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Project Moon Discussion 2

The moment I'm done with this semester I'm nuking the Tier 7 calcs.

The Whale Calc massively inflates its size by assuming the eye to body ratio of a normal whale, when the Pallid Whale's eye is exaggerated in proportion compared to the rest of it. Also the whale shouldn't scale to anyone anyways since it was literally stated to be nerfed by the Golden Bough.

Meanwhile, when the Moon or Sun is visible, it's possible to directly measure the distance the clouds moved via using the visual diameter of the split compared to the angular diameter of the Sun/Moon (0.5 degrees), and the average distance from ground to clouds, rather than just assume it moved 3 kilometers a second. This results in stuff like Building level sky cutting.

I promised myself that I wouldn't get involved in the powerscaling of another Verse again, but seeing "Small City level+" in Valencina's profile is an Outis-level war crime.
 
ElajRuengies said:
The moment I'm done with this semester I'm nuking the Tier 7 calcs.

The Whale Calc massively inflates its size by assuming the eye to body ratio of a normal whale, when the Pallid Whale's eye is exaggerated in proportion compared to the rest of it. Also the whale shouldn't scale to anyone anyways since it was literally stated to be nerfed by the Golden Bough.

Meanwhile, when the Moon or Sun is visible, it's possible to directly measure the distance the clouds moved via using the visual diameter of the split compared to the angular diameter of the Sun/Moon (0.5 degrees), and the average distance from ground to clouds, rather than just assume it moved 3 kilometers a second. This results in stuff like Building level sky cutting.

I promised myself that I wouldn't get involved in the powerscaling of another Verse again, but seeing "Small City level+" in Valencina's profile is an Outis-level war crime.
Click to expand...
excited to see it
 
ShockingPsychic said:
Indigo Elder would scale, wouldn't he? Since he was gonna fight it?
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Eh, not quite. It's unknown if he would've been able to hole-punch a lifeline through it at the end to save the Sinners. (Also, punching a small hole through something giant =/= scaling to it's strength)

Ahab Story Icon.png
Captain of the Pequod Town
Ahab		So allow me to preclude a few options for you. This beast's hide is as thick and impenetrable as R Corp.'s fortress. All the weapons in the world will not be able to pierce it.

Yi Sang Story Icon.png
Sinner #1
YI SANG		Was it not the advantages granted to us by the Golden Bough impaled in the Pallid Whale of the Great Lake by which we triumphed?
Rodion Story Icon.png
Sinner #9
RODION		Wha? Really?
Faust Story Icon.png
Sinner #2
FAUST		Correct. Had the Pallid Whale been at its full strength, it is highly likely that we may still have been trapped inside its stomach, struggling to survive.
 
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ElajRuengies said:
The Whale Calc massively inflates its size by assuming the eye to body ratio of a normal whale, when the Pallid Whale's eye is exaggerated in proportion compared to the rest of it. Also the whale shouldn't scale to anyone anyways since it was literally stated to be nerfed by the Golden Bough.
Click to expand...
...Not really? At the very least not in the shot used as reference, it's eye may be big but the rest of it is absolutely that massive, the thing's so large that the sinners and the pequod are taking whole boat rides through it just to reach a specific point of their anatomy. It's a very large thing with a very large part. This is also literally the whale just existing, even when it was nerfed by the Golden Bough that's not beyond it's capabilities (And I don't think that's even actually stated, it seemed to resonate quite well with it given that the guy who became a color specifically from the fact he singlehandedly killed a whale couldn't properly get a finishing blow on it until it was removed along with it's heart)
ElajRuengies said:
Meanwhile, when the Moon or Sun is visible, it's possible to directly measure the distance the clouds moved via using the visual diameter of the split compared to the angular diameter of the Sun/Moon (0.5 degrees), and the average distance from ground to clouds, rather than just assume it moved 3 kilometers a second. This results in stuff like Building level sky cutting.
Click to expand...
what. Like, I'll preface by saying I think it would be way less of a headache on multiple levels if we just used the pallid whale calc instead, but... what?

Anglesizing the size and speed of a calc off of a celestial body nearly 4000 kilometers away to state that a cloud is 15 meters thick and moved at seven meters per second? That's the grand alternative?
ElajRuengies said:
but seeing "Small City level+" in Valencina's profile is an Outis-level war crime.
Click to expand...
I really should stop procrastinating on that but to quickly explain, it's less that Valencina is on the level of a color and more that they're a splitter. It was something that got coined back when Ruina was the latest entry, basically signifying that while a team of librarians or R corp soldiers can effectively take on a Color or Alephs, each individual one is clearly a lot weaker and would lose a fight against them. It's a bit confusing, but that's kind of how it goes when the gap between a normal Grade 1 where the High 8-C rating lies and a color is 30 levels, not even as a VSBW thing it's just kind of "They're halfway between this and this so..."
 
