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I mean, we have characters scaling to generic calcs all the time if that's their feat, look no further than Boros for an example.
 
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I suppose. It would be ideal to fill in those unknowns and maybe get an exact calc for the buildings that were destroyed, but I guess the page is fine. Although technically with Boros, the generic calc is used because it's a statement (Him saying his attack will destroy the surface of the planet, or whatever he said). In this case, exact calcs could be done.
 
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This page, I'm not sure whether or not it needs to be deleted since the movie is technically an alternate retelling of the original FotNS. Just thought I would bring it to attention. However, it does have several unknowns, rather weak justifications for stats, and some (albeit easily fixable) formatting errors.
I don't think it has enough of its own canon to have a page.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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Social influencing may not be enough, but Genius Intelligence IMO seems fine. Plus she's an important character in her story, so I think it's fairly harmless to have her be here.
 

Antvasima

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I agree with Medeus. Please stop trying to constantly get any low-powered profile pages that you find deleted, regardless whether or not they are allowed by our rules.
 
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Keeping her sets a bad precedent, as that would lead into any remotely protagonic 10-B that's smart being indexable, which would easily include stuff like the Big Bang Theory cast being indexable, which is a no. Her series isn't even a fighting-related one on any legitimate way.

A CRT over that will happen after a while anyways, so I'll just keep her in a list for a later check if the above isn't enought.
 
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Moritzva

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I'm fairly sure Promestein would have a lot of words with you about deleting gambling anime pages.
 

Antvasima

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Here are our Editing Rules for this:

"Low-powered characters are allowed to be featured here as long as the characters come from popular/notable verses that are overall worthy of indexing, they are important to their stories, and the profiles are reliable and well-made, although sitcom characters and similar should be avoided. This wiki's main purpose is to index characters, not to feature fights between them."
See here. We do not allow sitcom characters and similar.
 

Antvasima

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Also, the staff have already talked extensively about this subject previously before we accepted our current standards. We cannot constantly modify the same regulations.
 

Moritzva

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See here. We do not allow sitcom characters and similar.
I feel as if we need to revise those rules, since they still leave a lot of glaring holes. As mentioned, I am sure many users, such as Promestein and myself, would be quite opposed to removing certain pages of more gambling-focused fighters and people. But at the same time, there are far more 10-Bs in the world than simply sitcoms.

Like, I know we've talked about it before, but I truly feel like we've never actually reached a solid conclusion on it. There's still ambiguity. And as much as I don't like constantly changing the same rule, if it's still broken, I'd like to fix it.
 
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Also, the staff have already talked extensively about this subject previously before we accepted our current standards. We cannot constantly modify the same regulations.
Extensively? As we can see in the thread the rule came from, it just got quickly approved and even some staff disliked the idea, it just went across without much discussion out of the inability on making a proper CRT at the time.
I would recommend just doing an staff-only thread over the subject (More specifically, the rule) if you ask me.
 

Promestein

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They're fine. Gambling-focused characters like this are niche, but certainly have much more room for any sort of interesting match than some random fucking sitcom character. There's no comparison to be made between 'random smart person from x' and 'smart character from a mind game centric story revolving around constant mental competitions'. Let's remove L and Light, otherwise, I mean, their entire thing is being smart and non-superpowered, so we may as well not bother, right?
 

Antvasima

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Moritzva:

Well, the idea is that low-powered important characters from verses that are related to fighting and/or the supernatural should still be allowed, as otherwise there wouldn't even be a point to having a tier 10 in the first place, but that sitcom, real life romantic comedy, or similar characters do not belong here.
 

Antvasima

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Anyway, I agree with Promestein.

Does anybody have a link to the backup of the thread in which this rule was approved?
 
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Anyway, I agree with Promestein.

Does anybody have a link to the backup of the thread in which this rule was approved?
Here

For the record, I don't oppose "tier 10s with no superpowers" from staying, but we need the rule over this to be worded better so it doesn't seem arbitrary in the long run. One can push for Calvin (& Hobbes) from coming back even thought they don't really fight physically at all nor have indexable powers, and this easily can be dismissed of course, but the wording should be redone to avoid future needless discussions.
 
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Moritzva

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Honestly, my belief is that if a character lacks any powers or abilities, their character has to have a significant focus in battling in some way. Sheldon Cooper is smart but he's obviously not significantly focused on fighting anyone, while Kaiji/Yumeko are both intelligent gamblers with a heavy focus on battling in mindgames like that, so they can stay.
 

