Problems with Brobot feat (Mario)

[AKM sama]

I'll keep this short since it won't really affect the ratings. Currently, this is being used as a multi-solar system level destruction feat in the Mario page which is listed in his durability section. Let's go through it:

1. We see the screen is torn into two pieces and falls off. And Brobot is seen in space, the statement- "The gravitational laws of space allows Brobot's potential to be fully realized!". This is clearly a transition effect which depicts a cutaway of the scene from the ground to the space.

2. We see Brobot being destroyed and with its destruction there is also a transition effect that cuts away back to the ground where L takes an L and falls back to the ground.

The profile claims that Brobot's destruction destroyed a realm, but there is zero evidence that suggests they were fighting in a different realm. According to the statement they were fighting in space. And the explosion that "destroyed the realm" is just a cool transition effect to switch between scenes. Like the first one where the "main realm is torn into two and destroyed" but somehow is normal when they return. This would need more explicit evidence to be treated as a separate realm, which is not a flimsy cutaway effect.

Even in the last thread, there were many people who agreed with the stance and found the "feat" invalid (and there was no conclusive decision made then, but it's still on the profile). I propose that this be removed from the profiles.

 

[Armorchompy]

I obviously still agree that this feat is... not a feat.

 

[DragonLord]

I agree, to add I’ll post the Scan from the Prima Guide that describes it as him “Takes this fight Back to the Stars”

And how he “Crashes back to The Whoa Zone”

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with this removal

 

[LuckyEmile]

I guess something to be mindful of is that the floor of this place (seen more clearly through Flipping) is a green vector... the colour green being associated with Luigi/Mr. L, and vectors being associated with robots/created technology/virtually created worlds, and Mr L being seen to be active in that field, would help give further evidence for the implication he's behind this and it's not simply taking you elsewhere.

Apparently when this passed, it was seen as being pretty solid, so maybe it would be good to revise that to see if anything has been missed.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think someone should translate the Japanese text again, because we all know how Nintendo of America isn't particularly stellar when it comes to translations. Also, the aftermath would make 0 sense if all they did was fly to a new location. Mario's party barely looked like they were budged by the explosion, and the background outright shatters. The Japanese text and some points brought up in previous threads honestly still make this specific feat fair.

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah, this seems straightforward to me.

 

[AKM sama]

Mario's party barely looked like they were budged by the explosion, and the background outright shatters.

Because the explosion was clearly not big enough to affect Mario party and the latter is a transition effect.

 

[Ogbunabali]

It's pretty obvious they're meant to symbolize transition effects. Plus extraordinary claims and all that. So, I obviously agree.

 

[Starter_Pack]

We will see on the part of any potential Japanese scans and whatnot like DDM is trying to go for, but from my view, yeah, this is just a transition. I agree to boot it.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Also, the aftermath would make 0 sense if all they did was fly to a new location. Mario's party barely looked like they were budged by the explosion, and the background outright shatters.

The screen transitions aren’t literal representations of what’s happening considering they returned to the area that seemingly ripped apart after the boss fight.

 

[Starsprite53]

Because the explosion was clearly not big enough to affect Mario party and the latter is a transition effect.

I don't remember an explosion being a transition effect especially since the explosion happened after ya know brobot's defeat
and when the boss battle of Brobot begins, the screen rips in half and you're in space out of nowhere. When you defeat Brobot, the screen blows up and you're suddenly back to your original location. Also the green stuff below would further imply it's from Brobot and the background is quite different from World 4's backgrounds.

 

[Antvasima]

This is probably fine.

@Dino_Ranger_Black @GyroNutz

What do you think?

 

[KingTempest]

The OP looks fine

 

[DaReaperMan]

The OP looks fine Definitely not because solid Low 2-C Mario may be a thing...

 

[Paul_Frank]

The op makes sense to me

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Well here's the step forward, now we shall see about those two steps back.

OP looks good, I agree.

 

[GyroNutz]

Even in the last thread, there were many people who agreed with the stance and found the "feat" invalid (and there was no conclusive decision made then, but it's still on the profile). I propose that this be removed from the profiles.

That's not even the last thread. It was agreed upon in the continuation thread here.

Anyway, what Starsprite showed is a pretty clear indication that this is another realm. I'd say the cutting paper being a transition is fine, but the fact that the realm is shown to blow up + shatter is a very clear indication that it was destroyed (plus it's very different to the paper cutting transition, so it's hard to argue that they're both transitions).

Overall I'm not seeing any new arguments that haven't already been answered.

 

[Starsprite53]

Kek, no one payed attention to me

 

[AKM sama]

I see. I don't see anything in Star's comment that is an evidence of it being a different dimension. Seems like assumptions made because of different artistic choices to depict the space. You can't pick and choose the screen tearing in half as a transition effect and the screen blowing up as something that's not directly implied anywhere.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Anyway, what Starsprite showed is a pretty clear indication that this is another realm. I'd say the cutting paper being a transition is fine, but the fact that the realm is shown to blow up + shatter is a very clear indication that it was destroyed (plus it's very different to the paper cutting transition, so it's hard to argue that they're both transitions).

