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Originally I was going to just watch and not comment, but since non-calc group members are replying here I guess I can. Aside from Tatas own issues with this, there's something else I want to point out now that im looking at this again.
Senna did the feat via using all of the Blanks and using preperatio for the feat. And the main reason why the Soul King scales to the feat in the first place is mainly because "Senna is fodder".
While that is undoubtedly true, doesnt it need to actually be prove that the Soul King's strength is beyond the power of what a prepped feat can muster up? I could be wrong about how we do this, but im almost 100% sure that we dont just automatically scale god tiers above any feat that is prepped and used with outside forces beyond the characters individual capabilities. Unless the God-Tier is explicltly proven to be above everyone else, even when they combine power and use prep. Something that I dont see being the case for the Weakened Soul King.
In terms of individual stats, there's no question at all that Senna and the Blanks are blatant fodder compared to the Soul King. But the problem is, Senna's feat is using much beyond her own individual capabilities. Its using outside forces (the blanks) and to top it all off, preparation, which can make the feat absurdly much higher and at any level depending on the amount of preparation put into it. In other words, on their own, Senna and the Blanks are no where near the Soul King. But when used together and with prep? It becomes a bigger burden of proof to claim the Soul King is still superior. This is even more glaring when Senna and the blanks themselves don't even have their own individual power scale to the feat. Its just a prepped one-time-only attack.
That would be like saying Momoshiki is above Kaguya's 5-A ETSB just because he's stronger than her individual capabilities. Like Senna's feat, Kaguyas ETSB is a prepped one, its separate from her own power. There's a reason why we dont scale Momoshiki to the ETSB just because he's superior to Kaguya's own stats, its because theres no evidence that Momoshiki is above her strongest attack. So what exactly makes the Soul King any different than this when compared to the combined might and prep of Senna and the Blanks? And yes, for once I am going to use Naruto as an example because its ultimately no different and is actually relevant to the topic.
So if people want to scale a god tier off a prepped-based outside sourced feat, dont they need to actually prove the god tier is above it? And not just assume they are because they are superior to the individual powers involved?
Senna did the feat via using all of the Blanks and using preperatio for the feat. And the main reason why the Soul King scales to the feat in the first place is mainly because "Senna is fodder".
While that is undoubtedly true, doesnt it need to actually be prove that the Soul King's strength is beyond the power of what a prepped feat can muster up? I could be wrong about how we do this, but im almost 100% sure that we dont just automatically scale god tiers above any feat that is prepped and used with outside forces beyond the characters individual capabilities. Unless the God-Tier is explicltly proven to be above everyone else, even when they combine power and use prep. Something that I dont see being the case for the Weakened Soul King.
In terms of individual stats, there's no question at all that Senna and the Blanks are blatant fodder compared to the Soul King. But the problem is, Senna's feat is using much beyond her own individual capabilities. Its using outside forces (the blanks) and to top it all off, preparation, which can make the feat absurdly much higher and at any level depending on the amount of preparation put into it. In other words, on their own, Senna and the Blanks are no where near the Soul King. But when used together and with prep? It becomes a bigger burden of proof to claim the Soul King is still superior. This is even more glaring when Senna and the blanks themselves don't even have their own individual power scale to the feat. Its just a prepped one-time-only attack.
That would be like saying Momoshiki is above Kaguya's 5-A ETSB just because he's stronger than her individual capabilities. Like Senna's feat, Kaguyas ETSB is a prepped one, its separate from her own power. There's a reason why we dont scale Momoshiki to the ETSB just because he's superior to Kaguya's own stats, its because theres no evidence that Momoshiki is above her strongest attack. So what exactly makes the Soul King any different than this when compared to the combined might and prep of Senna and the Blanks? And yes, for once I am going to use Naruto as an example because its ultimately no different and is actually relevant to the topic.
So if people want to scale a god tier off a prepped-based outside sourced feat, dont they need to actually prove the god tier is above it? And not just assume they are because they are superior to the individual powers involved?
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It's not. Proof, I mean.
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You're asking for proof a god who created the verse, and was stated to be an entirely different level in comparison to everyone else is below Senna?
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Sigurd's right about that, btw. It'd be like calling Idk, Palkia's feat an outlier because the next best feat is 4-B.
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If I remember correctly Palkia wasn't weakened tho
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The prime soul king? Obviously not. Just the weakened version.Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
Again, I said I could be wrong about it but im sure that we do not automatically scale god tiers above feats that use prepparation and combined outside resources, unless its proven that they are above even them.