Antvasima

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Moritzva:

As long as they are important characters originating in a verse focused on either some form of fighting or the supernatural, they should be fine.
 

Antvasima

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Okay. It seems like AKM sama, DontTalkDT, Dragonmasterxyz, DarkDragonMedeus, Celestial Pegasus, and myself agreed about adding the rule at least, which should be enough.
 

Moritzva

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Moritzva:

As long as they are important characters originating in a verse focused on either some form of fighting or the supernatural, they should be fine.
We should reword our standards to more directly imply this rather than simply condemning sitcoms, specifically.
 

Antvasima

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Okay, how about something like this for the modified rule then?

"Low-powered characters are allowed to be featured here as long as the characters come from popular/notable verses that are overall worthy of indexing (meaning ones focused on either some form of fighting and/or the supernatural), they are important to their stories, and the profiles are reliable and well-made, although sitcom characters, ones from more realistic romantic comedies, and similar should be avoided. This wiki's main purpose is to index characters, not to feature fights between them."
 

Antvasima

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I do not think so, no. They would largely be covered by the above rule
 
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I do not think so, no. They would largely be covered by the above rule
Would they? As an example, The Joker (Arthur Fleck) is from a rather mundane, if dark fiction.
I'd be skeptic that the movie is focused on fighting, given its note & renown for its focus on the psyche of the character, & the fight scenes not being as great a portion of the movie's content.
I'd think the movie's setting also lacks many evident supernatural elements at all, beyond debatable presence of Superhuman Physical Characteristics.

So under that standard's qualifiers, his status is shaky, in spite of him having several feats listed on his profile under his AP & Durability sections, & being a notable & popular DC character.
 

Antvasima

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Wouldn't that be covered under "some form of fighting"? Or should we reword the rule in the following manner?

"Low-powered characters are allowed to be featured here as long as the characters come from popular/notable verses that are overall worthy of indexing (meaning ones that are either at least partially action-oriented and/or focus on the supernatural), they are important to their stories, and the profiles are reliable and well-made, although sitcom characters, ones from more realistic romantic comedies, and similar should be avoided. This wiki's main purpose is to index characters, not to feature fights between them."
 
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I'd think that not all fiction that contains characters with capabilities notable of indexing are primarily action-oriented.

On another related topic, the standard also seems to disqualify Sitcoms almost indiscriminately. Peter Griffin & Gumball Watterson, while not characters liked by everyone -& in fact, I'm sure several people in our community dislike them & their 'verses- do have numerous feats & abilities we've documented.
The former in particular is renowned for reoccurring & extensive fight scenes happening between him & a giant chicken.

But Family Guy is very surely a sitcom, & The Amazing World of Gumball often features elements of a sitcom, & neither are in the action-genre (At least, checking Wikipedia, with TAWoG's only related genre being slapstick, which is exaggerated physically active comedy.) & I'd be confident they & many other 'verses often have episodes lacking in violent content.
In that regard, those 2 verses with multiple characters with superhuman feats, abilities & other indexable content, fail on the grounds of being sitcoms & not always having a significant "action" focus, & similar could be argued of other 'verses, I'd think.

Speaking personally, I don't like the standard.
In its own words that you proposed, Antvasima: " This wiki's main purpose is to index characters, not to feature fights between them."

But again, not all index-worthy characters may be from strictly action-oriented 'verses, sitcoms included, & if it's not that our purpose is featuring fights, then it feels odd to require 'verses that feature fighting/action prominently when they already meet other parts of the standard.

Sorry to get so 'verbose & perhaps irrationally emotional, especially when I'm not even staff, so it's questionable how much weight my input should be given, but I, personally feel that, I at least, do not like this standard entirely.
 

AKM sama

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(meaning ones that are either at least partially action-oriented and/or focus on the supernatural)
I think adding this is causing more confusion. This implies that only characters that are action oriented should get profiles. Just going by the current rule for Yumeko Jabami:
Is she from a popular verse? Check.
Is she a popular character? Check.
Is she important to her story? Check.
Is she worthy of indexing? Like Prom said, characters with genius intelligence and focused on gambling do make up for interesting matches. L is an example. Fighting on a mental level exists too. So check.
Even by the current rules, she passes most of the tests.
 