Yeah, no. They are both transitions. The second one is just a different one being applied due to the Brobot's explosion, hence why it shatters instead of being torn apart. It's purely for artistic purposes, and until I'm convinced otherwise, I stand by this not being worth squat towards a 4-A feat.

 

[GyroNutz]

You don't see how the Whoa Zone and the place where you fight Brobot look completely different?

But why would it follow that a paper tear, in a game with a paper artistic style, being used as a transition would mean that a large explosion + shattering animation would also be a transition? This isn't me picking and choosing, they're two separate effects.

 

[GyroNutz]

The second one is just a different one being applied due to the Brobot's explosion, hence why it shatters instead of being torn apart. It's purely for artistic purposes, and until I'm convinced otherwise, I stand by this not being worth squat towards a 4-A feat.

Similarly, I'm not going to accept the explosion + shattering being a transition because "it just is".

 

[Starter_Pack]

Two separate effects for two separate moods. The paper transition goes into the boss battle, where Mr. L can use the Brobot to its fullest extent, and the latter explosion transition shows the Brobot's defeat.

Occam's Razor dictates the simplest answer is often the correct one, and in this case, it's much simpler to say this was a cool transition in and out of a boss battle, rather than Mr. L creating a whole Multi-Solar System pocket dimension with the Brobot just to have it destroyed upon its defeat.

 

[AKM sama]

But why would it follow that a paper tear, in a game with a paper artistic style, being used as a transition would mean that a large explosion + shattering animation would also be a transition? This isn't me picking and choosing, they're two separate effects.

Two separate effects whose results are the same. According to you, the og realm tears apart and falls, thus destroyed. Same way, the explosion destroys the other realm that was magically created and has no mention of being there, and then the og realm is completely fine the next moment.

It is pretty clear that it's a transition effect because "it just is". You'd need far more explicit evidence for the claim because the claim is extraordinary and unfounded. We don't work with such flimsy assumptions and slight differences in artistic choices is unfortunately not enough evidence for this.

 

[Starsprite53]

Two separate effects for two separate moods. The paper transition goes into the boss battle, where Mr. L can use the Brobot to its fullest extent, and the latter explosion transition shows the Brobot's defeat.

What's the mood of paper transition again?

It is pretty clear that it's a transition effect because "it just is". You'd need far more explicit evidence for the claim because the claim is extraordinary and unfounded. We don't work with such flimsy assumptions and slight differences in artistic choices is unfortunately not enough evidence for this.

Yeah and you also have to prove it's a transition not because "it's just", again if they're back to outerspace why the background looks different, i want an answer with proof, why it's explosion transition specifically after brobot's explosion, how suddenly luigi falls in woah zone but not in outerspace? How will "transition" explain this

 

[AKM sama]

I'm not sure you're aware how burden of proof works. You need to provide a single direct evidence of there being a different realm which they were transported to. Until you do that, we have no reason to assume there is any realm existing, because the entire "realm" argument seems to be headcanon. Until you provide a real evidence of there being a realm, you can't claim it's a realm.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah and you also have to prove it's a transition not because "it's just", again if they're back to outerspace why the background looks different, i want an answer with proof, why it's explosion transition specifically after brobot's explosion, how suddenly luigi falls in woah zone but not in outerspace? How will "transition" explain this

No, you kinda are the one who's gotta give proof

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Gyro to be honest; while I do agree the tear is super vague, original Japanese text is more original and reliable than the English localization and primary canon sources such as the actual game are more priority than secondary canon sources made by 3rd party companies such as Prima guides. But as Starsprite has shown, there are indicators of the green waves indicating it's some kind of virtual reality as opposed to it being the same outerspace traveling earlier. Also, it literally makes 0 sense for the explosion of Brobot to just randomly teleport them back to the Whoa Zone. Which FYI is located beyond the edge of the universe.

No one is saying he magically created it, but he at the very least teleported to it and the dimension is associated with Brobot specifically. And said dimension literally explodes as mentioned above which just brings them back to Whoa Zone. The only way to make sense of that is for that to be a destroyed pocket dimension; saying Brobot just teleports the party back among death is even more assumptive. And it's a lot more reachy to assume they got launched uncountable lightyears away from the explosion.

 

[LuckyEmile]

Occam's Razor dictates the simplest answer is often the correct one, and in this case, it's much simpler to say this was a cool transition in and out of a boss battle, rather than Mr. L creating a whole Multi-Solar System pocket dimension with the Brobot just to have it destroyed upon its defeat.