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This has nothing to do with it being an outlier. It has to do with the scaling in itself.The real cal howard said:
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What proof is there of an outlier?
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If this at me, what if he's previously made dimensions with stars? I don't see why we'd assume the dimensions source of light isn't an actual star.The real cal howard said:
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Again, im not claiming this is an outlier. I never said it was.
Im questioning the validity of the scaling in itself. As in, why is it being automatically assumed that the Weakened Soul King (again, weakened) is above the combined forces of everyone in the entire Bleachverse? Even when people use prep? Like my previous example, we dont scale Momoshiki above Kaguya's 5-A ETSB because there's no evidence that he's superior to it.
So what evidence proves that the Soul King would be above Senna and the Blanks, even when they use prep and pool their resources together to do their feat?
Im questioning the validity of the scaling in itself. As in, why is it being automatically assumed that the Weakened Soul King (again, weakened) is above the combined forces of everyone in the entire Bleachverse? Even when people use prep? Like my previous example, we dont scale Momoshiki above Kaguya's 5-A ETSB because there's no evidence that he's superior to it.
So what evidence proves that the Soul King would be above Senna and the Blanks, even when they use prep and pool their resources together to do their feat?
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Okay.TataHakai said:
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I know I am not allowed to comment in this thread, but I want to supply evidence to Hueco Mundo been a planet.
If Hueco Mundo included in the calc it would yield 1.7916e+25
Hueco Mundo is parallel to the Living World and Soul Society in the data book design.
Hueco Mundo is parallel to the Living World and Soul Society in the data book design.
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I'm okay with that.
I did this calculation with the instructions that Imade passed me, I think it's best to contact him.
I did this calculation with the instructions that Imade passed me, I think it's best to contact him.
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Seems good at first glance. Out of curiosity what would Mimihagi's feat yield of stopping the merging of 3 planets in mere seconds?
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destroying/merging 3 planets is 5-B?
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I'd imagine that'll be 5-B+ to 5-A.
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>"00:52 , It is at this moment that the Planets are approaching.
>1:38:39 , it is shown how close the Planets have come and this is where Senna begins to push them away.
>It is quoted that the worlds would collide in about 1 hour"
>However, at around 44 minutes in, Toshiro states "It's been 24 hours since the valley of screams has appeared" and we know that the valley of screams is what was causing the planets to begin approaching one another
All this is incorrect. The Valley of Screams does nothing, it's reported by Urahara and Toshiro that what the Valley of Screams is doing is acting like a lens connecting the two worlds and showing each other to the other. That is all. Nothing more.
The Valley of Screams does not push them together. The Shinenjuu (Senna) does. This is the whole plot of the movie. Ganryu wanted Senna so he can use the Valley of Screams to force the planets together. If the Valley of Screams pushed the planets together then why the hell was Senna needed? She's the key to pushing the planets together.
57-59 mins in the movie Mayuri explains what Ganryu's goal is and his intentions with Senna. He explains that the Shinenjuu will force the worlds to collides using the Blanks and the Valley of Screams. This is the first time we learn of the planets on the verge to collide and this is when Mayuri gives the 1 hour timeframe.
So Tata is incorrect on this part.
>we literally have ichigo going on dates, spending days at home, sleeping and waking up
That's wrong too. The movie happens in less than 40ish hours.
The movie begins in the middle of a day. On this day Ichigo meets Senna, learns about the Shinenjuu, takes Senna out for the day and meets Ganryu's henchmens that night. This day ends with Senna sleeping over.
The next day Ichigo takes Senna on another trip until interrupted by Ganryu and the Gotei 13. This day ends with Ichigo leaving to save Senna and the final fight in the Valley of Screams with everyon involved. Senna dies after the fight from stopping the world's from crashing.
I see four options to move forward from here to appease everyone:
1) We recalc Senna's feat as it's still a feat of her pushing two planets away from each other.
2) We use Bambu's calc of pushing 3 planets away from each other and give this result to Almighty Yhwach, Mimihagi and the Weakened Soul King.
3) We use the destruction of 3 worlds as Askin's statement that other's brought up. Tokinada supports this statement as well in the Novel when he repeats that the Soul King could just destroy the worlds as well.
