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So, recently Kira from Canto 9 had her page made, and there are a lot of issues. Formatting is notably janky, lack of scans on her stats (And lack of references to at least point people the right direction on a lot of her abilities), but that's not the core issue so I'll skip to the meat on the bones and say an argument over her tiering has gone on for multiple pages over days starting here, but it was on a discussion thread and I can't as easily loop it into another CRT like when I was doing stuff for Color fixers and the Distortion Detective pages.
Obviously you can read through all that, but to sum up for newcomers and staff;
To start, it's important to explain levels in Limbus Company. Each character has a level, which is something the story acknowledges, with Dante's notes (The "upgrading identities" section of The City's Technology) mentioning that he's limited in how strong he can make his sinner's identities and that limit loosening as the story progresses and more recently the game's gone out of it's way to buff or nerf an enemies to better reflect how strong they should be in the story.
Levels influence how much offense and defense level a character has. This plays into the core mechanic of the game, clashing, where skills are assigned certain amounts of power and depending on coin rolls, whichever ends up with the most power will win and eventually be able to hit the enemy with their attack. What Offense levels determine here is damage and the amount of additional power given to the stronger party, specifically giving one clash power for every 3 levels.
Kira is level 65. She's on par with her peers, the apprentices of the House of Spiders, which were the antagonists of Canto 9. She's a little stronger than the Sinners who are currently at Level 60, but it's not an insurmountable gap, and 3 of them are able to win clashes and eventually defeat her in Part 3 of Canto 9. The page however, rates her as able to deflect a clash with a ring maestro, whom has an unknown level but splatters Don Quixote with one of her hits. It also notes her being able to match Vespa, who we do know the level of. Level 87, giving him an over 7 clash power advantage on Kira, which is almost impossible to deal with.
Before going into the myriad other contradictions beyond just level, let's analyze the feats completely within their own contexts. Against the Ring Maestro, while she does manage to deflect that one attack, it immediately follows her explicitly stating that her and all the other twelve sinners present are not able to handle that situation, which is understandable given she compares it to her master/father Matthias (Level 85) and we see in Leviathan that stronger ones are capable of handling Vergilius, a Color Fixer like Vespa (And Callisto, the Ring Nursefather of the House of Spiders is also a former Maestro and in the same ballpark of power at level 83). From this and her general range of strength it's made clear that her being able to defend herself was a fluke, and should an actual fight take place it would have ended up a bloodbath.
Against Vespa, it's a similar deal. Despite being impossible for Vespa or the others to detect thanks to workshop technology, she didn't try to use a strength supposedly able to harm a color fixer to actually deal a notable hit, but rather made him block on reflex so he was open for Matthias' attack. If she was meant to be more than a momentary diversion it wouldn't make sense for her to take this approach, but given every other bit of context, it just isn't a showing of her being nearly that strong.
Now for outright contradictions, the most notable ones come from the other apprentices at her level of strength. Albina gets reduced to chunks from a single solid shot from A Certain Sinclair, rated as Level 80 and able to defeat Callisto, who we mentioned earlier. Sora as a baseline is as strong as Kira, but her ability to use E.G.O. gives her a variety of buffs to let her overwhelm the sinners, yet the moment Vespa arrives, she's very quickly dismantled. Lucio's passive descriptions go so far as to say him even meeting a Color Fixer in battle is extremely noteworthy... With the caveat he survives. At the hands of the partial manifestation of the Roach Emperor, a superweapon on Vergilius' level, he does not.
There's also her role in Twining Threads, where she's a companion. As mentioned earlier the sinners fight her in Canto 9 and do pull through, and this trend continues when they encounter A docent of the ring (A somewhat notable officer subservient to Maestros) in the form of Rufo. They have their fight, and while Kira is quite helpful to have, it's later explicitly mentioned by one of the smartest characters in the setting that she didn't change the outcome that much, despite the page as of now alleging that she's capable of matching strength that instantly gores sinners, and of course Rufo herself is slightly stronger than Kira and similarly cannot kill the sinners so easily.
