should we get into multipliers, by the way? There actually is a viable method of using them without wank.
Click to expand...
My main peeve I expressed in the OP is that there was no evidence provided towards viable use of multipliers, so I'm all ears.
 
Basically, we use enemies that these characters have canonically absorbed in game, not including playable options or side missions. Also, while Heller does consume Goliaths, this seems to be the only in-game option of defeating them and he gains none of their powers in the process.

According to Mercer, absorbing beings does make them stronger, there's no actual statement that it adds their exact strength to their own, but it's heavily implied since Heller goes from being unable to damage a Blackwatch door to breaking through it after absorbing an Alpha Juggernaut. Also, they get their abilities, memories, shapes and skills.

In my opinion, it seems kind of arbitrary to say it doesn't add their strengths together and gives an unknown boost.

Prototype 1

Assuming Mercer starts off as baseline Small Building level, he's roughtly 18 times stronger. Still Small Building level.

Prototype 2

Assuming Heller starts off as baseline Small Building level, he's well into Large Building level.

NOTE: This seems like wank. Maybe disregard multipliers as inconsistent (since Heller still consistently fights normal Evolved), or just use values from the 8 Evolved Mercer absorbed in order to grow stronger.
 
ByAsura said:
According to Mercer, absorbing beings does make them stronger, there's no actual statement that it adds their exact strength to their own, but it's heavily implied since Heller goes from being unable to damage a Blackwatch door to breaking through it after absorbing an Alpha Juggernaut. Also, they get their abilities, memories, shapes and skills.

In my opinion, it seems kind of arbitrary to say it doesn't add their strengths together and gives an unknown boost.
Click to expand...
So I'm not commenting on the scans after this because I don't necessarily disagree with them; I won't deny that Alex and Heller absorb a variety of characters that match them in strength.

That said, I don't really see anything new being introduced here that supports absorption at 100% efficiency, the only objective proof we have is that absorption makes the user stronger, not that it gives the user the combined strength of the individuals they absorb.

The Heller example is more of the same; going from not being strong enough to do something to being strong enough to do something doesn't give any exact multipliers. Which is sort of what we need to apply them to verse.

Your comment in general is kind of an exercise in why we try to refrain from using multipliers of any sort unless there is a large wealth of supporting information (something that isn't present here any more than vague 'vastly stronger than' scaling), you can see how easily statistics inflate and you go as far as to say that when it's used to breach tiers it could be called 'wank'.

So I'm still firmly against the use of multipliers for Prototype. It hasn't met the requirements for objective evidence I've seen in many other verses that use multipliers, so I won't settle for implications.
 
I suppose that makes sense. Like I said in the NOTE, it does seem wanked.
 
Dargoo Faust said:
So I'm still firmly against the use of multipliers for Prototype. It hasn't met the requirements for objective evidence I've seen in many other verses that use multipliers, so I won't settle for implications.
Click to expand...
In the case of Alex Mercer's Musclemass, it does actually meet the requirements of this site's multipliers. It not only explicitly stated the exact multiplier for its base boost, but it also demonstrated effects on its environment in the gameplay that normally wouldn't be achieved without Musclemass.

The Absorption amps might need more explicit statements to be found, but Musclemass multiplier should be fine.
 
Musclemass is fine, in my opinion.

@Dargoo Here's the in-game description: "Increases strength twofold. Throws go further and all strike attacks carry more damage."
 
ByAsura said:
Musclemass is fine, in my opinion.

@Dargoo Here's the in-game description: "Increases strength twofold. Throws go further and all strike attacks carry more damage."
Click to expand...
The Musclemass Boost upgrade also upgrades the multiplier beyond the base upgrade of 2x, where the overall damage and effective used by Musclemass notably increases in the gameplay as well, so it can be safe to assume that the Musclemass Boost upgrade could give it a 3x multiplier of base AP (and Lifting Strength, especially with the Musclemass Throw upgrade included) as 3 is the lowest integer value that's greater than 2.
 
3x is too much of an assumption. There's quite literally an infinite amount of numbers that can fit between 2 and 3.
 
It increases the throwing distance and damage by a noticeable amount in the gameplay. What would be the safest assumption for the upgraded Musclemass multipliers otherwise then? 2.5?
 
Musclemass is pretty straightforward, I suppose.

I'd personally go with 2x to be safe, howeve.
 
@Noodles Just specifying that it's stronger to an unknown extent.
 
