Problems with Extended Melee Range

[Reppuzan]

@AKM

But I just feel that it's misleading to label thrown weapons under "Extended Melee Range".

It's the same logic as if I shot you with a gun and called it "extended melee range".

I'm kind of in support of adding an intermediary rating in between for thrown weapons.

 

[Agnaa]

@AKM

But I just feel that it's misleading to label thrown weapons under "Extended Melee Range".

It's the same logic as if I shot you with a gun and called it "extended melee range".

I'm kind of in support of adding an intermediary rating in between for thrown weapons.

It's just the range that extended melee strikes reach. If a ranged weapon works in that range it just has a short range.

It's not like it can only include melee weapons and never include ranged weapons.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Agnaa

If it's thrown weapons, then it ceases to be "melee". It's just plain misleading.

 

[Agnaa]

If your magic lightning bolt only shoots 8 meters then it's not a melee attack but its reach is melee range.

It's not describing every single possible attack that could happen in that range, it's describing the typical attack that happens in that range.

I don't see how someone could be mislead by seeing "Extended melee range for throwing knives".

 

[Chartate101]

What melee weapon has a range of 8 meters?

 

[Skalt711]

Agreed with Agnaa.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Agnaa

There's no such thing as an 8 meter long melee weapon.

That's the equivalent of me picking up a school bus or a telephone pole and swinging it at you.

As for a suggestion, I guess I could put something out:

Standard Melee Range: 50 cm to 1 m

• Applies to fighters using mostly their arms and legs as weapons.
• This includes most standard melee weapons, such as daggers, swords, axes, maces, etcetera

Extended melee range: 1-2 m

• Applies to fighters who utilize long melee weaponry or have otherwise short-ranged attacks that extend beyond normal human reach.
• Applies to weapons such as spears, halberds, and whips.
• This also applies to characters who possess abnormally long weapons such as Cloud Strife's Buster Sword and Guts' Dragonslayer.

Thrown Weapon Range: 3-10 m

• Applies to weapons that are designed to be utilized as throwing weapons such as shuriken, bombs, grenades, and chakrams.

 

[KLOL506]

Most boxers have a reach of over 1.5 m tho.

 

[Skalt711]

According to Wikipedia, nagae yari is capable of reaching 6 meters in length. It is a melee weapon.

 

[Skalt711]

When it comes to extended melee range, you must consider pikes as the longest melee weapons. There may be even longer weapons.

 

[Skalt711]

By the way, 10 meters extended melee range is taken from [this] piece.

So, a 10 meters melee weapon is a thing! OwO

 

[KLOL506]

And Keith Liddel himself has a reach of 3.302 meters.

 

[Skalt711]

So, I'd recommend explaining the Extended melee range tier. Before that, we must find the source of where the 10 meters pike is described.

 

[KLOL506]

I also recommend adding that humans are capable of reaching over 2 meters with their punches, like Keith Liddel and other famous boxers in history.

 

[Skalt711]

Can't find the source of a 10 meters pika. There is a 5.6 meters pika that is mentioned in the book Ashigaru 1467-1649 at page 19. It tells about ashigaru.

 

[Skalt711]

In Stratagems 16 cubits spears are mentioned. One cubit is approximately 0.46 meters in Ancient Greece. 0.46 multiplied by 16 is 7.36 meters.

Edit: 7.36 + 0.635 = 7.995 m ~ 8 m. We got the legitimate extended melee range of 8 meters!

 

[Skalt711]

So, I would keep the Extended melee range tier as is. A 7.36-10 m. tier is unnecessary.

 

[Chartate101]

Anyone can write anything, doesn't make it true without pictures or other evidence.

 

[Skalt711]

what

Edit: Stratagems is a reliable source.

Edit 2: The 7.36 meters spears were made in circa 2nd century BC. Back then there were no tools for making a photography. Also, these 16 cubits spears weren't imaged.

 

[Wokistan]

I'm pretty sure the boxer ranges and stuff take into account the person being able to move. You can extent a lot of these ranges by lunging, for instance.

 

[Skalt711]

Yep, that's correct! The meaning of the Range is "How far can you reach with my sword?", not "How long is my sword?", thus making the question "From which point do you measure the range?".

 

[KLOL506]

Exactly, we need to take that into account as well.

 

[Skalt711]

From which point do you measure the range of a human swordsman? I think that the point is a shoulder joint.

Edit: Typo.

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

Yeah, the shoulder joint thing is kinda a general assumption

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

So....in other words, just simply having a weapon doesn't make you qualified in having extended melee range. It needs to reach a specific amount of distance for such, correct?

 

[Reppuzan]

@Dino

Basically. Knuckle dusters don't noticeably increase your range after all.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

@Reppuzan

I see. In that case, I don't oppose to the change.

 

[Agnaa]

@Reppuzan Apparently some pikes and spears can reach up to 8 meters.

Also, exceedingly large characters can have an 8 meter reach through sheer size making their arms that large.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Agnaa

I mean, most weapons in fiction aren't 8 meters long. I don't think we should take it as our benchmark.

But taking that into account, we might want to put the thrown weapons into the tens of meters and beyond section then.

 

[Flashlight237]

And Keith Liddel himself has a reach of 3.302 meters.

You do realize that he slid along the floor in the video featuring him, right? That doesn't count.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we use Reppuzan's suggestion?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I like Reppuzan's suggestion too.

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

Especially as the term is "extended melee range", with melee being the key word. In no way, shape or form is a thrown weapon melee. Long story short, I agree with Rep

 

[Agnaa]

With Rep's suggestion I know characters with melee weapons that would be in "thrown weapon range" (by having a 6 ft long katana). The change also seems like a huge change that would affect many pages over something extremely minor. Especially huge since it's something that cannot be automated and will need a revision project.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Promestein and Darkanine do have a script installed that significantly speeds up these types of revision, but I don't know if they would be willing to handle it alone.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm not sure if that would work since it isn't just renaming the ranges, but the ranges themselves need to be changed. You'd need someone knowledgeable on the verse to re-judge whether the range now falls under standard or extended melee range, which can't really be automated by a script.

 

[Skalt711]

Again, agreed with Agnaa. I can't change every page's range by solo, lol; it will take lots of time to do so. I'd like to organize a megacollaboration between us in order to make the Extended melee range tier problem solution fast and accurate. Though it will take huge human resources.

 

[KLOL506]

I can do the Assassin's Creed section. Anything I need to change there?

 

[Skalt711]

I think that we need to wait until the Range tiers will change.

 

[KLOL506]

Then again Bayek and the rest of the Origins and Odyssey gang's reach extend to several meters with their punches, so I think they're alright at where they are.