Moritzva

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The problem, AKM, is what qualifies as "worthy of indexing". Currently, it's a poorly defined, subjective matter.
 

Antvasima

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"Low-powered characters are allowed to be featured here as long as the characters come from popular/notable verses that are overall worthy of indexing (meaning ones focused on either some form of fighting and/or the supernatural), they are important to their stories, and the profiles are reliable and well-made, although sitcom characters, ones from more realistic romantic comedies, and similar should be avoided. This wiki's main purpose is to index characters, not to feature fights between them."
Is this a better wording then, or does somebody have a better suggestion?
 

Antvasima

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We could also skip the parenthesis if you prefer, and ask for input in a staff forum thread.
 

Moritzva

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Under those rules, we primarily just need to decide if we are to keep "Dude with a gun" pages.
 

Qawsedf234

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The problem, AKM, is what qualifies as "worthy of indexing". Currently, it's a poorly defined, subjective matter
That's what it's always going to be though. You can't quantify what is and isn't worthy of indexing without running into a lot of "what about X though". We shouldn't make an entire page or multiple pages of 10-Bs with no extra features, but a page or two for the protagonist or secondary protagonist should be fine.
 

AKM sama

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Well, I am afraid not everything can be objectively laid out. Some things will always be subjective and we will have to look at them on a case-by-case basis. Both Jabami and Bulma's dad only have a single power "Genius Intelligence", but one is okay and the other is not. Both Arthur Fleck and Farmer with Shotgun are humans with guns. But one is okay and the other is not. But yes, this can be discussed in detail in a staff thread if people are willing to make one.
 

Moritzva

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That's what it's always going to be though. You can't quantify what is and isn't worthy of indexing without running into a lot of "what about X though". We shouldn't make an entire page or multiple pages of 10-Bs with no extra features, but a page or two for the protagonist or secondary protagonist should be fine.
We can do a far better job than we currently are. We can absolutely set at least base guidelines for what we're looking for, and Antvasima's proposal is far better at doing that. That way, if we are debating a page's deletion, we at least have solid guidelines to stand by. I think Antvasima's wording, or some slight variant of it, is best.
 

AKM sama

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Ant's wording is literally the current rule we have, with stuff added in the parenthesis which I think will make Jabami invalid because it's not a fighting verse and neither supernatural.
 

Antvasima

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I think that AKM is correct, and that we should use the wording without the parenthesis for the moment. Anything more than that can be decided later in a separate staff forum discussion.
 

Moritzva

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If people insist, I will go along, but I can absolutely guarantee that this subject will come up and be disputed due to lack of clarity again. Do feel free to ping me there when it happens.
 

Antvasima

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"Low-powered characters are allowed to be featured here as long as the characters come from popular/notable verses that are overall worthy of indexing, they are important to their stories, and the profiles are reliable and well-made, although sitcom characters, ones from more realistic romantic comedies, and similar should be avoided. This wiki's main purpose is to index characters, not to feature fights between them."

So is this slight tweak fine to apply for the moment?
 

AKM sama

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It's fine. It's just the current rule with more emphasis on the sitcom part. If a staff thread is created on this topic by anybody, feel free to ping me there.
 

Moritzva

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Do I have a problem with the page? No.
Am I still mad about Cool Cat? Yes.
Therefore, if he gets deleted, so does Yumeko.
It took all of less than an hour for it to be brought up again goddamnit.

... They aren't remotely comparable.
 

DontTalkDT

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"Low-powered characters are allowed to be featured here as long as the characters come from popular/notable verses that are overall worthy of indexing, they are important to their stories, and the profiles are reliable and well-made, although sitcom characters, ones from more realistic romantic comedies, and similar should be avoided. This wiki's main purpose is to index characters, not to feature fights between them."

So is this slight tweak fine to apply for the moment?
Seems fine to me.
 

Sir_Ovens

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Sitcom characters on principle shouldn't be here. If you genuinely want to debate the legitimate powers of Barney Stinston, this is not the place for you.
 
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Also, neither Yumeko nor Cool Cat are sitcom characters.
 

WeeklyBattles

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Honestly icarly could potentially be an exception seeing as they all have some stuff that would legitimately be used in fights (Carly with prep gaining access to a team of special ops marines, Freddy being able to hack the us military and build IEDs, etc.)
 