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DMUA said:
Not really? At the very least not in the shot used as reference, it's eye may be big but the rest of it is absolutely that massive, the thing's so large that the sinners and the pequod are taking whole boat rides through it just to reach a specific point of their anatomy. It's a very large thing with a very large part. This is also literally the whale just existing, even when it was nerfed by the Golden Bough that's not beyond it's capabilities
Click to expand...
Fair enough on the whale just existing being a fair baseline, but it is still being very mis-measured. We actually get a flash of most of the whale from one of the CGs and a sketch by Ahab. It's eyeball to bodylength and height ratio is, being generous, 1 to 20 and 1 to 5.

The whale calc uses a real life whale's, which is 62.5 and 10.5. The length ratio goes into the square cube math; an overmeasure of 3 times becomes a 27 times increase, meanwhile the height goes into the GPE part, where a doubling just doubles.

In other words, the whale calc is basically 50 times higher than it should be.
DMUA said:
Like, I'll preface by saying I think it would be way less of a headache on multiple levels if we just used the pallid whale calc instead, but... what?

Anglesizing the size and speed of a calc off of a celestial body nearly 4000 kilometers away to state that a cloud is 15 meters thick and moved at seven meters per second? That's the grand alternative?
Click to expand...
The clouds aren't suddenly paper-thin, but their horizontal speed is way less.

I don't understand the increduility. The sun / moon is always about half a degree in the sky (ignoring that theory that the City's on the Moon), without much variation since they're so far away. Meaning the clouds only parted by a few degrees visually. If the clouds had moved a greater distance, then either the clouds would have parted more relative to the moon in the shot, or the moon itself would be a smaller reference. That's how the math works.

And if you say, "Oh, but the Moon size is exaggerated for dramatic effect!" Then Gee, it's almost like artists exaggerate the scale of things in the sky for visual emphasis and maybe cloud feats were a mistake.
DMUA said:
I really should stop procrastinating on that but to quickly explain, it's less that Valencina is on the level of a color and more that they're a splitter. It was something that got coined back when Ruina was the latest entry, basically signifying that while a team of librarians or R corp soldiers can effectively take on a Color or Alephs, each individual one is clearly a lot weaker and would lose a fight against them. It's a bit confusing, but that's kind of how it goes when the gap between a normal Grade 1 where the High 8-C rating lies and a color is 30 levels, not even as a VSBW thing it's just kind of "They're halfway between this and this so..."
Click to expand...
For the record, I think Small City level+ Vergilius is absurd as well. Like, Papa Don manifesting Ball of La Mancha onto P Corp. is maybe one kiloton, and that's assuming the entire park has the weight per footage of a one story house (200 lbs/square foot) despite how much of it is walkways.

Anywho, I have finals to do, an Arbiter's Core to suppress, the end of Lobotomy Corp to finish, and all of Ruina to get through, so I'll see y'all in a month.
 
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I recall seeing an INSANE speed feat in an EGO. Don't remember which one.

There are a few big EGO feats that need calced, actually
 
ElajRuengies said:
Fair enough on the whale just existing being a fair baseline, but it is still being very mis-measured. We actually get a flash of most of the whale from one of the CGs and a sketch by Ahab. It's eyeball to bodylength and height ratio is, being generous, 1 to 20 and 1 to 5.
Click to expand...
Can you fetch which nodes this stuff comes from? Better to make sure we can point to that exactly when you're making modifications and such.
ElajRuengies said:
The clouds aren't suddenly paper-thin, but their horizontal speed is way less.
Click to expand...
That's strange because the calc you linked states quite the opposite, or at the very least that it only parted 15 meters of a cloud (Because for some reason it doesn't link the feat and the scaling images are just... indiscernible, thank you Manhwa art quality)
ElajRuengies said:
I don't understand the increduility. The sun / moon is always about half a degree in the sky (ignoring that theory that the City's on the Moon), without much variation since they're so far away. Meaning the clouds only parted by a few degrees visually. If the clouds had moved a greater distance, then either the clouds would have parted more relative to the moon in the shot, or the moon itself would be a smaller reference. That's how the math works.
Click to expand...
Anglesizing is prone to getting wacky results in the first place but this is pretty next level. I remember way back in the day finding something moved a negative distance relative to the moon just off the top of my head, sometimes art just doesn't quite line up.
ElajRuengies said:
And if you say, "Oh, but the Moon size is exaggerated for dramatic effect!" Then Gee, it's almost like artists exaggerate the scale of things in the sky for visual emphasis
Click to expand...
That would indeed be an observation that would make using it as a frame of reference far less airtight, yes. You can't just dismiss the moon being far larger than it should be if you want to claim it as a completely consistent reference point.
ElajRuengies said:
For the record, I think Small City level+ Vergilius is absurd as well. Like, Papa Don manifesting Ball of La Mancha onto P Corp. is maybe one kiloton, and that's assuming the entire park has the weight per footage of a one story house (200 lbs/square foot) despite how much of it is walkways.
Click to expand...
I don't think a character sustaining a 6 kilometer structure over 200 years while starving makes it that insane of a statement that they can perform stuff higher into Tier 7, no. Keep in mind it's not just a building but it actively demolishes whatever's in it's wake upon manifestation, the only reason they don't actually worry about infrastructure damage is because of P Corp's singularity
 