4) We actually calc the Weakened Soul King's feat of holding back the three worlds as it's superior to Senna's holding back of just two worlds:
Even though the Soul King was in it's decrepit and weakened state, it still had the power to hold the world's apart as after the Soul King was accidentally killed by Ichigo, the world's immediately began to merge back into one, the original world. However, the worlds were saved from this because Mimihagi took the Soul King's place and became the new Soul King. The new lynchpin and used it's power to hold back the worlds from merging and keeping them in their separate places and it stops the merging instantly upon taking the Soul King's position.
So the Soul King could overcome what Senna did with 3 world's instantly. Faster than her and with an additional planet. We could just calc this as well for Mimihagi and we know Almighty Yhwach > Mimihagi and Weakened Soul King > Mimihagi.
Edit: Either way, the first part of Senna's feat is correct, we can recalc the second part if wanted and for her profile when it's eventually made. Option 4 is the most accurate in my opinion as it's directly calcing their feat as Soul King and it's superior to Senna's either way since it's faster and an additional planet. We were just scaling them above Senna since we didn't have a calc of the planets anyway.
>1:38:39 , it is shown how close the Planets have come and this is where Senna begins to push them away.
>It is quoted that the worlds would collide in about 1 hour"
>However, at around 44 minutes in, Toshiro states "It's been 24 hours since the valley of screams has appeared" and we know that the valley of screams is what was causing the planets to begin approaching one another
All this is incorrect. The Valley of Screams does nothing, it's reported by Urahara and Toshiro that what the Valley of Screams is doing is acting like a lens connecting the two worlds and showing each other to the other. That is all. Nothing more.
The Valley of Screams does not push them together. The Shinenjuu (Senna) does. This is the whole plot of the movie. Ganryu wanted Senna so he can use the Valley of Screams to force the planets together. If the Valley of Screams pushed the planets together then why the hell was Senna needed? She's the key to pushing the planets together.
57-59 mins in the movie Mayuri explains what Ganryu's goal is and his intentions with Senna. He explains that the Shinenjuu will force the worlds to collides using the Blanks and the Valley of Screams. This is the first time we learn of the planets on the verge to collide and this is when Mayuri gives the 1 hour timeframe.
So Tata is incorrect on this part.
>we literally have ichigo going on dates, spending days at home, sleeping and waking up
That's wrong too. The movie happens in less than 40ish hours.
The movie begins in the middle of a day. On this day Ichigo meets Senna, learns about the Shinenjuu, takes Senna out for the day and meets Ganryu's henchmens that night. This day ends with Senna sleeping over.
The next day Ichigo takes Senna on another trip until interrupted by Ganryu and the Gotei 13. This day ends with Ichigo leaving to save Senna and the final fight in the Valley of Screams with everyon involved. Senna dies after the fight from stopping the world's from crashing.
I see four options to move forward from here to appease everyone:
1) We recalc Senna's feat as it's still a feat of her pushing two planets away from each other.
2) We use Bambu's calc of pushing 3 planets away from each other and give this result to Almighty Yhwach, Mimihagi and the Weakened Soul King.
3) We use the destruction of 3 worlds as Askin's statement that other's brought up. Tokinada supports this statement as well in the Novel when he repeats that the Soul King could just destroy the worlds as well.
4) We actually calc the Weakened Soul King's feat of holding back the three worlds as it's superior to Senna's holding back of just two worlds:
Even though the Soul King was in it's decrepit and weakened state, it still had the power to hold the world's apart as after the Soul King was accidentally killed by Ichigo, the world's immediately began to merge back into one, the original world. However, the worlds were saved from this because Mimihagi took the Soul King's place and became the new Soul King. The new lynchpin and used it's power to hold back the worlds from merging and keeping them in their separate places and it stops the merging instantly upon taking the Soul King's position.
So the Soul King could overcome what Senna did with 3 world's instantly. Faster than her and with an additional planet. We could just calc this as well for Mimihagi and we know Almighty Yhwach > Mimihagi and Weakened Soul King > Mimihagi.
Edit: Either way, the first part of Senna's feat is correct, we can recalc the second part if wanted and for her profile when it's eventually made. Option 4 is the most accurate in my opinion as it's directly calcing their feat as Soul King and it's superior to Senna's either way since it's faster and an additional planet. We were just scaling them above Senna since we didn't have a calc of the planets anyway.
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Do we have a profile for Senna?
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no we do not
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Imade made some good arguments
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I will be fair here. @IMadeThisOn8-1-2017's counterpoints sound well-supported with other sources like the novel and the manga. So, I will switch my agreement with the OP to neutral as I will wait for other points and review others before making my final decision.