In fairness, you could also use Occam's Razor to also claim it was created/destroyed by Brobot since it's heavily implied to be a created realm, what with the vectors and all, which requires less speculation as to why these would suddenly exist in space when they never did beforehand and how this area of space happens to resonate with Brobot so well... But as DarkDragonMedeus pointed out in a recent thread, Occam's Razor isn't the best thing to fall back upon, as there are issues with the approach and it can be better to think outside the box at times, so I guess we should probably not rely on it too deeply.

 

[Starter_Pack]

But as Starsprite has shown, there are indicators of the green waves indicating it's some kind of virtual reality as opposed to it being the same outerspace traveling earlier. Also, it literally makes 0 sense for the explosion of Brobot to just randomly teleport them back to the Whoa Zone. Which FYI is located beyond the edge of the universe.

Okay, but if it's a virtual space, then why would it immediately jump to 4-A? Because of the stars in the background? If this is virtual reality, what even proves that those are stars back there instead of some visual effect caused by the Brobot's virtual projection?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

We’re specifically not supposed to assume it was created without an explicit statement according to our Pocket Reality Feats page.

And Starter does bring up a good point, if it’s a virtual reality then why assume those are actual stars?

 

[AKM sama]

No one is saying he magically created it, but he at the very least teleported to it

This is like, more assumption. Any evidence that they were teleported to a separate dimension? Because I don't see any mention of it.

 

[Starsprite53]

I'm not sure you're aware how burden of proof works. You need to provide a single direct evidence of there being a different realm which they were transported to. Until you do that, we have no reason to assume there is any realm existing, because the entire "realm" argument seems to be headcanon. Until you provide a real evidence of there being a realm, you can't claim it's a realm.

And what's the proof of your claim that it's a transition? You do realize that the negative side also need proof and the scan can also benefits me, and you can't just go with your interpretation that it's "transition", your interpretation ain't more valid than our, again why the heck the background looks slightly different in this boss fight And why it have green lines or something, and in fact it's not only a location you can't find anywhere (You can even see how space looks in separate dimensions), but the second transition (or whatever you want to call it) shows it all break up and disappear as soon as he is defeated. Mario is shown standing still but Luigi is falling?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Before the transition, there were in this Whoa Zone, aka this.

They also had to literally cross the universe before arriving to the place to begin with. As the title of previous chapters being called cross the universe in Japanese. But now they're not, can even be pocket dimension or just outerspace; aka dimensional teleportation either way.

As for why the dimensions are considered real, Mr L also does describe it as an entire body of space. Which DT's lists actually does say actual bodies of spaces are real stars; it's mostly like painted wall papers in a thrown room or Illusion manipulation is where the problems come from. But it was agreed realms described as literal bodies of spaces have stars in them as brought up by Andy, Ultima Reality, and DontTalkDT on the previous thread.

 

[SamanPatou]

I agree with removing it, I agree in the past and I agree now.

I'm not going to follow this debate, but there are no proof Brobot created that place nor that it was entirely destroyed. Imho, they got forcibly teleported there and just returned back once Brobot and its influence were gone.

 

[Starter_Pack]

I'm just gonna borrow this, because I know this is gonna be your ace in the hole.

In this space, Brobot's power can reach its 100%!

As stated in the Pocket Reality Feats page:

However, before such feats can be considered valid, there must be conclusive evidence that the pocket reality in question was created by a certain character, and that they didn't simply transport other characters to one that existed previously.

There is no such statement saying that Mr. L or the Brobot created this space. Only that his power is at its greatest while in it, which is what I said before. This is just a transition to a boss room, that goes through another transition out of it when the Brobot is destroyed.

 

[Starsprite53]

boss room

This kinda proves my point?

 

[GyroNutz]

Two separate effects whose results are the same. According to you, the og realm tears apart and falls, thus destroyed. Same way, the explosion destroys the other realm that was magically created and has no mention of being there, and then the og realm is completely fine the next moment.

It is pretty clear that it's a transition effect because "it just is". You'd need far more explicit evidence for the claim because the claim is extraordinary and unfounded. We don't work with such flimsy assumptions and slight differences in artistic choices is unfortunately not enough evidence for this.

Why do the effects have to be the same? Why are they either both transition effects or neither of them transition effects, knowing that the two effects look very different?

The current assumptions on your side are that Mario + Brobot flew up to outer space during the transition despite no indication of vertical movement, that the area that Mario + Brobot fight is Outer Space despite the clear visual difference (+ the green lines being Mr L/Luigi's signature colour) and that the explosion + shattering is just a transition.

Also, this is the Japanese text for the fight. Apparently, the translation for it is "In this space, Brobot's power can reach its 100%!", implying that it's a separate place from outer space.

 

[GyroNutz]

I'm just gonna borrow this, because I know this is gonna be your ace in the hole.

There is no such statement saying that Mr. L or the Brobot created this space. Only that his power is at its greatest while in it, which is what I said before. This is just a transition to a boss room, that goes through another transition out of it when the Brobot is destroyed.

Also, this wouldn't debunk the destruction of the realm, just the creation. Which like no one is arguing for at this point.