WeeklyBattles

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Honestly, thinking on it a bit, Nickelodeon and Disney brand sitcoms in general would probably be exceptions solely due to the fact that their aim to be wackier to appeal towards a younger audience gives them stuff that would actually be index able and useable in a combat scenario, something a lot of grounded in reality sitcoms aimed towards adults lack. Hell even shows like drake and Josh have High 8-C weapons with prep time and Megan with prep time puts Kevin from Home Alone to shame.
 

Sir_Ovens

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Can we stipulate that the indexing of proper intellectual characters showcasing above average levels of human intelligence while also using said intelligence in combat or combat-esque scenarios should be allowed? This would allow Kakeguri and No Game No Life characters to have profiles.
 
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(I don't see anything wrong with the online summary)

According to Derek, the book hasn't even been released yet, despite everything else I've seen telling me that it was released in 2010, so right now I'm waiting until the new movies come out. That isn't my point. My point is that is a gambler who hasn't ever been in a fight before is allowed, so Cool Cat, who has 9-C/9-B equipment and plenty of combat experience, should be as well.
 
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Antvasima

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Cool Cat was just a dumb memetic troll joke page that put us in the crosshair of potential controversy. It will not be added ever, and has nothing to do with this. Stop causing drama. We have talked about this issue extensively previously, so I would appreciate if you permanently drop the issue.

Anyway, I will add the modified rule text.
 
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I'm sure we agreed on deleting the Mythology page once the main clean-up on removing pages was done.
The "rules" section should just be inserted on the Editing Rules or so, although it seems that was already done now that I'm looking, I don't know why Ant finds the page suitable to remain when it has been agreed on being removed.
 
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Antvasima

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I already explained that it is convenient to list the many small mythology-based old books verses in a single page, to make them easier to find for our visitors, and to let us list the members who are knowledgeable about mythology to easily find and contact them when needed.
 
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We can just turn that into a category then link it there.
The list of members can just go to the Knowledgeable Members List (Wiki Terminology), and TBH I think it should be remade as a good portion of the listed ones are no longer into it out of easily only originally covering something that is now deleted.
 

Antvasima

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That is not nearly as efficient, and the current page does some good and no harm. It should stay.

I would appreciate if you stop bringing up this subject.
 
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Well, the staff agreed on that alternative, not what you brought up at the time (Which you just seemingly assumed was accepted out of nowhere, respectively).
I'm fine with it staying if the other staff that agreed on the above (AKM Sama, DarkDragonMedeus, The imp-press, etc.) are fine with that.
However, the way the supporters/opponents/neutral section is handled was still left up in the air at the time.
 

Antvasima

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Deleting it for no useful reason, when it is more beneficial to keep it, remains unacceptable to me in any case.
 
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As said before, so long the other staff are fine with such a change it can remain, especially if it includes the ones that started and agreed on the alternative that wasn't applied.
 
I suppose. It would be ideal to fill in those unknowns and maybe get an exact calc for the buildings that were destroyed, but I guess the page is fine. Although technically with Boros, the generic calc is used because it's a statement (Him saying his attack will destroy the surface of the planet, or whatever he said). In this case, exact calcs could be done.
I actually requested the calc on the requesting thread, so I'm just waiting to add it to the profile
 
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I haven't actually updated the page itself because it was decided to be requested for deletion. The page will be losing its AP due to a lack of possible calcs at the moment, so it'll just be unknown stats
 
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I thought it seemed a bit strange that I didn't see any recent discussion about it. Apologies for my haste in adding it to the verse page
 
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Like, this page isn't long enough or applies to enough pages to be justified imo, this at best applies to 8 pages (assuming the physiology page also applies to books and comics, which if yes should probs be mentioned on the page and have a separation from the movies unless they share canon)

This's about 2 times the amount of people Ogre Physiology applied to and this page is much shorter in comparison
 

Antvasima

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I personally don't think that it does any harm, but we should preferably get more staff input.

Do you have any suggestions for people I should ask to come here?
 
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Didn't we literally have a whole CRT about those kind of pages?
I don't see how this page is any different then retcon powers
 
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I think that Roachman is the one who's working on the Alien franchise, and he also made the page.
Other supporters of the verse aee HeadlessKramer, Promestein and Colonel Krukov.

I also remember that there was a discussion regarding verse-specific powers, and it led to the deletion of Ogre Physiology from the Grappler Baki, but I don't remember what was the thread in which it has been discussed
 
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