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As far as I'm concerned Imade did not refute a single claim about the second calc
Thus I'm assuming he's not against the downgrade UNLESS there is a recalc, so they're to be downgraded to 5-B unless there's a recalc
Though i disagree with your counter claims in terms of the first calculation too, however it's nearly 1 am here so I won't be able to reply until tommorow
Thus I'm assuming he's not against the downgrade UNLESS there is a recalc, so they're to be downgraded to 5-B unless there's a recalc
Though i disagree with your counter claims in terms of the first calculation too, however it's nearly 1 am here so I won't be able to reply until tommorow
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I don't see what there is to refute about the Second Calc.
The second calc is about Senna overcoming the planet's gravity and pushing them back into place.
At point A the movie tells us the planets are begining to move back.
At point B which is 4 seconds later we're told that the planets have stopped colliding and the screen is blurred from the white screen bleeding through. So we at least know Senna stopped the gravity in 4 seconds.
At point C which is 4.88 seconds after point A the screen cuts to white and the whole issue is over to our knowledge.
So Senna overcomes the gravity in 4 seconds and stops them. And then it cuts to white and she had pushed them back to their positions in an unknown off-screen timeframe.
So we could recalc Senna's feat with that information.
Or we can calc Mimihagi doing this same thing except in a singular panel of the manga and with an additional panel as that is literally the God Tier's feat of scaling and it's superior to Senna's as I showed the scans above for.
The second calc is about Senna overcoming the planet's gravity and pushing them back into place.
At point A the movie tells us the planets are begining to move back.
At point B which is 4 seconds later we're told that the planets have stopped colliding and the screen is blurred from the white screen bleeding through. So we at least know Senna stopped the gravity in 4 seconds.
At point C which is 4.88 seconds after point A the screen cuts to white and the whole issue is over to our knowledge.
So Senna overcomes the gravity in 4 seconds and stops them. And then it cuts to white and she had pushed them back to their positions in an unknown off-screen timeframe.
So we could recalc Senna's feat with that information.
Or we can calc Mimihagi doing this same thing except in a singular panel of the manga and with an additional panel as that is literally the God Tier's feat of scaling and it's superior to Senna's as I showed the scans above for.
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I'd say the last suggestion is best. While could jusct calc Senna and say the SK tiers are far stronger, that seems more like a cop out and laziness when its actually possible to figure out Mimi's feat.
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Alright i have to leave for work in a while so my replies may be limited, i just wanted to reply to Imade
"The second calc is about Senna overcoming the planet's gravity and pushing them back into place."
Yes and No, the second calc isn't solely about overcoming the planet's gravity (Which is 5-B by the way), it also assumes it pushed the planets back to their positions in 4 seconds, aka it pushed them back 2400 kilometers in 4 seconds, i proved numerous times in the OP that this isn't the case.
" And then it cuts to white and she had pushed them back to their positions in an unknown off-screen timeframe."
Alrighty, i see that you understand my problem with the calc, she did not push them back to their positions in 4.88 seconds like the calculation suggests, that's where 5-A comes from by the way.
"The Valley of Screams does not push them together. The Shinenjuu (Senna) does. "
Which is only due to the blanks, which is another point that i should've brought up, the explosions of the blanks is what causes the planets to collide but i suppose the 1 hour timeframe is fine after some more thought, though it doesn't scale to anyone except the SK and co as it's not with Senna's power.
"The second calc is about Senna overcoming the planet's gravity and pushing them back into place."
Yes and No, the second calc isn't solely about overcoming the planet's gravity (Which is 5-B by the way), it also assumes it pushed the planets back to their positions in 4 seconds, aka it pushed them back 2400 kilometers in 4 seconds, i proved numerous times in the OP that this isn't the case.
" And then it cuts to white and she had pushed them back to their positions in an unknown off-screen timeframe."
Alrighty, i see that you understand my problem with the calc, she did not push them back to their positions in 4.88 seconds like the calculation suggests, that's where 5-A comes from by the way.
"The Valley of Screams does not push them together. The Shinenjuu (Senna) does. "
Which is only due to the blanks, which is another point that i should've brought up, the explosions of the blanks is what causes the planets to collide but i suppose the 1 hour timeframe is fine after some more thought, though it doesn't scale to anyone except the SK and co as it's not with Senna's power.
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It's best just to recalc it first, before doing anything. I've asked a calc to calc in that case.
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Thank you!
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I presume that's referring to me. I'm busy atm, but I'll get it done when I get home tn.
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No rush, take your time.
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Based on a quick read through, I Agree.
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