DMUA said:
Can you fetch which nodes this stuff comes from? Better to make sure we can point to that exactly when you're making modifications and such.
Click to expand...
The first comes from Ep. 5-35, right after Outis says somethibg like "There's a rogue wave ahead! Brace!" and it flashes on screen. Meanwhile Ahab's sketches can be found in various flashbacks, and her current office. There's a sketch in Ep. 46 and another in Ep. 50.
DMUA said:
That's strange because the calc you linked states quite the opposite, or at the very least that it only parted 15 meters of a cloud (Because for some reason it doesn't link the feat and the scaling images are just... indiscernible, thank you Manhwa art quality)
Click to expand...
The part is 15 meters across.
Judging by their dark and fuzzy look, as how it's raining the next day, and how the rainfall was specifically referenced in a later chapter (see these Images), I'm assuming these are nimbostratus clouds, which are 2000 - 4000 meters thick, so I'll use 3,000 meters.
Click to expand...
  • Space Parted Size: 2*tan(0.5/2) * 3609.6 * 90.02 / 186 = 15.24527527 meters
Click to expand...
DMUA said:
Anglesizing is prone to getting wacky results in the first place but this is pretty next level. I remember way back in the day finding something moved a negative distance relative to the moon just off the top of my head, sometimes art just doesn't quite line up.

That would indeed be an observation that would make using it as a frame of reference far less airtight, yes. You can't just dismiss the moon being far larger than it should be if you want to claim it as a completely consistent reference point.
Click to expand...
What says specifically that the moon is larger than it should be? When it's also possible that the POV is simply zoomed in on a 3 by 5 degree cutout of the sky?

And if we wanna talk about weird distances, why can the calc assume that the clouds moved 3 kilometers in one second when visually they barely cross a ferris wheel and a few buildings?
DMUA said:
I don't think a character sustaining a 6 kilometer structure over 200 years while starving makes it that insane of a statement that they can perform stuff higher into Tier 7, no. Keep in mind it's not just a building but it actively demolishes whatever's in it's wake upon manifestation, the only reason they don't actually worry about infrastructure damage is because of P Corp's singularity
Click to expand...
That's with Creation / Blood Manipulation, I doubt he can punch that hard. Especially when Project Moon has enormous disparities between abilities and physicals all the time. (Like those f*cking fairies eating agents in ALEPH Gear because I forgot they did work with them)

Like, we have an idea from the anniversary animation the scale of destruction Green Damnation Sinclair can do. And it's big, but nowhere close to Tier 7.
 
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ElajRuengies said:
What says specifically that the moon is larger than it should be? When it's also possible that the POV is simply zoomed in on a 3 by 5 degree cutout of the sky?
Click to expand...
You did. You specifically brought that up yourself and tried to handwave it and insist the moon is a much more consistent frame of reference. It's also not nearly that insanely zoomed in given you can like... see the nearby buildings rather than it being extremely focused on the sky, and bringing it back to project moon you see it specifically zoom OUT to reveal the local surroundings.
ElajRuengies said:
And if we wanna talk about weird distances, why can the calc assume that the clouds moved 3 kilometers in one second when visually they barely cross a ferris wheel and a few buildings?
Click to expand...
Notice the clouds being completely clear of the background behind Sancho and Don, or how there's no clouds in sight shortly after in the CG where Sancho mourns Don's death. It looks a little weird since, after all the clouds are several kilometers in the air above them and it's not going to look like they've moved as far as they have, but that does seem to be the intent more than specifically that city block becoming clear and nothing else.
ElajRuengies said:
That's with Creation / Blood Manipulation, I doubt he can punch that hard. Especially when Project Moon has enormous disparities between abilities and physicals all the time. (Like those f*cking fairies eating agents in ALEPH Gear because I forgot they did work with them)
Click to expand...
Abnormalities are directly called out as specifically weird and gimmicky in their abilities making it difficult to determine how dangerous they are, there's a world of difference between Schadenfreude somehow being a massive problem for EGO Vergilius, Punishing Bird going from a minor TETH nuisance to goring endgame characters if it's peeved off, and a Bloodfiend being able to control blood, which they directly use for weaponry and attacks.
 