All in all, her tier should be changed to High 8-C for being stronger than the Sinners and able to assist them in fighting a Docent of the ring, rather than being compared in strength to a Maestro and a Color Fixer. I've heard arguments that the page as a whole should be deleted for it's sloppiness, but I think it is fixable, given the most of the issues can just be cleaned up with the proposal I mentioned and a little finesse and none of the abilities are wildly off track from what I've glanced (Beyond resistances, but again, manageable)
Obviously you can read through all that, but to sum up for newcomers and staff;
To start, it's important to explain levels in Limbus Company. Each character has a level, which is something the story acknowledges, with Dante's notes (The "upgrading identities" section of The City's Technology) mentioning that he's limited in how strong he can make his sinner's identities and that limit loosening as the story progresses and more recently the game's gone out of it's way to buff or nerf an enemies to better reflect how strong they should be in the story.
Levels influence how much offense and defense level a character has. This plays into the core mechanic of the game, clashing, where skills are assigned certain amounts of power and depending on coin rolls, whichever ends up with the most power will win and eventually be able to hit the enemy with their attack. What Offense levels determine here is damage and the amount of additional power given to the stronger party, specifically giving one clash power for every 3 levels.
Kira is level 65. She's on par with her peers, the apprentices of the House of Spiders, which were the antagonists of Canto 9. She's a little stronger than the Sinners who are currently at Level 60, but it's not an insurmountable gap, and 3 of them are able to win clashes and eventually defeat her in Part 3 of Canto 9. The page however, rates her as able to deflect a clash with a ring maestro, whom has an unknown level but splatters Don Quixote with one of her hits. It also notes her being able to match Vespa, who we do know the level of. Level 87, giving him an over 7 clash power advantage on Kira, which is almost impossible to deal with.
Before going into the myriad other contradictions beyond just level, let's analyze the feats completely within their own contexts. Against the Ring Maestro, while she does manage to deflect that one attack, it immediately follows her explicitly stating that her and all the other twelve sinners present are not able to handle that situation, which is understandable given she compares it to her master/father Matthias (Level 85) and we see in Leviathan that stronger ones are capable of handling Vergilius, a Color Fixer like Vespa (And Callisto, the Ring Nursefather of the House of Spiders is also a former Maestro and in the same ballpark of power at level 83). From this and her general range of strength it's made clear that her being able to defend herself was a fluke, and should an actual fight take place it would have ended up a bloodbath.
Against Vespa, it's a similar deal. Despite being impossible for Vespa or the others to detect thanks to workshop technology, she didn't try to use a strength supposedly able to harm a color fixer to actually deal a notable hit, but rather made him block on reflex so he was open for Matthias' attack. If she was meant to be more than a momentary diversion it wouldn't make sense for her to take this approach, but given every other bit of context, it just isn't a showing of her being nearly that strong.
Now for outright contradictions, the most notable ones come from the other apprentices at her level of strength. Albina gets reduced to chunks from a single solid shot from A Certain Sinclair, rated as Level 80 and able to defeat Callisto, who we mentioned earlier. Sora as a baseline is as strong as Kira, but her ability to use E.G.O. gives her a variety of buffs to let her overwhelm the sinners, yet the moment Vespa arrives, she's very quickly dismantled. Lucio's passive descriptions go so far as to say him even meeting a Color Fixer in battle is extremely noteworthy... With the caveat he survives. At the hands of the partial manifestation of the Roach Emperor, a superweapon on Vergilius' level, he does not.
There's also her role in Twining Threads, where she's a companion. As mentioned earlier the sinners fight her in Canto 9 and do pull through, and this trend continues when they encounter A docent of the ring (A somewhat notable officer subservient to Maestros) in the form of Rufo. They have their fight, and while Kira is quite helpful to have, it's later explicitly mentioned by one of the smartest characters in the setting that she didn't change the outcome that much, despite the page as of now alleging that she's capable of matching strength that instantly gores sinners, and of course Rufo herself is slightly stronger than Kira and similarly cannot kill the sinners so easily.
All in all, her tier should be changed to High 8-C for being stronger than the Sinners and able to assist them in fighting a Docent of the ring, rather than being compared in strength to a Maestro and a Color Fixer. I've heard arguments that the page as a whole should be deleted for it's sloppiness, but I think it is fixable, given the most of the issues can just be cleaned up with the proposal I mentioned and a little finesse and none of the abilities are wildly off track from what I've glanced (Beyond resistances, but again, manageable)
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