Alright then.

Not sure if there could be a calc on the estimated Lifting Strength required for the distance and height where Mercer tossed that vehicle over Heller's head (back in the beginning of Prototype 2 where Heller was still human), or that there could be a calc made to estimate the Lifting Strength Prototype 1 Mercer throwing an Abram tank at a distance in gameplay. Oh well.
 
That doesn't sound like it can give particularly high values even estimating the LS for when the vehicle gets tossed. Oh well.
 
We need to find any feats of the characters lifting an Abram tank if there are any. If there is such feats, then it could be more than just Class 50 Lifting Strength.
 
Isn't there a feat of Alex Mercer literally picking up a tank and smacking it down on another tank?

Edit - Nvm it was him taking off part of the Tank while struggling and smacking said tank cannon on top
 
There might be, but it would be helpful if it was an Abrams tank or at least comparable to one.

Edit: @Ciruno Fortes Oh. XD

I could've sworn that Prototype was known for its feats of lifting up and throwing tanks in the gameplay somewhere...
 
I think that's just gameplay mechanics

Granted there's gotta be something good

Though could we use Kinetic Energy ffton the mutants, scaling to the Evolved
 
I mean, gameplay mechanics are allowed as long as it doesn't contradict the characters' established abilities in their canon. This is about video game characters after all, so most of their feats in the gameplay should be allowed for them as long as it doesn't contradict. We'll just overlook any aspects of the gameplay the contradicts the established abilities of the characters anyways.

Either way, I'm hoping if anyone here can find a scan of the Prototype characters (such as Mercer or Heller) lifting the entire Abram tanks.
 
DeathNoodles said:
gameplay mechanics are allowed as long as it doesn't contradict the characters' established abilities in their canon.
Click to expand...
This is incorrect.

"Game Mechanics refers to the abilities shown in games (usually video games) that are determined by the rules of the game (examples include hit points, levels, stats, world map crossing in seconds outside cinematics, etcetera) and are not necessarily indicative of a character/entity's actual abilities."

"Game mechanics are considered non-canon, and using them in an argument is considered fallacious."

Granted I don't think Mercer lifting tanks is game mechanics, I just think that you're mistaken in that game mechanics are fine to use when it doesn't contradict the character - which is just wrong as per our policy on them.

Ideally a scan of him lifting a tank would be great; there was a scan of him punching/throwing one a rather far distance posted by ByAsura.

I feel like much of this thread is resolved now though, the 8-A feat has been debunked and multipliers/scaling has been ruled out (outside of muscle mass). ByAsura seems to have a very clear, laid-out idea on where to re-tier Prototype characters to, and I trust that they can help me accurately revise the profiles and include sources for powers and feats.
 
I can go through the threads and see which of them required comparable AP for the conclusion, if you'd like. Doesn't he ignore durability with some powers?
 
He ignored it with one but if it's only Low High then the AP difference means he gets one shotted on all of them

Well aside from the Jojo threads
 
Wasn't vapourisation a matter of heat rather than AP (I recall one of the calc members confirmed that)? I don't think higher AP would necessarily include vapourisation for physical strikes unless the characters has shown to scans of vapourising characters via physical higher AP in their setting.

I'm not sure if we still would apply vapourisation via higher AP for heat-based characters that hasn't shown scans of vapourisation in their setting though.
 
Yeah, I remember bringing it up on a thread that people can vaporize after being much stronger and linked it to the ryuko vs simon thread but was told that logic isn't applied to vs matches.
 
I don't see why you'd be able to do it if you're just using straight up kinetic force though. It'd perforate the body before it's able to break all the molecular bonds that keep things as solids and liquids if it's that much higher, since I don't think these people typically weaponize friction with the air.
 
I'll go through the lifting strength feats in game. But they're not quite impressive.
 
I mean with enough force you pretty much just break those bonds. It's why there's shockwaves from punches or oceans being evaporated by energy or enough attacks.

And I'm not trying to nerf Alex but there was once a time where he can actually be killed by enough brute force like most Evolved. Like him running out of biomass to regenerate, or at least to become so slow on regenerating while fighting Heller.
 
Ciruno Fortes said:
Like him running out of biomass to regenerate, or at least to become so slow on regenerating while fighting Heller.
Click to expand...
I mean, these can be argued as PIS though, especially for the latter when concerning Mercer's previous regenerative feats.

@ByAsura Alright.
 
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