DMUA said:
You did. You specifically brought that up yourself and tried to handwave it and insist the moon is a much more consistent frame of reference. It's also not nearly that insanely zoomed in given you can like... see the nearby buildings rather than it being extremely focused on the sky, and bringing it back to project moon you see it specifically zoom OUT to reveal the local surroundings.
Click to expand...
You back a POV far enough away, everything closer shrinks in the distance while the moon stays the same size since it's already stupidly far away. Zoom in from far away, and you get huge moon relative to other things. Then zoom in further for ET Clash over the moon.

And I brought that up because if you want object to using something with a consistent scale in real life because it gives wonky numbers, then I could do the same. Because nobody outside of this website automatically connects cloud splitting with nuclear level AP, that is a specific Wiki-ism that everyone here has just gotten used to. Especially given that this feat is literally over a thousand times higher than any other feat in the Verse.
DMUA said:
Notice the clouds being completely clear of the background behind Sancho and Don, or how there's no clouds in sight shortly after in the CG where Sancho mourns Don's death. It looks a little weird since, after all the clouds are several kilometers in the air above them and it's not going to look like they've moved as far as they have, but that does seem to be the intent more than specifically that city block becoming clear and nothing else.
Click to expand...
There are obviously clouds in sight in that CG? The sky goes from being over-lit by the sun on the horizon to suddenly fuzzy dark. And I still see clouds in Don crying in the CGs before that.
 
 
ElajRuengies said:
That's with Creation / Blood Manipulation, I doubt he can punch that hard. Especially when Project Moon has enormous disparities between abilities and physicals all the time. (Like those f*cking fairies eating agents in ALEPH Gear because I forgot they did work with them)
Click to expand...
If you want to scale it this way, Sancho did still physically overpower his own lance and broke it with her own in their final clash. There's still some semblance of scaling there unless you want to say only the big ball applies, or how he was effectively load-bearing La Manchaland the entire time and that the totality of his blood manipulation is what counts.
 
ElajRuengies said:
University Degree obtained, Binah and Hokma suppressed, Claw jumped by sixteen sets of ALEPH Gear (Man dropped once and was stunned the whole fight after, almost felt bad for bro). Four days left, then Ruina, then I'll be back.
Click to expand...
congrats on winning in life so far
 
ElajRuengies said:
University Degree obtained, Binah and Hokma suppressed, Claw jumped by sixteen sets of ALEPH Gear (Man dropped once and was stunned the whole fight after, almost felt bad for bro). Four days left, then Ruina, then I'll be back.
Click to expand...
Free us from Mach 250 PMoon, I beg of you
 
So beside the tier 7 going to be contested (which DMUA and Abstraction seems to opposed it), are there anything notable recently?

As for the tier 7 itself, I honestly more inclined with DMUA because he's more knowledgeable and skilled on the calculations, but we'll see
 
Kisaragi_Megumi said:
So beside the tier 7 going to be contested (which DMUA and Abstraction seems to opposed it), are there anything notable recently?

As for the tier 7 itself, I honestly more inclined with DMUA because he's more knowledgeable and skilled on the calculations, but we'll see
Click to expand...
I didn't even know that one happened
 
Kisaragi_Megumi said:
So beside the tier 7 going to be contested (which DMUA and Abstraction seems to opposed it), are there anything notable recently?

As for the tier 7 itself, I honestly more inclined with DMUA because he's more knowledgeable and skilled on the calculations, but we'll see
Click to expand...
Well we know that bad end shu can use arayashiki. Also ricardocliff scales to ricardo too
 
Steve1775 said:
Well we know that bad end shu can use arayashiki. Also ricardocliff scales to ricardo too
Click to expand...
Another thing I pointed out from BoHOS Ryoshū is that any of swordmasters who has mastered their blade can rend space and it can be tweaked on their likes

Mfs we are now in One Piece/Fate level of swordmasters bullshit lmfao
 
Kisaragi_Megumi said:
Another thing I pointed out from BoHOS Ryoshū is that any of swordmasters who has mastered their blade can rend space and it can be tweaked on their likes

Mfs we are now in One Piece/Fate level of swordmasters bullshit lmfao
Click to expand...
Yeah.
Dihui Star (both), Ryoshu (BoHoS), Rien, Ren, Argalia, and Vespa can all rend space and there's probably more.
 
Kisaragi_Megumi said:
You forgor Roland, he literally have judgement cut on his move
Click to expand...
I only listed the ones that are outright confirmed to rend space. I have no doubt Roland can do it but it's not outright stated unless I'm mistaken.

It's probably going to be retroactively mentioned like Argalia via Rien though. Betting Durandal is another Relic too.
 
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